That's a bit of a logical fallacy there. Messi and Neymar could be very good, but still made to look even better by their team, while Pedro and others may just not be as good.
Is Neymar about to overtake Ronaldo
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That's a bit of a logical fallacy there. Messi and Neymar could be very good, but still made to look even better by their team, while Pedro and others may just not be as good.
Isn't that the point of my entire argument?
No, you said that if it was true that "Messi won't be as great without Xavi and Iniesta" then "every attacker signed by Barca in the last decade or so would be as great as Neymar". That is not the case.
I think I'd probably hold back a full judgement on ranking Neymar ahead of Ronaldo till the end of the season, or the latter stages if it's looking more and more obvious that he is, but he's certainly been performing better than him lately. Considering he's a lot younger too, seems like it's only inevitable until he'll generally be recognised as the better player, even if it takes a couple of years and Ronaldo does find some of his best form again.
Read my post again. I said it's the whole "Messi won't be as great without Xavi and Iniesta" argument over again.....which is nonsense.
This is what i was arguing against. If this were the case - having top players in every position, then every attacker(in the last decade for Barca) would be as good as Neymar.
I know... I just quoted those very words in fact. I'm really not sure what you're arguing against here - I'm not even a believe in that "Messi won't be as great without Xavi and Iniesta" argument (unless you put the "as" in massive italics), but there's no denying that the logic of your post doesn't hold. Specifically:
No they wouldn't. They would be better than their own natural level, but that doesn't necesarily mean they would be as good as Neymar.
I can honestly say i have no idea what you're criticising. I'm not sure what you agree or disagree on, and judging by the fact that you rushed to take my quote out of context, i really don't think you're here to understand.
So.......you agree with me then?
Out of context? That's a pretty lame effort. Here's your whole post again - I've highlighted the two sentences which are clearly layed out as a a sequential argument, but whihc are demonstrably wrong. To make it even cclearer I've also put the words "If that were the case" in italics:
Again. Not sure what you're criticising. This bit........
.......was in response to the theory that Neymar (just like Messi was accused in the past) won't be as effective - or standout without certain players by his side (players who are the best at their various positions). Which is obviously bullshit, as Messi and now Neymar have shown levels of individual brilliance, which suggests they'd be just as good in different teams - as we saw in the World Cup with Brazil.
This is all part of my entire argument criticising the theory that compared to Ronaldo, Neymar is only this good because of the players around him, which if this were to be the case - then the other attackers Barca have had in the last decade would be just as good as Neymar - which was clearly not the case.
Ultimately suggesting that Neymar's stats and performances are primarily down to his abilities and not the players around him.
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Stop obsessing over goals.
That may be the case but this isn't a comparison between Neymar and any of those players - it's one between Neymar and Ronaldo. What some may argue is that their respective teams are a factor in THAT comparison. To generally claim that any Barca attacker is automatically turned into a world beater because of the system - is clearly idiotic. But it's nevertheless possible that Neymar benefits from playing in a fluid, well functioning system to an extent which makes him look better than Ronaldo - at the moment - without actually being better with all externals being equal.
I personally find even that argument somewhat spurious, given that their respective roles aren't identical by any stretch - but there you go. It's not a positively illogical argument at any rate.
To be clearer: The question isn't whether Barca makes Neymar a top player in some sort of "artificial" fashion (which is a silly idea), but whether Barca makes him a better player than Ronaldo, specifically.
His performances for Brazil are neither here nor there, one could also add, unless one thinks these are so impressive that they alone elevate him above Ronaldo's level. To cite them as proof that he can play football beyond Barca is beside the point - as, again, the question is whether he's better than Ronaldo, not whether he's a top player.
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Right, some seem to be hinting towards Neymar overtaking Messi as the greatest footballer of all time.
Balls on the chopper: will Neymar ever overtake peak Messi, ie, will he be regarded as the better footballer at the end of both careers?
Naaaaah.
Balls on the chopper: will Neymar ever overtake peak Messi, ie, will he be regarded as the better footballer at the end of both careers?
Naaaaah.
I'd like to see Neymar in more a difficult position before he can be properly accessed. Right now the entire Barca team are on song, and Neymar is also benefiting from it. Barca swept every competition available to them last season, there wasn't even a team remotely close to their class. Would be interesting to see how he performs when they hit a major slump.
Ronaldo is at the stage of his career where he already has nothing left to prove. He already proved his mantle both for us and Real and also his ability to play as sole attacking force in a lesser team. People will point to Neymar's performances for Brazil, but then again, what exactly Brazil achieved on the international stage?
Ronaldo is at the stage of his career where he already has nothing left to prove. He already proved his mantle both for us and Real and also his ability to play as sole attacking force in a lesser team. People will point to Neymar's performances for Brazil, but then again, what exactly Brazil achieved on the international stage?
Agreed.
You mean like losing the best player in the world, in a team relatively weaker than that of last season. Or his performances for the Brazilian national team?
Agh, you just did it again, do you really not understand? I don't even care about the actual point, it's just the repetition of this terrible use of logic!
Right, let's assume for a second that Neymar is only this good because of the players around him. Let's say that otherwise he would be about as good as Aguero... still exceptional, but a couple of places lower in most people's list of the world's best.
Now, would this mean that any player who gets to play in the barca team would do as well as Neymar (as you have explicitly stated)? No, it doesn't, it just means that they would do a bit better than they would at any other team.
By last year I meant at the end of the season.
I know Ronaldo posted probably his best numbers in terms of goals but I still didnt think much of his general play. Its kind of hard to explain, and I fully understand how ridicolous it may sound.
Its similar to maybe comparing Iniesta to Lampard in his prime. Lampard would always post the better numbers but I still think Iniesta is the better player.
I think you have misconstrued my points,yet again. I haven't said any player who gets to play for Barca would do as well as Neymar, rather the opposite - as I'm trying to refute an argument that suggests - Neymar is only this good because of the players around him.
My argument - If Neymar is only this good because of x players around him, then the other players before him should have been just as good as him - which certainly wasn't the case. So, in all essence, Neymar's abilities are primarily responsible.
You seem to be arguing the same thing, only you have totally misunderstood my previous points.
I think the interesting way of looking at this would be to ask who would you rather have at United in the summer, Neymar or Ronaldo? Have to say the answer for me would be Neymar, currently he plays more like the Ronaldo I loved to watch, he has flair, style and trickery which sadly Ronaldo has abandoned from his game, don't get me wrong Ronaldo is extremely efficient, and efficiency wins you games, but people watch football to be entertained too, Neymar is currently offering a decent combination of efficiency and style.
Maybe one day Neymar will go the way Ronaldo has and become a goal scoring monster, I really hope he doesn't mind because Ronaldo losing his flair was a travesty and I don't think Neymar is as good as Messi to be able to score as many goals as Ronaldo but still be the best player to actually watch play.
Maybe one day Neymar will go the way Ronaldo has and become a goal scoring monster, I really hope he doesn't mind because Ronaldo losing his flair was a travesty and I don't think Neymar is as good as Messi to be able to score as many goals as Ronaldo but still be the best player to actually watch play.
Goals are the main reason why Messi is regarded as equal to Maradona or even better than him. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a contest at all and Messi would be Cruyff's level at best, given that Cruyff was far more impressive for the Netherlands than Messi for Argentina. Football is a game of goals after all. So, let not underestimate goals. Stop depict Messi as the Messi-ah and notice the greatness of other players.
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Neymar atm reminds me of Ronaldo in 2006-2007, but at a higher level.
Oh my God, I know - and that is exactly what I have just explained is not true. To repeat yet again:
If Neymar is only this good because of x players around him, then it absolutely does not follow that the other players before him should have been just as good as him.
I think I may give up here, I'm not sure you've got any concept of hypothetical argument.
If you compare their performances in the WCs, well, they are as different as day and night. Messi is a wonderful playmaker, Maradona was a notch above in this respect though. And Maradona was a true leader on the pitch. I think that Messi, because of the goals, is ultimately the greater player, but otherwise Maradona would be the clear winner.
It apparently should. If Neymar is only this good, primarily because of x players around him, then the other players (Sanchez,Pedro) should have been as good as him,given the nature of that Barcelona side under Pep (Prime Xavi,Iniesta,Messi,etc), but they weren't. Suggesting it is primarily about an individuals ability first and foremost, which is essentially my point.
Seems to me like you've just jumped into an argument between two people to criticise the same argument you're trying to make.
But the last part clearly shows that Neymar and Messi are very good/great because the attackers you guys are talking about aren't Welbeck and Nani but Ibrahimovic, Sanchez and Villa - great attackers in their own right as shown by their exploits elsewhere. It's not like Ronaldo was playing with Gibson and Cleverley either because Ozil, Di Maria, Alonso and Benzema are top players in their own right and maybe if Madrid, as a team, weren't so Ronaldo centric or if he Ronaldo did not freeze other aspects of his general play, over the years, could have won much more.
Neymar had been incredible over the last twelve months but I think it's too early to declare him a better player than Ronaldo.
I notice the greatness of Neymar. It's not even arguable that there's a gulf in class between him (and any other current player) compared to Messi though.
As far as I'm concerned the CL and the big three leagues are the Test level of football, the elite and everything else, including international football is like the County, the Big Bash, the Shield etc - auditions for a spot in the Test squad i.e. a big move to the big time. What Messi and Ronaldo have achieved is enough for me without the WC, COPAs or the Euros because it's more difficult to maintain that level for over half a decade like they have done.
I'm talking about situations like the rubber match against Porto at the Dragao, playing up-front alone for a team several levels below this Barca team. Or against Barca at the Copa Del-Rey final, once again playing as the lone forward with a midfield that consisted of Pepe who had no intention to play football. Or against Athletico in a high-pressure match where they had the team under the cosh and a certain man scored a hat-trick to rescue the team.
Neymar is playing very well at the moment, but I think it is a little too early make claims. All I'm saying is that he hasn't exactly been 'tested' enough.
Neymar is the best player around at the moment (with Messi injured). Suarez and Lewandowski make up the top 3. Ronaldo fourth.
Neymar will never be as good as Messi was at his peak, though.
Neymar will never be as good as Messi was at his peak, though.
Blaming Madrid's trophy paucity in recent years on Ronaldo is... Stupid. No other way to say it.
You couldn't be more wrong. Ronaldo has been a excellent and prolific goalscorer for Portugal, but he never really was our "sole attacking force" like Forlan for Uruguay in 2010 or many other examples. I'd say the major thing distinguishing Ronaldo from someone like Pauleta in the NT is his longevity. I don't remember a single instance where he, on his own, changed a losing performance into a winning one. When we're playing bad, he's usually as bad as the rest, and has been pretty consistent at that.
At some point he was more dynamic than he his today, much like in his club career, but there was always something missing on his ability to run a game for us. We always expected more. To the point that only in the play-off against Sweden (just two years ago) people started saying "he's finally shown what he can do for Portugal". Still the assists he got on that game were nearly as brilliant as the goals themselves, so it didn't change the fact that he's dependent on his team-mates to make the difference.
And considering how underwhelming Brazil has been lately, I think Neymar has, plenty of times, been a lot closer to that concept of "sole attacking force" for Brazil than Ronaldo has for Portugal.
You could easily pick out similar circumstances in Neymar's career (or any other player for that matter) where he has stepped up to the challenge. You can't knock Neymar for not overcoming the types of adversities Ronaldo (or any other player) has had to face, whilst also ignoring his own adversities.
You can only overcome what's infront of you. A strong(er) argument could be made in favour of Ronaldo, but saying Neymar hasn't been tested enough, because he hasn't been in Ronaldo-type situations, isn't necessarily a fair one.
To each his own, i guess.
I know Neymar was great in the World Cup until his injury, but he spunked his Copa America down the toilet. Does be have more international pedigree that I'm missing?
Didn't mean it to come out that way, I feel that Real have never, serve the time they won the CL two years ago, really develop a style of play, especially in attack, that maximized the potential of their attack. With the players they have had over the years they haven't been that effective and as great as that Barca side was it was stoppable as evidenced by how they didn't manage to retain the CL or win the Liga/Copa double everytime. On Ronaldo, I think when he cut out other aspects of his game to get to where he is right now he lost a lot of the things that made him unstoppable when he was still here but his singular focus on goals has lessened his influence on the big games where the destination of trophies is determined. Sure you can score a number of tap ins and headers but when things are really tight, like they were for Barca against Bayern last season at the Nou Camp, Ronaldo has lost that little bit extra to do what Messi did and turn the tie on it's head. I don't think that the change occured because he declined but it was by choice and that imagination, that overall play could have been key in a few close matches that Madrid lost/failed to win over the years.
Blaming Madrid's trophy paucity in recent years on Ronaldo is... Stupid. No other way to say it.
Has scored a ridiculous amount of goals for Brazil and is only 24 or something, that's pretty solid.
Anyone else think he should have a decent shot at this year's ballon d'or? Just had a look at odds and you can still get 20/1.
Messi clear favourite (despite missing quite a few games ), followed by Ronaldo
Messi clear favourite (despite missing quite a few games ), followed by Ronaldo
He's in such run of form that if Neymar played for Madrid saturday, and like Sanchez or Pedro replaced him for Barça, I honestlty feel like Madrid wins