Is Neymar about to overtake Ronaldo

Iniesta has actually been pretty average for a couple of years now by his standards, but that performance has many people claiming he's the best midfielder in the world and the like. Great what one performance can do for your image.


Genuine question, because people do question this, was Zidane super consistent at club level every time he won the player of the year award? Iniesta has enough big performances like zidane did, for club and country to have, in the absence of Messi and Ronaldo, had as good a shout as anyone (along with Xavi).

Myth. He declined slightly and others took the spotlight but nothing about him is or was "average". We can bump the Manchester City, PSG, Juventus match threads from last season. I very much remember people here were always in awe of Iniesta. Just because he doesn't put in memorable performances like the Clasico last week consistently anymore doesn't mean he's "average" in other games.

In a weird way Iniesta's ability to put in greater performances than usual in the biggest of games is now somehow held against him and mistakenly reverted as if he's shit the other times.
 
He never was the most consistent but in most big games he would grab the attention with great performances and class. He's very like Iniesta in this regard as you said, Zidane didn't have players like Messi and Ronaldo to compete against. If he were playing in our current era, he wouldn't have won a single B.O either.
Well it gets very hypothetical. If Zidane was playing today, he'd likely be playing for a team that gets 90-100 points and scores 150+ goals. He'd probably find it a lot easier to be consistent in that sort of environment. By contrast, he played in a sticky Serie A and a highly competitive La Liga where bread-and-butter games were routinely deadlocked unless he did something special. Would he have got a Ballon D'Or in the last few years? Possibly, it would depend on who he's playing for and what level of opportunity he's got to shine. He'd certainly have the ability to do so. As would the other greats from that era in Ronaldo and Rivaldo.
 
Yes. Until 1991, when the FIFA World Player of the Year award was created.

I think you are too young to know about this, because you have to be making this up. FIFA World Player of the Year was always a secondary award.
 
It may be the most prestigious individual award in football but its a shit award with respect to the bias towards the type of player likely to win it. It very rarely gets awarded to defenders for example, approximately 4? defenders or goalkeepers have won the award in its entire history.

Sure - I nevertheless find the tangent slightly bizarre. I commented that Owen's 41 goals in 2001 won him a ballon d'or in response to a graphic showing seven strikers who have scored 49+ goals before december this year and how I think it shows it's a good era for strikers these days.

But yeah, let's talk about the bias against defenders in Ballon d'ors, y'all. I can dig.
 
I think you are too young to know about this, because you have to be making this up. FIFA World Player of the Year was always a secondary award.

From Wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Player_of_the_Year

The FIFA World Player of the Year is an association football award presented to the female player voted as best in the world by coaches and captains of international teams. It began in 1991 as an award for the best men's player in the world, and from 2001 to 2009 both men's and women's awards were presented. As of 2010, the equivalent men's award is the FIFA Ballon d'Or.[1] In a voting system based onpositional voting, each coach has three votes, worth five points, three points and one point, and the three finalists are ordered based on total number of points.
 
Well it gets very hypothetical. If Zidane was playing today, he'd likely be playing for a team that gets 90-100 points and scores 150+ goals. He'd probably find it a lot easier to be consistent in that sort of environment. By contrast, he played in a sticky Serie A and a highly competitive La Liga where bread-and-butter games were routinely deadlocked unless he did something special. Would he have got a Ballon D'Or in the last few years? Possibly, it would depend on who he's playing for and what level of opportunity he's got to shine. He'd certainly have the ability to do so. As would the other greats from that era in Ronaldo and Rivaldo.

None of them had the ability to go toe to toe with Messi. They'd be clear also-rans like everyone else in this era.
 
From Wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Player_of_the_Year

The FIFA World Player of the Year is an association football award presented to the female player voted as best in the world by coaches and captains of international teams. It began in 1991 as an award for the best men's player in the world, and from 2001 to 2009 both men's and women's awards were presented. As of 2010, the equivalent men's award is the FIFA Ballon d'Or.[1] In a voting system based onpositional voting, each coach has three votes, worth five points, three points and one point, and the three finalists are ordered based on total number of points.

sigh. And WTF are you on about here? I am well aware they got merged in 2010. We are talking about before that.
 
None of them had the ability to go toe to toe with Messi. They'd be clear also-rans like everyone else in this era.
So they wouldn't compete for a single Ballon D'Or and Messi would win every one between 2008 and 2015? Of course Messi is the pick of the bunch, but it doesn't mean he wins every Ballon through his career, and it's clear the others are talented enough to win one with a fair wind.
 
None of them had the ability to go toe to toe with Messi. They'd be clear also-rans like everyone else in this era.
Brazilian Ronaldo easily could have -- likes of Ronaldinho and Zidane too imo.
 
Never mind lol. I can see we are not getting anywhere here. Good luck and best wishes

Sorry if I got a bit rough there. Just a bit twilighty zoney for me there for a moment. It's all good and cheers for taking it in good spirit.
thumbs-up-smiley%5B1%5D.gif
 
Myth. He declined slightly and others took the spotlight but nothing about him is or was "average". We can bump the Manchester City, PSG, Juventus match threads from last season. I very much remember people here were always in awe of Iniesta. Just because he doesn't put in memorable performances like the Clasico last week consistently anymore doesn't mean he's "average" in other games.

In a weird way Iniesta's ability to put in greater performances than usual in the biggest of games is now somehow held against him and mistakenly reverted as if he's shit the other times.

Agree. He's slightly declined, but his role in the current team has changed as well. He can still dominate the big games like he used to.

When on form, he's still the best central midfielder in the world.

I rate Modric highly, but he couldn't even get near Iniesta in the Clasico.
 
None of them had the ability to go toe to toe with Messi. They'd be clear also-rans like everyone else in this era.

Indeed. They'd be about on par with the likes of Xavi and Iniesta and would have the same chance of finishing ahead of Messi/Ronaldo as those two did.
 
So they wouldn't compete for a single Ballon D'Or and Messi would win every one between 2008 and 2015? Of course Messi is the pick of the bunch, but it doesn't mean he wins every Ballon through his career, and it's clear the others are talented enough to win one with a fair wind.

They might for a single year - but even then I am not sure. There have been years where there have been strong contenders for teams who won more. But then Messi went and broke the alltime scoring record or some other nonsense. His consistency has been mindblowing.

Maybe in the years C.Ronaldo won it they could have been in with a shot.
 
I think you are too young to know about this, because you have to be making this up. FIFA World Player of the Year was always a secondary award.

This has absolutely nothing to do with age. The Ballon d'or stopped being the most coveted prize in world football, when the WPOTY award was created in 1991.
You can tell just by the looking at the winners that the original ballon d'or was geared towards the European leagues, and voted for by European journalists, giving it somewhat of a continental feel, as opposed to the WPOTY which was less restricted - despite the rule change in 95 allowing non Europeans to win it, some of the winners of the ballon d'or weren't necessarily the best in the world.

FIFA WPOTY
1991 Lothar Matthaus(Germany & Inter Milan)
1992 Marco Van Basten (Holland & AC Milan)
1993 Roberto Baggio (Italy & Juventus)
1994 Romario (Brazil & Barcelona)
1995 George Weah (Liberia & AC Milan)
1996 Ronaldo (Brazil & Barcelona)
1997 Ronaldo (Brazil & Inter Milan)
1998 Zinedine Zidane (France & Juventus)
1999 Rivaldo (Brazil & Barcelona)
2000 Zinedine Zidane (France & Juventus)
2001 Luis Figo (Portugal & Real Madrid)
2002 Ronaldo (Brazil & Real Madrid)
2003 Zinedine Zidane (France & Real Madrid)
2004 Ronaldinho (Brazil & Barcelona)
2005 Ronaldinho (Brazil & Barcelona)
2006 Fabio Cannavaro(Italy & Real Madrid)
2007 Kaka (Brazil & AC Milan)
2008 Cristiano Ronaldo (Portugal & Manchester United)
2009 Lionel Messi (Argentina & Barcelona)

Ballon d'or
1991
Jean-Pierre Papin
1992 Marco van Basten
1993 Roberto Baggio
1994 Hristo Stoichkov
1995 George Weah
1996 Matthias Sammer
1997 Ronaldo
1998 Zinedine Zidane
1999 Rivaldo
2000 Luis Figo
2001 Michael Owen
2002 Ronaldo
2003 Pavel Nedved
2004 Andriy Shevchenko
2005 Ronaldinho
2006 Fabio Cannavaro
2007 Kaka
2008 Cristiano Ronaldo
2009 Lionel Messi

How Michael Owen won the Ballon d'Or WITHOUT being crowned the world's best footballer
Read more at http://talksport.com/football/how-m...t-footballer-141202127287#8tZfmm3OOgdquEHv.99

[Extract] ..............All of which convinced a panel of sports journalists from around Europe to award Owen the 2001 Ballon d'Or, ahead of Real Madrid's Raul.

But it wasn't the Ballon d'Or which Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo and Manuel Neuer hope to claim in January, having been shortlisted for the 2014 prize that will crown the world's best player this year.

Instead, the original Ballon d'Or – which ran from 1956 to 2009 – was an award organised by France Football magazine and given to the European Footballer of the Year.

Until 1995, only European players playing for European clubs were eligible for the original Ballon d'Or, meaning the likes of Pele and Diego Maradona weren't considered for the honour, despite the latter playing for Napoli with distinction (although both players were later awarded honorary Ballon d'Ors).

Africa's George Weah became the first non-European winner in 1995, thanks to his form with AC Milan, while Owen's 2001 win was the fourth for an English player after Sir Stanley Matthews (the inaugural winner in 1956), Sir Bobby Charlton (1966) and Kevin Keegan (twice, in 1978 and 1979).

Meanwhile, in 1991 FIFA introduced a global award to crown the world's best player, with Germany's 1990 World Cup-winning captain Lothar Matthaus the first winner of the FIFA World Player of the Year.

A decade later, Portugal's Luis Figo was crowned FIFA World Player of the Year (with David Beckham as runner up and Raul third, pictured below), while Ballon d'Or winner Owen finished eighth in the voting.

This argument is neither here not there at the end of the day, if you feel the French award was more prestigious, more power to you.
 
People are writing Ronaldo off too soon. He'll still end up with 50+ goals this season.

This time last year people were saying Barca are finished as a team, it's flavour of the month stuff (not saying Neymar is flavour of the month before people jump on me) to see Ronaldo has been below par this season and jump on the declined bandwagon.

Let's see how the season plays out.
 
People are writing Ronaldo off too soon. He'll still end up with 50+ goals this season.

This time last year people were saying Barca are finished as a team, it's flavour of the month stuff (not saying Neymar is flavour of the month before people jump on me) to see Ronaldo has been below par this season and jump on the declined bandwagon.

Let's see how the season plays out.

I'd be surprised if Ronaldo hits 50+ this season. His finishing has declined this season I think. He's not scored in 9 of his last 12 games if I recall correctly.

And I believe 8 of his La Liga goals came in 2 games.
 
I think if Neymar is hungry he leaves Barça this season. For his brand, its not good to be Messi's servant, plus the whole athletes being competitive (Michael Jordan would never want to join forces with Magic Johnson). The story of tax problems also.. United should go hard for him.
 
So they wouldn't compete for a single Ballon D'Or and Messi would win every one between 2008 and 2015? Of course Messi is the pick of the bunch, but it doesn't mean he wins every Ballon through his career, and it's clear the others are talented enough to win one with a fair wind.
There would also be Cristiano to compete with.
 
I think if Neymar is hungry he leaves Barça this season. For his brand, its not good to be Messi's servant, plus the whole athletes being competitive (Michael Jordan would never want to join forces with Magic Johnson). The story of tax problems also.. United should go hard for him.
His chances to win trophies are the highest at Barca. If he wants that, he stays. Barca is probably the strongest team again and once they can buy / register new players they will be even stronger. I doubt he sees himself as a servant and all the other stories wont influence his move. It's tactics to make Barca solve it
 
Neymar controlling the ball before the 5th (?) goal yesterday against Roma... maybe the best I have ever seen. (A GIF would be appreciated)
 
It was a confident bit of showmanship but a fairly straightforward touch for any professional.
 
This has absolutely nothing to do with age. The Ballon d'or stopped being the most coveted prize in world football, when the WPOTY award was created in 1991.
You can tell just by the looking at the winners that the original ballon d'or was geared towards the European leagues, and voted for by European journalists, giving it somewhat of a continental feel, as opposed to the WPOTY which was less restricted - despite the rule change in 95 allowing non Europeans to win it, some of the winners of the ballon d'or weren't necessarily the best in the world.

FIFA WPOTY
1991 Lothar Matthaus(Germany & Inter Milan)
1992 Marco Van Basten (Holland & AC Milan)
1993 Roberto Baggio (Italy & Juventus)
1994 Romario (Brazil & Barcelona)
1995 George Weah (Liberia & AC Milan)
1996 Ronaldo (Brazil & Barcelona)
1997 Ronaldo (Brazil & Inter Milan)
1998 Zinedine Zidane (France & Juventus)
1999 Rivaldo (Brazil & Barcelona)
2000 Zinedine Zidane (France & Juventus)
2001 Luis Figo (Portugal & Real Madrid)
2002 Ronaldo (Brazil & Real Madrid)
2003 Zinedine Zidane (France & Real Madrid)
2004 Ronaldinho (Brazil & Barcelona)
2005 Ronaldinho (Brazil & Barcelona)
2006 Fabio Cannavaro(Italy & Real Madrid)
2007 Kaka (Brazil & AC Milan)
2008 Cristiano Ronaldo (Portugal & Manchester United)
2009 Lionel Messi (Argentina & Barcelona)

Ballon d'or
1991
Jean-Pierre Papin
1992 Marco van Basten
1993 Roberto Baggio
1994 Hristo Stoichkov
1995 George Weah
1996 Matthias Sammer
1997 Ronaldo
1998 Zinedine Zidane
1999 Rivaldo
2000 Luis Figo
2001 Michael Owen
2002 Ronaldo
2003 Pavel Nedved
2004 Andriy Shevchenko
2005 Ronaldinho
2006 Fabio Cannavaro
2007 Kaka
2008 Cristiano Ronaldo
2009 Lionel Messi

How Michael Owen won the Ballon d'Or WITHOUT being crowned the world's best footballer
Read more at http://talksport.com/football/how-m...t-footballer-141202127287#8tZfmm3OOgdquEHv.99

[Extract] ..............All of which convinced a panel of sports journalists from around Europe to award Owen the 2001 Ballon d'Or, ahead of Real Madrid's Raul.

But it wasn't the Ballon d'Or which Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo and Manuel Neuer hope to claim in January, having been shortlisted for the 2014 prize that will crown the world's best player this year.

Instead, the original Ballon d'Or – which ran from 1956 to 2009 – was an award organised by France Football magazine and given to the European Footballer of the Year.

Until 1995, only European players playing for European clubs were eligible for the original Ballon d'Or, meaning the likes of Pele and Diego Maradona weren't considered for the honour, despite the latter playing for Napoli with distinction (although both players were later awarded honorary Ballon d'Ors).

Africa's George Weah became the first non-European winner in 1995, thanks to his form with AC Milan, while Owen's 2001 win was the fourth for an English player after Sir Stanley Matthews (the inaugural winner in 1956), Sir Bobby Charlton (1966) and Kevin Keegan (twice, in 1978 and 1979).

Meanwhile, in 1991 FIFA introduced a global award to crown the world's best player, with Germany's 1990 World Cup-winning captain Lothar Matthaus the first winner of the FIFA World Player of the Year.

A decade later, Portugal's Luis Figo was crowned FIFA World Player of the Year (with David Beckham as runner up and Raul third, pictured below), while Ballon d'Or winner Owen finished eighth in the voting.

This argument is neither here not there at the end of the day, if you feel the French award was more prestigious, more power to you.
The Ballon d'Or was the more prestigious of the two, always. You're the first person I know who claims otherwise. And @RedFish is the second. I'm truly baffled. That is the very reason they merged it and still call it Ballon d'Or. It was around for a lot longer and got far more publicity. The whole 'it's only European footballer of the year award' thing is totally irrelevant, basically: after FIFA created their award, only players playing in Europe won it anyway. And from 1995, non-Europeans could win the Ballon d'Or as well.
 
I don't get this idea he would want to leave because of a Messi. Top players want to play with top players. That excuse isn't even worth discussing.
 
The Ballon d'Or was the more prestigious of the two, always. You're the first person I know who claims otherwise. And @RedFish is the second. I'm truly baffled. That is the very reason they merged it and still call it Ballon d'Or. It was around for a lot longer and got far more publicity. The whole 'it's only European footballer of the year award' thing is totally irrelevant, basically: after FIFA created their award, only players playing in Europe won it anyway. And from 1995, non-Europeans could win the Ballon d'Or as well.

Agree to disagree. To avoid derailing the thread(even more).
 
Myth. He declined slightly and others took the spotlight but nothing about him is or was "average". We can bump the Manchester City, PSG, Juventus match threads from last season. I very much remember people here were always in awe of Iniesta. Just because he doesn't put in memorable performances like the Clasico last week consistently anymore doesn't mean he's "average" in other games.

In a weird way Iniesta's ability to put in greater performances than usual in the biggest of games is now somehow held against him and mistakenly reverted as if he's shit the other times.
There's no myth. His level has massively dropped in recent times. If you're going to ignore the relevant bit of the sentence where it says "by his standards", then you'll come to a misplaced understanding of other people's perceptions as you have in the last bolded line.

Iniesta is always going to be a good footballer. But he's been well below par as per his usual level for the last couple of seasons. That's a far cry from "he's shit". It's an acknowledgment that a great footballer hadn't been great barring the odd CL tie here and there for a good while. And there's nothing wrong with that. It'd hardly as of Giggs and Scholes were consistently amazing season in season out. Even great players have dips.

And it really has nothing to do with what you state in the last two lines. If anything, Iniesta's big game performances of late have masked his overall, particularly in the eyes of those who don't watch Barcelona regularly in la liga.
 
Where does he rank among the worlds best right now?

Tuesday there were at least 3 better players on the pitch. He wasn't playing particularly well. We know he can do tricks, this one wasn't very functional So either this match made him rank lower, or this is his normal level of performance, and ranking him among the worlds best doesn't make sense at all.

This is hyping, as is expected concerning a Brazilian player wearing nike.
 
Tuesday there were at least 3 better players on the pitch. He wasn't playing particularly well. We know he can do tricks, this one wasn't very functional So either this match made him rank lower, or this is his normal level of performance, and ranking him among the worlds best doesn't make sense at all.

This is hyping, as is expected concerning a Brazilian player wearing nike.

What the hell? He was fantastic on Tuesday!

If that wasn't a particularly good performance you have crazily high standards.
 
Tuesday there were at least 3 better players on the pitch. He wasn't playing particularly well. We know he can do tricks, this one wasn't very functional So either this match made him rank lower, or this is his normal level of performance, and ranking him among the worlds best doesn't make sense at all.

This is hyping, as is expected concerning a Brazilian player wearing nike.
PeterStorey in disguise???
 
The Ballon d'Or was the more prestigious of the two, always. You're the first person I know who claims otherwise. And @RedFish is the second. I'm truly baffled. That is the very reason they merged it and still call it Ballon d'Or. It was around for a lot longer and got far more publicity. The whole 'it's only European footballer of the year award' thing is totally irrelevant, basically: after FIFA created their award, only players playing in Europe won it anyway. And from 1995, non-Europeans could win the Ballon d'Or as well.

This. The Ballon d'Or was clearly the more prestigious award.
 
What the hell? He was fantastic on Tuesday!

If that wasn't a particularly good performance you have crazily high standards.

Agreed. He was the best player on the pitch and involved in every single goal despite not scoring or assisting himself (mainly due to the linesman getting almost everything wrong, otherwise he had a sure assist and probably a goal 1 on 1 with the keeper).

 
In terms of performance, yes.
In terms of end products, very close this year.
In terms of consistency, still too early to judge.
 
What the hell? He was fantastic on Tuesday!

If that wasn't a particularly good performance you have crazily high standards.
What standard could be higher than a worlds best player ranking? I'm not the one coming up with the highest of standards, and I wouldn't. He's a world class player, very skilled, but he's hyped. "He was involved in every goal", it's Barcelona, they move the ball around before scoring, a lot of players are involved in a goal. Stats are beeing thrown, there about 30 pages of well edited YT-video's about him, and more than a few from his sponsors, speculation about best player award, transfer rumours with ridiculous money won't be long now. This Neymar brand has got to be sold as the best in the world, well I'm just looking at the match and I'm not buying it.