Is Gareth Southgate a shiite England manager?

Didn't watch the game, but have just seen extended highlights, and based on that it would be harsh to criticize Southgate for the game. At least it seems like England came out really well for the game, and they created at least as much as France. One of those games that can either way based on a bit of luck, finishing, etc.

He will get criticism for game management, which may be valid, but arguably England can take more from this World Cup than the one in 2018, and perhaps even the Euro's last year. It's just that they met the best side relatively early in the tournament.
 
England need another CM. Henderson is dog shit - I think even a 2021 version of Phillips would've been quite useful for England yesterday

There's truth to this, Henderson has really struggled to hit any kind of form this season. Phillips was so unlucky with his injury, i think he would have started, if he had been fully fit and match ready. You really lack a point of reference in the midfield. All chips are on Bellingham to become that player. The talent is certainly there, as is the risk to place an unnecessary burden on his shoulders.

The thing is that even Rice, despite being excellent and very reliable at what he does best, is a rather limited footballer by modern standards. Add the tendency of English football to produce a certain breed of attacking midfielders whose role play "in the hole" without being specifically play-makers, attackers or midfielders, and you get a huge area on the pitch between Rice and whoever is the more advanced midfielder that requires a rare and very demanding skill-set from the intermediate midfielder. Henderson, the way Klopp has moulded him, can/could at least keep things tight in the midfield.

The Argentines have a similar issue. They produce a particular type of attacking players in abundance - small and good on the dribble - who are neither forwards nor wingers (Messi is a different story, i'm talking about the likes of Lautaro etc). They offer goals, but they usually don't like defending and they're not creative enough. As a result of necessity, only Di Maria can offer something on the wings for almost a decade now, they choose FBs (and CMs) mostly for their defensive contributions and the overall product looks ugly even when it comes close to succeeding.
 
Spot on. The growth of the team in each major tournament since the current boss took over is striking.
The pool of talent that has arisen in the last 6 years is to thank for that. He’s presided over the England team at a time when a generation of genuinely excellent players have emerged. At a time when his stars have been coached by Guardiola, Klopp, Conte, Tuchel, Ancelloti, Arteta, ten Hag and Mourinho and his squad players have been coached by the likes of Howe, Bielsa and Potter amongst other top managers who have presided over mid to lower table clubs in that time.

On top of that he’s been absolutely blessed with luck of the draw and has pretty much failed when faced with an actual challenge.
 
I thought any of the creative #10s like Grealish, Foden or even Maddison behind Kane and another wide player on the left would have troubled France a lot more.
Maybe, but you would have lost something as well by playing them, Henderson covers a lot of ground, has experience, seems to organise. None of them are proper mids, even Maddison seems to play off the right at club level these days so this idea they're great central options is more of a fan idea at the moment. Maybe it's something a new manager would look at to take this team forward but I think it was an understandable lineup.

At the end of the day we had reasonable control of the midfield and created enough to get a result, so I don't see a big issue with the way the midfield balance operated. It seemed to balance attack and defence okay in the game.
 
The pool of talent that has arisen in the last 6 years is to thank for that. He’s presided over the England team at a time when a generation of genuinely excellent players have emerged. At a time when his stars have been coached by Guardiola, Klopp, Conte, Tuchel, Ancelloti, Arteta, ten Hag and Mourinho and his squad players have been coached by the likes of Howe, Bielsa and Potter amongst other top managers who have presided over mid to lower table clubs in that time.

On top of that he’s been absolutely blessed with luck of the draw and has pretty much failed when faced with an actual challenge.

That’s fair enough, yet none of these players bar Kane (and the very young Saka) is the main or driving force in their club? On the other side, an equally “s*iite” manager like Deschamps could rely yesterday upon a number of main drivers in Griezmann, Mbappe, Giroud, Theo and even Rabiot, all players used to move and settle games first hand.
 
The performance here just shows how negative we were in the past tournaments where we had a better chance to win with easy draws. Instead Southgate set us up negatively and we paid the price. Here it was poor in game management which cost us.

But the English media will gloss over the details of his record and ignore the fact we had piss easy draws in the previous tournaments and blew our best chance to win a trophy.
 
That’s fair enough, yet none of these players bar Kane (and the very young Saka) is the main or driving force in their club? On the other side, an equally “s*iite” manager like Deschamps could rely yesterday upon a number of main drivers in Griezmann, Mbappe, Giroud, Theo and even Rabiot, all players used to move and settle games first hand.

I would hardly call Griezmann or Giroud driving forces at their club. Aside from Mbappe no one on that list is.
 
That’s fair enough, yet none of these players bar Kane (and the very young Saka) is the main or driving force in their club? On the other side, an equally “s*iite” manager like Deschamps could rely yesterday upon a number of main drivers in Griezmann, Mbappe, Giroud, Theo and even Rabiot, all players used to move and settle games first hand.
Can you explain why he left Rashford out in the cold then?

Edit - Why didn’t Maddison get a look in either?
 
That’s fair enough, yet none of these players bar Kane (and the very young Saka) is the main or driving force in their club? On the other side, an equally “s*iite” manager like Deschamps could rely yesterday upon a number of main drivers in Griezmann, Mbappe, Giroud, Theo and even Rabiot, all players used to move and settle games first hand.

Foden, Grealish, Rashford, Madison, Shaw, Rice, Walker, Bellingham.. all key to their clubs and play at a high level. Hell even someone like Callum Wilson has been scoring for fun this season. Most talented England squad in a long long time.
 
He’s a rubbish manager luckily because I think that team was good enough to win it all
 
That’s fair enough, yet none of these players bar Kane (and the very young Saka) is the main or driving force in their club? On the other side, an equally “s*iite” manager like Deschamps could rely yesterday upon a number of main drivers in Griezmann, Mbappe, Giroud, Theo and even Rabiot, all players used to move and settle games first hand.

Deschamps has far, far more pedigree than Southgate. He's won a Ligue 1 and reached a CL final.

Southgate was way, way out of his depth at Middlesbrough.

Deschamps also was Frances world cup winning captain. Gareth Southgate was an absolute nobody until he somehow lurked into the England job
 
I haven’t watched any England matches between the tournaments but from what I have seen this time I wouldn’t know how to criticise Southgate. IMO his match plan yesterday worked out flawlessly. I never thought England could control France so well and at the same create a lot of chances.

The only huge blunder, which is inexcusable I think, is the failed marking of Griezmann after the corner: No defender moved over to him in time, although there was plenty of time, and that set him free to deliver a wonderful ball to Giroud. Such a brilliant ball into the six-yard box, where Giroud is waiting, is a 50-50 bet no one should take. Everyone knows leaving Griezmann so free is a punishable offense, and it got punished. But that's hardly Southgate's failure, that's on the defenders in that area.
 
The pool of talent that has arisen in the last 6 years is to thank for that. He’s presided over the England team at a time when a generation of genuinely excellent players have emerged. At a time when his stars have been coached by Guardiola, Klopp, Conte, Tuchel, Ancelloti, Arteta, ten Hag and Mourinho and his squad players have been coached by the likes of Howe, Bielsa and Potter amongst other top managers who have presided over mid to lower table clubs in that time.

On top of that he’s been absolutely blessed with luck of the draw and has pretty much failed when faced with an actual challenge.

this in a nutshell.
He has in no way exceeded expectations, beat lesser teams and lost when it comes to the crunch.

shame really for England as they genuinely have world class players to choose from.
 
Foden, Grealish, Rashford, Madison, Shaw, Rice, Walker, Bellingham.. all key to their clubs and play at a high level. Hell even someone like Callum Wilson has been scoring for fun this season. Most talented England squad in a long long time.

Nah, none of these players is used to lead winning teams, really? All are second fiddle, role players or in non-winning teams. England played better than France yesterday overall but France’s stars got the deciding moments and moves right because (imho) they have more players used to? Mind, it’s always fine margins in the total 90 minutes we are talking about, not out of this world moves a la Messi or catastrophic mistakes a la Diogo Costa, Kane missed penalty or even the idiotish foul leading to the second England penalty yesterday.
 
All I see is a reactionary manager, his in game management at crunch times is left wanting every time.
 
Deschamps has far, far more pedigree than Southgate. He's won a Ligue 1 and reached a CL final.

Southgate was way, way out of his depth at Middlesbrough.

Deschamps also was Frances world cup winning captain. Gareth Southgate was an absolute nobody until he somehow lurked into the England job

Yes, I was talking about the widespread perception over here he is a conservative manager holding back his team as well.
 
There aren't any elite English managers, Southgate is a good man manager, the best we'll do, for now.
 
I expect Southgate to continue for 2024 Euros as England manager, people are probably right about his flaws but I do feel he'll get one more chance at a major tournament.
 
The pool of talent that has arisen in the last 6 years is to thank for that. He’s presided over the England team at a time when a generation of genuinely excellent players have emerged. At a time when his stars have been coached by Guardiola, Klopp, Conte, Tuchel, Ancelloti, Arteta, ten Hag and Mourinho and his squad players have been coached by the likes of Howe, Bielsa and Potter amongst other top managers who have presided over mid to lower table clubs in that time.

On top of that he’s been absolutely blessed with luck of the draw and has pretty much failed when faced with an actual challenge.
True. Previous generations had to be coached at club levels by bums like Sir Alex Ferguson, Arsene Wenger, Rafa Benitez and Jose Mourinho.
 
Nah, none of these players is used to lead winning teams, really? All are second fiddle, role players or in non-winning teams. England played better than France yesterday overall but France’s stars got the deciding moments and moves right because (imho) they have more players used to? Mind, it’s always fine margins in the total 90 minutes we are talking about, not out of this world moves a la Messi or catastrophic mistakes a la Diogo Costa, Kane missed penalty or even the idiotish foul leading to the second England penalty yesterday.

I mean you listed Giroud, Rabiot, Griezmann, hardly players that have been great at club level recently.

England lost primarily because we were too conservative when we were on top. We had the ball, switch to 4-2-3-1 like France and bring on an AM for Henderson. Grealish or Madison excel between the lines.

Bring Rashford on for Foden who was struggling to make runs in behind that Kane was looking in for.

That would've given us a phenomenal chance of scoring. Instead our best opportunity was a Maguire header onto the post, and Southgate decided to kill the game when he took off our best attacker in Saka for his favourite Sterling who has been finished for quite some time now. Not catastrophic as you list, but in big games it's these small things that decide games. Everytime Southgate comes up against bigger teams, he is found wanting.
 
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His natural inclination to fall back on the safe and predictable is annoying. Gotta try out something fresh, keep the opponent guessing, keep things unpredictable.

Didn't select Toney for EURO 2021 who could have been handy for pens. Subbed on Sterling yesterday who, shock horror, offered nothing.
 
His natural inclination to fall back on the safe and predictable is annoying. Gotta try out something fresh, keep the opponent guessing, keep things unpredictable.

Didn't select Toney for EURO 2021 who could have been handy for pens. Subbed on Sterling yesterday who, shock horror, offered nothing.
Toney would probably have had 20quid on France in 90 minutes though
 
The most important thing for England is who will be his replacement. Someone better than him and you are ready for the big things, someone worst and you are back to point zero.

Who is that better person
 
True. Previous generations had to be coached at club levels by bums like Sir Alex Ferguson, Arsene Wenger, Rafa Benitez and Jose Mourinho.
And were rightly criticised for their failings. What is your point?
 
He's done a good job. National team football is hardly the field for revolutionary and intricate tactics. And when you have to play four "win or lose everything" matches to win a major tournament, i can only laugh at the notion that he - or anyone else, for that matter - should play like 1970 Brazil.

But he wasn't brave enough against Croatia and Italy: That's the style they play, they almost always give you the impression that they're there for the taking. It's an illusion. They're begging you to give them space to exploit. See what happened the one time Brazil were caught with their defensive line high, while 1-0 up, against Croatia the other day?

But he hasn't beaten the "big boys": There's truth to that. But it shouldn't be used as an argument to undermine England's wins in the knockouts. Denmark was a bloody good team with players on a mission. Colombia absolutely destroyed Argentina in the CA and they were unlucky the game went to penalties. Knockouts are weird games where the favourites have so much to lose and so much pressure to deal with.

But he constantly picks the same players and he has his favourites: That's the best thing he's done. These are the types of tournaments - with the players getting locked up in a hotel/training ground for a month and playing " a final" every 3-4 days - where togetherness, familiarity and a good dressing room is of the utmost importance. Argentina, Croatia and Morroco are prime examples of how good atmosphere and comaraderie can turn into belief. The one thing Deschamps fixed from the Euros last year was the French dressing room that looked like a version of Big Brother.

But he doesn't use his 5 changes to affect the course of the game: Did Deschamps? He made only one change and that when he was winning. Why change things when the main plan is paying dividends? How did it work out for Santos a few hours back? How did it work for Tite, who fecked up his entire frontline? Probably made things more complicated for both teams. Being able to change half of your outfield players is still a very fresh and absolutely MASSIVE change in the game of football. Even when it was introduced in the PL, the two great team-builders of our era rarely used it (and the Caf was laughing). It proposes an unfamiliar level of tactical intervention that is still under assessment, not from Gareth freaking Southgate, but from the best managers and their staffs.

He's done mistakes, he's made bad decisions and he had occasionally wet the bed, too. But the foundations, the basic principals and requirements around which a solid NT is built are there. There's the issue of fatigue, after so many years. It happens to everyone. There are only so many times you can convince your players and yourself to give it one more try. Maybe he'll stay and things will go south. Maybe another manager will finally win a tournament with a few crucial tweaks of his own here and there. But you are not in point zero to demand his head with such ease. Make the bad choice and you can easily go backwards.

As a neutral, i thought England were very good yesterday. It was a quality game, probably the best the European continent has to offer nowadays. And for the last couple of years, this is England's level. No trophy, i know, but no need for anger and self-flagellation. It's very tough to go all the way in these tournaments and it needs a certain amount of luck that you so desperately need. But you can't control that. All you can do is be in the whereabouts. And England have done that under Southgate.

Some people will scoff, but i think it was the best you've looked in WC knockouts since 1990. Granted, your good performances have been rather few since then, but it was a proper European derby last night.

I agree with some of this (except that nonsense about some "Brazil notion!" has anyone actually said that?).

However let's not pretend Italy played some kind of mastermind game. They were losing and England were clearly the better side until Italy changed tactically around the 30-ish minute mark and then for the entire rest of the game Southgate didn't react. Yesterday, whilst 1-1 he was planning on fresh legs subs (Mount and Sterling) to keep the game going as was (classic Southgate like for like) which would have been fine as England were doing well enough, but then France score and what does he do? He doesn't rethink, he keeps on with the plan and bar a stupid push in the box, England then went on to actually create and do very little...which has been the way we've played for the past 12months or so with the likes of Mount/Sterling starting.

It's not the style of football and certainly not the team building, it's the fact the in game management is completely baffling. Let's not pretend the best coaches won't change tactics/formations when needed and yeah they don't always get it right, but they try. Southgate sits on his hands, does his like for like occasional subs and won't learn. And even if your idea was correct and coaches shouldn't make massive changes, how can you justify Sterling coming on at that point over Rashford? Both are favourites of his, both do more or less the same job, yet one is in form and has scored goals and been with the team the entire time. The other?

And that's the problem with him, he clearly doesn't have a plan B when the chips are down. He bottles making the big decisions that other coaches, like Deschamps for example, don't on a regular basis.

But yes, all in all that was an interesting game and you do need a lot of luck too which England didn't get. It happens. I don't necessarily mind him staying as the figurehead, I just think we need a better set up behind him and some tactical nous calling the shots during the games. And he will stay, partly because he has to as he won't be getting any big job offers from club football that's for sure.
 
This is a very fair summary. I don’t think anyone else who is readily available would do a much better job. Heck look at the 2 best coaches in this tournament, Flick and Enrique. Tournament football requires a very specific balance of team chemistry, defensive solidity and ruthlessness in front of goal.

England need to find ways to win the crucial moments in these knockout games. 1-0 up vs Croatia, 1-0 up vs Italy, 1-1 last night with the game at their mercy and they’ve lost all 3 games.

I also think if Southgate does stay on, he needs to move beyond some of his favourites. It’s pretty clear there’s a glass ceiling for England if they stick with the likes of Maguire/Stones, who are largely responsible for England losing those decisive moments.

I agree that some things have to change. Rejuvenating any squad of players in order to keep them focused and motivated is one of the primary objectives for any manager. It's also true that Maguire was put there to deal with crosses coming into the box, and Giroud got the better of him when it mattered. Still, England played a good game yesterday. It would be perfectly fine to demand his head on a plate, if the Croatians hadn't survived on numerous occasions (by the passing virtues of their midfielders and their team's character) only to win at the very end. But they have. It would be fine to lay all the blame on him for not killing the Italians off when they were on the ropes. But the Italians are so damn hard to die when their defence is working properly. It is what it is.

I get the anger and the frustration, and i'm not suggesting that there was absolutely nothing that could be done differently from a tactical perspective. But you know something? When you're not wearing that golden winner's medal around your neck, there always is something that could/should have been done differently. I believe what hurts the most is that what you need the most is a tiny bit of luck in those moments that can make or break your tournament efforts. It's difficult for all of us to admit it because luck is out of our hands and we hate it when things seem to be out of our control. And no, it's not the same as Solskjaer (or Mourinho, LvG, Moyes etc.) who had the resources to fix things and were in competitions where tactical acumen, in the long run, almost always beats all other seemingly uncontrollable factors when it comes to the things that can define your season.

The WC is a 7-game tournament in which 4 games are basically finals. Every moment counts. Messi, the other day, produced a piece of absolute genius for Argentina's first goal. With that assist, he surpassed Maradona as the player who has created the most chances in the history of WCs. There were a number of things that could have gone wrong, from the execution of the pass to the finish, but they didn't. Kane had the opportunity to become England's top goalscorer of all time with the second penalty. Another great story for a player who fully deserves it. Didn't happen. Saka, a boy still, after missing a penalty in the previous final, gets on the pitch and has such a good game. His efforts ended up on the long list of good performances when England were eliminated. Does this make Scaloni a better manager when we're dealing in such fine margins? In 1998, after a decade in the wilderness, the French had the team to win the WC, but they went through a golden goal and a penalty shoot-out to get to the SF. You want to put this on character, resilience and mentality? Fine. In the 46th minute against Croatia, they were dead and buried. It took two goals from Thuram to win the half of a football game that won them the tournament. Do you know how many goals has Thuram scored for France? That's right, two. You want to know how many goals he has scored in his entire career? Ten, 1/5 of which came when his country was so desperately searching for a hero. This is the World Cup, and this is why it's so special when you go all the way. The best you can do is be in the mix. And England are doing just that for quite a while.
 
Giroud at times last season was dragging Milan over the line seemingly on his own in Serie A, to be fair to him.

When did this occur? Players like Leao, Tonali, Tomori, Maignon, Kessie, even Theo were more important than him.
 
So if Southgate goes, who realistically comes in to continue and expand on the progress of the past few years?
 
Woke up still angry :(

Those subs will haunt me for a long long time. Which never happens to me, I basically haven't thought about England at all since 2006 since we've always had crap teams. But this game was there to be won, and we had the players on the bench to do it. Urgh.

Hardly slept at all
 
I think his record in qualifying and getting past the group stages and last 16 fairly comfortably is undervalued, especially when you look at recent history before him. Taking that next step seems beyond him though, if he stays then perhaps it would be a good idea to have a change of assistant to someone who is a little more attack-minded and maybe takes the lead with the in-game management.
 
It’s a very good squad, particularly in the forward positions but you’ve still only got Walker, Bellingham and Kane that would get in that French side at this moment in time I reckon.

People do need to get some perspective when they talk about how amazing the squad us. Our defence and midfield struggle to even play a forward pass.

So with that being said, last night was definitely not anything to be ashamed of.

I am ashamed we can't beat the big teams and still letting outside factors cause us problems
 
I think England will win one of the next few tournaments with or without Southgate, they’re producing too many players not to win something surely. Probably more a euros than a World Cup though. He might as well stay, he’ll never have it as good at club level

Can't hear the better luck next time stuff today
 
So if Southgate goes, who realistically comes in to continue and expand on the progress of the past few years?

Eddie Howe would be a great choice. Doubt he'd leave Newcastle though, not now, maybe when they sack him in a year or two.

Other than him, you are looking outside of England and that pool ain't great either. Not sure if Tuchel or Poch would be interested.