Fortunately for him there arent a lot of tactical masterminds in current World Cup.
Is Gareth Southgate a shiite England manager?
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This is why football analysis should never be written when sober. Every sentence is a gem. Let’s start: ‘He literally played right into Italy’s hands.’ So Southgate kicked the ball and, say, Bonucci grabbed it, causing a red card for Southgate and a pen for England maybe?
‘Slow long balls’. That’s an interesting tactic. He ordered his players to make every punt lofty with maximum spin on it? And that was the ‘ONLY tactic’? Strangely Italy only scored once, they should be able to walk through consistently if there wasn’t even defensive positioning or a basic defensive formation laid down?
So ‘direct football’ is ‘literally … the opposite’ of ‘long balls up to Kane’? Oh, but of course, the long balls were so incredibly slow. What is the literal opposite of pace, btw? It must be complete entropy? I’m sure I saw Southgate twitch at one point there?
Italy are not in the WC ffs. Everybody following football knows this. They went out in the qualifiers, like so many recent champions did before them. And Southgate is not Italy’s coach. Even my mother knows as much.
Of course you/England are so head and shoulders the best national team in football, it takes sabotage from the manager to stop you/them. That’s why you/they win every tournament (until Southgate).
‘He’s a fanny.’ Finally a piece of analysis that at least makes a kind of sense. Bit crude, and not exactly well elaborated, but at least it’s a proposition.
‘A massive granny’. Literally? Or in a more poetic sense? Post of the year candidate.
Even if there were would any of them ever have the time to get these squads playing like they want them to? Most international squads end up playing almost exactly like the sum of their parts.
Southgate frustrates occasionally with his starting XI and his substitutions, but he doesn't get nearly enough credit for other things. Under him our squads seem to be well prepared mentally, not crippled by the weight of expectation or other dramas that have clearly affected us in past tournaments.
You forgot how that fecking coward threw two literal teenagers and a young striker to the fire in a finals penalty shootout. Subbing them in without so much as a chance to kick the ball. Cold turkey.
Its fecking textbook mismanagement. He is so out of his depth when we play ANY relatively decent side.
I think a lot will depend on the next two games. Has he learned his lesson from the euros or not? I’ll give him a pass for the previous World Cup.
We need to be aggressive and press and look to play forward.
Presuming we do get through against Senegal, if he shuts up shop against France and plays for penalties like I expect him to and reverts back to sterling and mount then he’ll have learned nothing at all.
We need to be aggressive and press and look to play forward.
Presuming we do get through against Senegal, if he shuts up shop against France and plays for penalties like I expect him to and reverts back to sterling and mount then he’ll have learned nothing at all.
One of the main reasons England teams struggle is the media and fans combining to make a toxic circus. Southgate has managed to keep all the hype and criticism at bay and just plod on, which is exactly what is required. International football is awful, entertaining as hell, but none of the top minds are managing International sides. Only Enrique and Flick are proper managers. England have the talent to win games on a whim, so the structure Southgate has in place is a great foundation. It's tournament football, just don't lose and practice your penalties, within that the attacking talent are always likely to score. Brazil '94 and every Italian team ever used this formula.
Sunni innit
Agree completely
Think he's got the team unified personality wise, and you can see that's not always a given at international level (see Belgium currently, previously the Netherlands or the French) but beyond that he doesn't seem to have any particularly brilliant tactical nous, maybe that's why when his gameplan isn't working he's not (so far) able to tinker in a particularly clever way, just try another straightforward gameplan; overall, he comes across as a baseline type of manager, but at least the team is working for each-other and there is a plan (even if it is a simple one)...
Exactly. Its funny how people refuse to appreciate southgate understands tournament football.
Does he though…? Or has he just got a bunch of very good players and had really easy draws as well?
I guess we’ll see when he returns to club management and is in tournaments / cups.
Well he hasn’t won anything of note and his club management was pretty bad. League record:
Matches 114
Wins 29
Draws 33
Losses 52
Goals For 115
Goals Against 159
About 1 goal a game whilst having a fairly decent frontline with Viduka and Yakubu and losing almost half his games.
As I have said, he didn’t do anything to deserve the job.
Sometimes an individual is just the right person for a particular job at a particular time.
Southgate is unlikely to forge a notable career at club football. He doesnt seem to possess the necessary skill set to succeed there, judging by what we've seen previously.
For England though he seems to have the knack of preparing this group and removing the fear factor that has been such a burden to us. Fans take for granted everything that he is doing off the field and become hyper critical of everything on it.
He may well end up only being fully appreciated after he is gone, or alternatively his legacy may end up being the guy who laid the foundations necessary for someone else to come in and truly nail it. Time will tell. It's quite clear he will never get the credit he deserves from the armchair managers though.
He's the best manager since we won the world cup. People might not like it, but semi final of world cup and nations league and final of euros is the best any manager has done since England last won it.
People keep mentioning easy draws but I've seen England lose to Iceland, not qualify for a world cup and a euros, go out in a group stage and struggle to get through a group with USA, Algeria and Slovenia with supposedly better managers. And at the time what people were calling world class players.
Maybe it's time for him to go after this tournament but he's made England players likeable. And England are beating teams they should be beating
People keep mentioning easy draws but I've seen England lose to Iceland, not qualify for a world cup and a euros, go out in a group stage and struggle to get through a group with USA, Algeria and Slovenia with supposedly better managers. And at the time what people were calling world class players.
Maybe it's time for him to go after this tournament but he's made England players likeable. And England are beating teams they should be beating
The issue I have with that though, is that if he leaves (as he should after this WC) and the next manager comes in and does better, you’re saying Southgate ‘laid the foundations’, but it isn’t club football - Southgate hasn’t bought these players, or even coached them particularly well it seems.
What if the next manager plays good football? Surely that’ll show that Southgate’s foundations have been replaced and that he was an inferior manager.
Hypothetically, if Guardiola took over and won a trophy, it’d have nothing to with anything Southgate did - he would deserve no credit.
And regarding the ‘removing pressure’ angle, I’m not so sure. I mean, isn’t that something that was true of previous groups of players that we’re just superimposing onto the present day?
These players are used to winning PREMS, CLs and being coached by mad bastards like Guardiola, Conte, Klopp and Ten Hag - I think they can handle themselves.
I really do believe that keeping Southgate on has prevented us from winning anything with this generation, I really do.
That's fair. I'm not a particular fan of Southgate, but I'm also not a hater as so many seem to be. A manager should be judged by his record, and his states that he is the 2nd best manager we've ever had.
Personally I think the best football I've seen England play in my lifetime was under Hoddle, but it didn't lead to anything, and I can't recall many previous managers under whom the whole thing didn't feel like a bit of a circus. Some of them even seemed to encourage that.
It's all felt a lot calmer since Southgate came in. None of the controversy. The obvious infighting. The silly red cards. The courting of the media. I dont think that is a coincidence, and i do believe that this has all contributed positively to our performance levels. We look far more like a group of players that have a platform to win a tournament that I can ever remember.
When I mention foundations for the future, it's not to defend Southgate but more to say that I hope his replacement is smart enough to follow that blueprint, and if they can do that AND find that extra 10% on the pitch then we might actually become a dominant International team.
Fair enough, yeah I can see that.
For what it’s worth, I really liked what he did up until that Euros final. That for me was the moment that it was clear he needed to move on.
I think he’s very similar to Ole as a character, I think International footy would really suit Ole as a coach.
The go to laughable excuse his detractors always reach for. Like how you've blisfully convinced yourselves you possessed a far superior team than Italy at the euros and some how losing on penalties to a nation with a far superior international tournament pedigree is some how a crime....
Not when many of you don't understand the difference between club ball and international ball.
I always refrain from commenting on the Euro final because I got completely smashed (like, top 5 lifetime smashed) and I don't remember anything after Shaws goal.
As with Southgate and the team, the occasion was a little bit too much for me, but I'll learn from the experience.
Theres an astounding lack of perspective here. People speak as if we’ve a history of winning international tournaments and turning up when it counts. The truth is we haven’t. Our record under Southgate is as good as any England manager in recent times. The football might not be sexy but point me to a manager who is consistently producing that on the international stage. Tournament football is about grinding out results and we’ve generally done that quite well.
Using the Euro final loss against Italy as a stick to beat Southgate with is laughable and stinks of entitlement. This squad is not half as good as people seem to think.
Using the Euro final loss against Italy as a stick to beat Southgate with is laughable and stinks of entitlement. This squad is not half as good as people seem to think.
You obviously have a different view of him than me, but it’s not due to me not ‘understanding the difference between International and club footy’. Likewise his tactics in the final were SHOCKING - both in game and his management of the pens.
He’s at best a very average manager. His brand of footy is dull, restrained and conservative.
If he’d been let go after the Euros, we could easily have Howe now.
He's probably a very average tactician at best, but he might just be a very good international manager.
We don't really have all of the facts to judge, unless we're looking at actual results, and then it's beyond any real dispute
He’s a very, very good international manager. His track record is very definitive on this subject.
People have absolutely no perspective on this topic and it’s absolutely fascinating.
It’s like the last couple of tournaments are the only ones some people have ever seen, and only watched the England games at that.
People are using the Euro final as a stick against Southgate due it being very similar to the Croatia game, basically proved he hadn't learnt from that game.
If I didn't see the game, I'd of been like eh fair play getting to a final and Italy were excellent throughout the tournament yadayada.
His ingame management was awful, overly defensive with no outlet from half time onwards. How Kane & Sterling both played the full 120 despite being completely invisible for the majority of the 2nd half.
Mount off at 99.. again same issue.
Chielli at 36? and Bonnuci at 33 in defence, Yes incredible defenders but I'm not sure I fancy facing Rashford 95mins into that game especially when both had a yellow card.
There's also Sancho & Grealish, the latter used at 99.. The first& only change for the front 3 was at 99minutes..Italy changed their entire front 3 by 91.
Very very similar to Ole refusing to his bench until the 100th min in the Europa league, though he didn't have Rashford,Sancho & Grealish on the fecking bench.
Semi final and final and on track for another semi at least after all the dissapointing tournaments of the 10 years before turn it every way you want he has done a good job.
This is rubbish, speak for yourself! I mean the squads between 2010 and 2018 were dreadful with minor improvement in 2018 when I thought Southgate actually did a fabulous job with such a limited group. Even the golden generation had a good starting xi but no balance, no ability to control matches and wafer thin squad depth.
this England squad is the first one that is really different, mainly thanks to foreign money flowing into the academies. The strength in depth is massive and these are players capable of controlling matches. They shouldn’t be so whimpery pathetic against half decent opposition and I lay the blame at Southgate’s door as when confronted with better opposition he does what pretty much every limited manager does. Parks the bud, packs midfield with willing destroyer runners and tries to use weapon of pace on the counter. Then when the whole world csn see that the team is losing the battle, getting gassed out from chasing the ball, he doesn’t even make changes then. Maybe the one time he did it was against Germany, no coincidence our first decent knockout tournament result in forever. We will see, I.hope he makes me eat my words but I don’t hold out any hope as we have seen the same from him so many times now.
100%
We lost a final of a major tournament. I’d say it happens, but we don’t usually make it there to begin with. Mistakes were made sure, but it’s hardly grounds to call him a shite England manager considering his record. People really need to get over it. It’s pathetic that some can’t enjoy the fact we’re comfortably through to the knockout stages of the WC, they have to carry on bitching about something that happened a couple years ago and compare us to this imaginary standard of international football.
Sad thing for me is that if we lose our quarter final match against France you just know everyone is going to jump right back on the "Southgate is useless" bandwagon. This will be true even if it's a tight match.
But to be fair you give ammunition if you lose the first match that's a real scrap on paper. I think he needs to come through at least one of those in this tournament for it to be deemed a creditable result. Cruising through a mediocre group and last 16 tie isn't a barometer with this squad. That's the minimum expectation as Southgate has every card to play against the managers he's coming up against. Now he is asked to prove his nous.
It will be very disappointing if he reverts back to 5-3-2 against France. He has stumbled upon a midfield with rarely seen balance in Rice, Bellingham and Henderson. And he has a wealth of attacking players. Just go for it.
cons:
1) sitting back and inviting italy back in
2) bringing on three young lads to take penalties and not giving them a kick beforehand.
3) largely playing conservatively and waiting too long to make changes.
pros:
1) team spirit.
2) ability to forge a team mentality.
3) waistcoat.
i think with a different manager, england beat italy last year but if he’s learnt from that and we go deep again, then fairplay, i’ll hold my hands up and say i was wrong about the negative piece of shit.
1) sitting back and inviting italy back in
2) bringing on three young lads to take penalties and not giving them a kick beforehand.
3) largely playing conservatively and waiting too long to make changes.
pros:
1) team spirit.
2) ability to forge a team mentality.
3) waistcoat.
i think with a different manager, england beat italy last year but if he’s learnt from that and we go deep again, then fairplay, i’ll hold my hands up and say i was wrong about the negative piece of shit.
Premier League football is a completely different landscape to what it was during the 2002 - 2006 'golden generation'. Inter club rivalries and a shoddy FA meant that that squad of players never stood a chance, regardless of who was manager. The current lot are close despite playing for rival clubs. That's not because Southgate has somehow reshaped PL football and domestic rivalries, it's just a different environment to what it was and he is benefitting from that.
Taking context into account, it's fine that people expect England to compete and play good football. The squad is on par with France and Brazil and our league is at its strongest and most harmonious.
Taking context into account, it's fine that people expect England to compete and play good football. The squad is on par with France and Brazil and our league is at its strongest and most harmonious.
Clearly a good manager. Miles better than having one that can't even speak English. The same goes for any country, I think every manager should be from their native land when it comes to International football.
agree. it’s like when a plummer comes to are cuntry and doesn’t even try to speak the language of are pipes.
Brexit means Brexit.
You can recognise the qualities he brings as manager like great squad unity and spirit and pragmatism while still recognising that in certain games - namely the biggest ones - his in game management has been pretty terrible, this is alongside his reliance on favourites.
I also think if pretty much entire country hadn’t gone ‘why aren’t you playing foden you dufus?’ He would stick with mount. Also if Sterling hadn’t had to leave for personal reasons he would have likely been in there too. I thought the team was just right today though surprised to see Rashford not included, Henderson was outstanding. If we go out with a whimper to France, not losing but not having had a go it’s fair enough he takes flak. He has a wealth of talent on that bench and he left them all sat there an entire match in the final of a very winnable game.