So credit him then for changing it.
Is Gareth Southgate a shiite England manager?
- Thread starter VP89
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Did he? Rashford scored a free-kick and then Wales collapsed. England beat Wales because they have far better players, not because of an exemplary tactical display.
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I don't agree. We'd get knocked out sooner because our players don't spend enough time together to practise the detail of what makes that approach work at club level. Deschamps got exactly the same criticism for caution (and he's an ex DM so that MUST be why), eg over how he used Pogba. And it worked out well for him. Because tournament football is different.
But then it happens again the next game...so there's clearly something not right with his coaching. It seems to always take to half time for anything to happen. And the first half of every game (iran aside) we have been absolutely dire in comparison with the talent on the pitch.
Yeah he switched foden and rashford for starters and players immediately stopped trying to occupy the same spaces.
It still happened and it's worrying that it takes him to an in game situation to notice that.
I personally don’t see how he can be when we have made an WC semi, and played the final at the Euros under him. Frankly feck the Nations league and friendly because they are meaningless.
His teams are sometimes dull to watch, and he definitely has his favourites - but he also seems to have found a method of going deep in major tournaments that England haven’t been able to do for decades. He’s a pretty solid and successful manager - but I guess the comparison is key. Are you comparing him to other England managers or all managers in general?
His teams are sometimes dull to watch, and he definitely has his favourites - but he also seems to have found a method of going deep in major tournaments that England haven’t been able to do for decades. He’s a pretty solid and successful manager - but I guess the comparison is key. Are you comparing him to other England managers or all managers in general?
Successful manager? Depends what you constitute as success. But in the wise words of Jose Mourinho, 2nd place is just the 1st place loser. As a manager all he has achieved is a 2016 Toulon tournament. He did nothing to get the job, he was just in the right place at the right time. Now that he has the job he hasn’t done anything that sets him out as a good manager and all his tactics are borrowed from club sides. He is a literally the blandest manager out there and his lack of personality shows in how his team plays.
9 goals in the group stage isnt enough for you?
In terms of England managers he's definetly been a solid manager don't think you can really deny that. Getting to a semis especially when that England team weren't fancied at all.
The Euros was basically a home tournament though, still impressive to get to the final.
But both games were practically identical, England start well and lead. Then go overly cautious and negative EXTREMELY early. Allowing both Croatia and Italy to control & dictate the game. Basically parked the bus in both games from half time..
Reluctant to make good use of the bench when the team isn't doing well, his use of the bench against Italy was akin to Ole in his final at Utd. Arguably worse due to the fact he had Rashford/Sancho/Grealish on the bench.
Of course not, because it is the same old England fans disease. They overrate the team and players, then blame the manager for not delivering on their inflated expectation. Then they boo the team and players start hating playing for their country. You saw the seeds after the USA result.
When we finally get a manager who has an accurate measure of the team, and sets them up accordingly, he gets blamed for them not being something they shouldnt be.
Can Southgate be criticised? Of course. Is he a shite national team manager? His record says not, especially baselined against what he inherited.
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In 7 group stages from 1986 to 2014 England managed a total of 21 goals in 21 matches. The most goals scored in any group stage was 5.
In 2 group stages under Southgate England have scored 17 goals in 6 matches, 8 goals and 9 goals respectively.
He’s not a particularly attacking manager but he’s made a phenomenal improvement to the absolute crap that England produced tournament after tournament in the 20/30 years before his arrival.
Maybe. I remember the italy game and thinking a more experienced Italy side simply put us under pressure at home, where we have often struggled recently, and we didn't have the mental experience to cope.
There's that stat that tournament winning teams are about 27.5 yrs old on average. Well, Italy was bang on the average, and had a finals heritage we don't. We were 2 years younger, and they simply made that experience and savviness count.
I think we are much better placed to handle that kind of pressure now.
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I think he is very good at the job he is doing - winning as many competitive games as possible.
He is cautious, most of the time, but not unduly so - there is a reasonable balance between attack and defence. He got rid of cliques and doesn’t seem to have problem egos in the squad - the squad all play for the group more than for themselves.
I don’t always agree with his selections or tactics but it’s not like he’s doing bizarre stuff. It’s all pretty logical and is, I believe, close to getting the best out of the group considering the circumstances that all national team managers have to work within.
It’s fair enough to look at the way England play sometimes and say he could do even better but I doubt there are many who actually would do better.
He is cautious, most of the time, but not unduly so - there is a reasonable balance between attack and defence. He got rid of cliques and doesn’t seem to have problem egos in the squad - the squad all play for the group more than for themselves.
I don’t always agree with his selections or tactics but it’s not like he’s doing bizarre stuff. It’s all pretty logical and is, I believe, close to getting the best out of the group considering the circumstances that all national team managers have to work within.
It’s fair enough to look at the way England play sometimes and say he could do even better but I doubt there are many who actually would do better.
The stats speak for themselves. Imo In Southgate you finally have a manager who understands the importance of playing pragmatical in important tournaments. It's like playing pragmatical to get a result is great if a manager is called Mourinho, but if he's Southgate then he's shite. If he doesn't play Pep football he gets blamed for that too, but it takes weeks in and out of training to play a certain style really well. Sometimes you just need to find players you trust and who can do a stable job for you. Southgate might not be messias, but he seems to understand what it takes at the big tournaments.
On progression hes the 2nd best we have had.
Ramsey : WC winners
Southgate : Euro final and WC SF
Robson : WC SF
Venables : Euro SF
The rest worse
Ramsey : WC winners
Southgate : Euro final and WC SF
Robson : WC SF
Venables : Euro SF
The rest worse
Does it not make sense to taylor the tactics to the players you have in the squad? Players are picked on club form, why would you then force them to do something they are potentially uncomfortable with?
Agree with this, in particular your second paragraph.
Southgate wasn't a fashionable player, and he's never going to be a fashionable manager either. Not amongst the English anyway. He will never win them over, even if we win this thing.
Just boring arguments. I remember the same shite basically when ole was in charge of us. ‘Oh it’s very difficult to win games in the premier league with Man City and Liverpool who are very good, and he’s got peps number from those smash n grab wins’ blah blah blah blah blah ‘went on a winning streak the comeback kings!’. Look how that played out. Now we don’t have a shite manager we no longer look shite.
England have the quality to dispatch weaker opposition like wales or Ukraine. The cut of the mustard is against the top sides to not play like a more cowardly David Moyes and hang on for dear life against sides we could pose a threat to. We will see vs first decent opposition in the quarters it will be a rinse and repeat of USA/Croatia/Italy/Belgium. Predictable. Then you can gloat in your whiny bollocks that England had just found their level and those of us will argue that the level will be found with a top tier manager. See also Belgium with Martinez. What a waste. At least he’s an attacking shit manager though,
England have the quality to dispatch weaker opposition like wales or Ukraine. The cut of the mustard is against the top sides to not play like a more cowardly David Moyes and hang on for dear life against sides we could pose a threat to. We will see vs first decent opposition in the quarters it will be a rinse and repeat of USA/Croatia/Italy/Belgium. Predictable. Then you can gloat in your whiny bollocks that England had just found their level and those of us will argue that the level will be found with a top tier manager. See also Belgium with Martinez. What a waste. At least he’s an attacking shit manager though,
Yeah England definitely need some favours in that section to progress past Sunday
England have one of the strongest squads and starting 11s at the tournament.
Not a single player from the teams they played in the groups, nor Senegal in the last 16 would get in their starting 11.
Not a single player from the teams they played in the groups, nor Senegal in the last 16 would get in their starting 11.
Yeah but FA are too cowardly to appoint someone who isn't afraid to speak up for themselves
Think it could have been different story had we faced someone as inexperienced as us in that final,Italy were too canny
We will know when he drops Rashford and Foden for the knockout game.
He literally played right into Italy’s hands - firing slow long balls up to lone Kane was his ONLY tactic.
The way to beat their ageing, slow side was with pace and direct football, he literally did the exact opposite.
Where are Italy in the WC ffs?
Southgate stopped us from winning that trophy. He’s a fanny. A massive granny at that.
He sees Foden only as a RW simply because that’s where he plays for City.
He has forgotten how he played all of the other seasons except this.
He has forgotten how he played all of the other seasons except this.
It’s irrelevant. You are only as good as your last game. After 1st game he was good. 2nd game, shite. 3rd game, good again.
He's bang average. Tends to beat teams he should beat (bar Croatia) but when tested, tends to bottle it. We'll be going out in the quarters which is no shame, I guess. France are a better side.
He's not great, but the England job is a shit one too. So in that sense, I applaud him for managing some level of consistent results with a team that was generally picked by the media before he became manager. And he was pretty close to an unlikely (imo) trophy in the Euros.
I think the expectation of club level silky football is a fool's dream for England fans in general. You haven't achieved it in literal decades. The few teams who do usually manage to do that now have a core of players at one club - eg. Enrique doubling down on Barcelona's squad, every German manager and Bayern, and the only exception to that rule right now is France, who have an unparalleled depth of talent at the moment and can also switch to grind-out-a-result mode when needed. Southgate knows it's not going to happen, and that may suck for the fans, but it keeps him in the job.
Can you guys do better? Yeah, probably. But you underestimate how well Southgate has managed the circus around this job so he can actually do this job. Getting a better manager doesn't necessarily mean that aspect will get handled. So if you switch to someone else, you also need to contain the mayhem that tends to get created when that manager loses his first 2 matches.
I think the expectation of club level silky football is a fool's dream for England fans in general. You haven't achieved it in literal decades. The few teams who do usually manage to do that now have a core of players at one club - eg. Enrique doubling down on Barcelona's squad, every German manager and Bayern, and the only exception to that rule right now is France, who have an unparalleled depth of talent at the moment and can also switch to grind-out-a-result mode when needed. Southgate knows it's not going to happen, and that may suck for the fans, but it keeps him in the job.
Can you guys do better? Yeah, probably. But you underestimate how well Southgate has managed the circus around this job so he can actually do this job. Getting a better manager doesn't necessarily mean that aspect will get handled. So if you switch to someone else, you also need to contain the mayhem that tends to get created when that manager loses his first 2 matches.
I really like him. He had done a great job so far. People on here will bash him even if he wins the tournament. Some fans dont like when a manager has different ideas, formation or starting 11 then themselves. Even though the fans have never kicked a ball at senior level they claim to know whats right because they watch a lot of football and play fifa.
Its frankly quite absurd.
Its frankly quite absurd.
Which is most of the reason he doesn’t pick ‘fashionable players’ and goes with ‘unfashionable players’. He’s a self absorbed individual. If he got over himself he might actually be decent and pick a balanced side rather than one that is ‘unassuming’ and is picked based on running stats and being someone waistcoat can relate to.
Totally agree.
We won't win with Southgate.
He is also lucky that the opposition the other managers had to contend were of much higher quality.
Quite possibly, but the problem with our fans is that we don't know how to be nuanced in our expectations. We have always convinced ourselves, prior to every single tournament, that we should be winning it, and we are especially convinced that this squad is the best we've ever had and should only be playing sparkling, attacking football - which of course their choice of 'manager X playing team Y' would undoubtedly achieve.
Southgate strikes me as above average intelligent and above average sensible for a football managers. This criticism didn’t.
Are you saying you would never be as silly as to start Rasford on the left and Foden on the right?
All of that expectation you've written down is exactly what it should be. No reason to lower that.
None at all, apart from that it often leads to incorrect conclusions being drawn when we don't deliver what people want us to.
There are weaknesses within our squad that will test even the greatest manager, and those same weaknesses would lead to many other managers, better ones than Southgate, adopting a similar approach to these tournaments.