Iran v US confrontation

Javi said:
Yes, but people asked follow up question you seem to ignore which is a bit odd since we are all here to advance our views by discussion. Of course you are free to hold whatever opinion you like and I couldn't care less about that, it's the rationale I'm talking about. I'm trying to be as open-minded as possible and depending on what you say/Trump does I'd be more than happy to evolve my views.
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I just missed it as all, I've had a lot of replies. I'm perfectly justified to my own opinions and I think this forum is a bit of an echo chamber for some of you. I'm not going to have an argument with everyone in here by spouting off about why I think Trump has done well when it's clearly going to get me nowhere.

If you guys don't see why Trump is popular and does well you would also I assume be surprised Brexit happened at the time. A lot of people have different opinions to the majority on this thread.

I just can't be arsed with this anymore tonight. Maybe tomorrow I'll go in detail why Trump's policies are supportable...if the majority of people are actually willing to discuss things like an adult on here like yourself.
 
Van Gaalacticos said:
I just missed it as all, I've had a lot of replies. I'm perfectly justified to my own opinions and I think this forum is a bit of an echo chamber for some of you. I'm not going to have an argument with everyone in here by spouting off about why I think Trump has done well when it's clearly going to get me nowhere.

If you guys don't see why Trump is popular and does well you would also I assume be surprised Brexit happened at the time. A lot of people have different opinions to the majority on this thread.

I just can't be arsed with this anymore tonight. Maybe tomorrow I'll go in detail why Trump's policies are supportable...if the majority of people are actually willing to discuss things like an adult on here like yourself.
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Give me your top three
 
Van Gaalacticos said:
I just missed it as all, I've had a lot of replies. I'm perfectly justified to my own opinions and I think this forum is a bit of an echo chamber for some of you. I'm not going to have an argument with everyone in here by spouting off about why I think Trump has done well when it's clearly going to get me nowhere.

If you guys don't see why Trump is popular and does well you would also I assume be surprised Brexit happened at the time. A lot of people have different opinions to the majority on this thread.

I just can't be arsed with this anymore tonight. Maybe tomorrow I'll go in detail why Trump's policies are supportable...if the majority of people are actually willing to discuss things like an adult on here like yourself.
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Well, it sure seems like there is fertile ground for discussion then. I'm a bit bewildered by your use of 'you guys' because to me there is virtually nothing to suggest that a group of posters can be adequately sized into one entity of opinion and surely not one I could size myself in.
 
Van Gaalacticos said:
Defending the 2nd amendment in the US
Stopping immigration from the 7 countries that didn't provide background checks of potential migrants.
Getting rid of Obamacare
Slashing US corporate tax rate and taxpayer rates.

I like them all, which of his policies is your least favourite?
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Oh Gosh, we have another nutter. Welcome the the Caf!
 
Javi said:
Well, it sure seems like there is fertile ground for discussion then. I'm a bit bewildered by your use of 'you guys' because to me there is virtually nothing to suggest that a group of posters can be adequately sized into one entity of opinion and surely not one I could size myself in.
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I feel very much on my own in my opinion here to be fair.
 
Van Gaalacticos said:
I feel very much on my own in my opinion here to be fair.
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Nothing wrong with that. You can show them why you think your opinion is better reasoned than theirs. I can understand how it's hard in that crossfire though, probably best to not answer belittling posts. FWIW I'd disagree with all of your positions prima facie but it's hard to figure out what exactly it is that you think he is doing right and where you are coming from on these very broad topics.
 
Zlatattack said:
Submarine launched ballistic missiles say hello.
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Which pakistan does not have in service as of today. Even if that cruise missile which is in development by a miracle does appear say tomorrow even then its range is only 250 miles, which means a pakistani submarine will have to enter the territorial waters of usa to actually use the said cruise missile. Moreover, pakistan doesn't have nuclear powered submarines which can travel the entire distance submerged, the subs that pakistan has will have to come up and they'll be easily spotted. Plus dont you think the americans will know how to track there own subs which they sold to pakistan ?
 
Van Gaalacticos said:
I just missed it as all, I've had a lot of replies. I'm perfectly justified to my own opinions and I think this forum is a bit of an echo chamber for some of you. I'm not going to have an argument with everyone in here by spouting off about why I think Trump has done well when it's clearly going to get me nowhere.

If you guys don't see why Trump is popular and does well you would also I assume be surprised Brexit happened at the time. A lot of people have different opinions to the majority on this thread.

I just can't be arsed with this anymore tonight. Maybe tomorrow I'll go in detail why Trump's policies are supportable...if the majority of people are actually willing to discuss things like an adult on here like yourself.
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Don't give up. I'm on your side. If Trump found the cure for cancer, his pussy grabbing comment would be part of the blow back.
 
Fearless said:
Don't give up. I'm on your side. If Trump found the cure for cancer, his pussy grabbing comment would be part of the blow back.
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There is a large difference between finding cure for cancer and getting out of climate change deal, getting out of Iran deal despite that all intelligence reports (including Israel one) saying that Iran most likely is keeping its part of the deal, rambling like a lunatic teenager in Twitter and so on, I can go forever.
 
Van Gaalacticos said:
I just missed it as all, I've had a lot of replies. I'm perfectly justified to my own opinions and I think this forum is a bit of an echo chamber for some of you. I'm not going to have an argument with everyone in here by spouting off about why I think Trump has done well when it's clearly going to get me nowhere.

If you guys don't see why Trump is popular and does well you would also I assume be surprised Brexit happened at the time. A lot of people have different opinions to the majority on this thread.

I just can't be arsed with this anymore tonight. Maybe tomorrow I'll go in detail why Trump's policies are supportable...if the majority of people are actually willing to discuss things like an adult on here like yourself.
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Is this an episode of Black Mirror?
 
Revan said:
There is a large difference between finding cure for cancer and getting out of climate change deal, getting out of Iran deal despite that all intelligence reports (including Israel one) saying that Iran most likely is keeping its part of the deal, rambling like a lunatic teenager in Twitter and so on, I can go forever.
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I'm sure you could. If the Iran deal insisted that at least one of the Mullahs performed fifty keep-ups and they did, you'd still defend it on that basis.
 
Fearless said:
I'm sure you could. If the Iran deal insisted that at least one of the Mullahs performed fifty keep-ups and they did, you'd still defend on that basis.
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Bullshit. There was no independent intelligence report (be it from Israel, US or NATO) that said that Iran wasn't keeping its part of nuclear deal. But Netanyahu and the guy who asks for pictures in intelligence reports know better, and the heaven of human rights Saudi Arabia supports them.

Keep the bullshit out, you're happy about this just because you hate Iran. This has nothing to do with them continuing nuclear program.

And no, I am in no-one side here.
 
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Revan said:
Iran, obviously a typo.
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I dont hate Iran, just it's despotic regime that hangs gays, fecks with the entire region, claims it never had a nuclear programme and sponsors anti-semitic thugs like Hamas and Hezbollah.

But please do carry on defending their integrity.
 
Fearless said:
I dont hate Iran, just it's despotic regime that hangs gays, fecks with the entire region, claims it never had a nuclear programme and sponsors anti-semitic thugs like Hamas and Hezbollah.

But please do carry on defending their integrity.
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It obviously had which is why it was under heavy sanctions. And then, they made a deal with US and European important countries to stop it in favor of relaxing programs. And all intelligence reports seem to think that they really stopped their nuclear program, but US decided to get out of it for shits and giggles, which in turn will likely make Iran restart their nuclear program...in other words, things from almost normal seem to have gone as bad as they were a few years ago, because president Moron's only policy seem to be undoing everything Obama did.

As far as I know Hamas and Hezbollah were never part of that deal. Which is obviously wrong, and Iran should be forced to stop supporting terrorist groups. But that cannot happen by not keeping your part of the deal.

...

Oh, and when you're in the same side as fecking Saudi Arabia, you're in wrong. If Iran is bad, what about the country who sponsors ISIS and Al-Qaeda, who beheads people in stadiums and who bombs civils in Yemen. And whom - surprise surprise - don't recognize Israel.
 
Revan said:
It obviously had which is why it was under heavy sanctions. And then, they made a deal with US and European important countries to stop it in favor of relaxing programs. And all intelligence reports seem to think that they really stopped their nuclear program, but US decided to get out of it for shits and giggles, which in turn will likely make Iran restart their nuclear program...in other words, things from almost normal seem to have gone as bad as they were a few years ago, because president Moron's only policy seem to be undoing everything Obama did.

As far as I know Hamas and Hezbollah were never part of that deal. Which is obviously wrong, and Iran should be forced to stop supporting terrorist groups. But that cannot happen by not keeping your part of the deal.

...

Oh, and when you're in the same side as fecking Saudi Arabia, you're in wrong. If Iran is bad, what about the country who sponsors ISIS and Al-Qaeda, who beheads people in stadiums and who bombs civils in Yemen. And whom - surprise surprise - don't recognize Israel.
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The sunset clauses, the testing of ballistic missiles, the archiving of Project Amad shows what a sham this all is. Even you'd have to agree that the compromised site inspections are utterly insane.
 
Fearless said:
The sunset clauses, the testing of ballistic missiles, the archiving of Project Amad shows what a sham this all is. Even you'd have to agree that the compromised site inspections are utterly insane.
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But US is hardly a banana republic that just can decide 'you know, the previous deal wasn't that great, and we don't like the ex-president, so feck it'. Instead, a better solution would have been to negotiate a better deal, while further relaxing Iran's sanctions when they would agree for a better deal. It is the same thing with Obamacare, hardly a perfect (or near it) but much better than not having anything at all.

Trump is just destroying, not fixing. Heck, his secretary of defense who has been anti-Iran for his entire career and who has no political allegiance thinks that staying in a non-perfect deal is much better than not having a deal at all.
 
shahnuclearplants.jpg
 
Zlatattack said:
This is where the Iranians went wrong. Had they bought the bomb from us when we were selling, they'd be safe today. America doesn't bomb countries who can cause it an unacceptable amount of damage. Libya also ratted us out, look at the state of it today. N.Korea bought the bomb and developed long range missiles - for all the big talk, not a single bullet has been fired at them.
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Saudi gives mountain loads of money to Pakistan. They would never allow Pakistan to sell a bomb to Iran.

Pakistan has been the biggest nuclear proliferators though. NK being the obvious one. It is very worrying, what would happen in case of any political instability in Pakistan and the wrong people get their hands on these weapons and warheads.
 
Van Gaalacticos said:
To remove himself and the US from this deal with Iran and thereby not idly standing by as another nation increased its capability for nuclear warfare as he feels Iran are a threat. He could be proven right as he was with North Korea.
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Van Gaalacticos said:
He got them to the negotiating table for legitimate talks. Looks like he's odds on to win a Nobel peace prize for it too.
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Anyone with an ounce of understanding of North Korea and an ounce of common sense knew Kim was just playing Trump like a fiddle for the absolute moronic fool he is. These posts of yours above look awful now after the immensely obvious news of Kim backtracking from talks especially after Trumps moronic and dangerous removal of the USA from the Iran deal.

Yeah Kim will definitely go for talks for a deal with a man who pulls out of similar deals with other countries. The art of the deal indeed. Damn so many of Trump supporters are so like Trump. Gullible and clueless and completely unable to accept the man is just on a giant scam for his own benefit and to destroy anything Obama did beforehand.
 
langster said:
Anyone with an ounce of understanding of North Korea and an ounce of common sense knew Kim was just playing Trump like a fiddle for the absolute moronic fool he is. These posts of yours above look awful now after the immensely obvious news of Kim backtracking from talks especially after Trumps moronic and dangerous removal of the USA from the Iran deal.

Yeah Kim will definitely go for talks for a deal with a man who pulls out of similar deals with other countries. The art of the deal indeed. Damn so many of Trump supporters are so like Trump. Gullible and clueless and completely unable to accept the man is just on a giant scam for his own benefit and to destroy anything Obama did beforehand.
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Okay mate send your bile and insults elsewhere. Your post looks awful. You just don't like Trump for your own reasons, no need to take it out on me lol.

He has made progress with NK before and will again, time will tell.
 
Nikhil said:
Saudi gives mountain loads of money to Pakistan. They would never allow Pakistan to sell a bomb to Iran.

Pakistan has been the biggest nuclear proliferators though. NK being the obvious one. It is very worrying, what would happen in case of any political instability in Pakistan and the wrong people get their hands on these weapons and warheads.
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At this rate having that orange dude with nuclear is more scarry than kim jong un. I wish I'm just kidding. But if this goes on there's bigger probability of trump firing one than any other country.

Kim is a thug asking for money, but he's not crazy enough to actually launch a nuke. Trump on the other hand...
 
Van Gaalacticos said:
Okay mate send your bile and insults elsewhere. Your post looks awful. You just don't like Trump for your own reasons, no need to take it out on me lol.

He has made progress with NK before and will again, time will tell.
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He deserves some degree of credit for making contact but as we've seen with the North Koreans for the past 25 years, they generally seem receptive to negotiations, then abruptly move the goal posts from what was agreed during preliminary negotiations. We saw that again a couple of days ago. So yes its good that Trump is trying - but the odds of a deal are still fairly distant.
 
Raoul said:
He deserves some degree of credit for making contact but as we've seen with the North Koreans for the past 25 years, they generally seem receptive to negotiations, then abruptly move the goal posts from what was agreed during preliminary negotiations. We saw that again a couple of days ago. So yes its good that Trump is trying - but the odds of a deal are still fairly distant.
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What was agreed in the preliminary negotiations?
 
RedTiger said:
What was agreed in the preliminary negotiations?
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The conditions for a meeting - denuking, sanctions relief, demilitarization of the peninsula etc. Both sides had to have some meat on the bone to proceed to a meeting between both leaders in Singapore. Otherwise it wouldn't be worth it to either side.
 
langster said:
Anyone with an ounce of understanding of North Korea and an ounce of common sense knew Kim was just playing Trump like a fiddle for the absolute moronic fool he is. These posts of yours above look awful now after the immensely obvious news of Kim backtracking from talks especially after Trumps moronic and dangerous removal of the USA from the Iran deal.

Yeah Kim will definitely go for talks for a deal with a man who pulls out of similar deals with other countries. The art of the deal indeed. Damn so many of Trump supporters are so like Trump. Gullible and clueless and completely unable to accept the man is just on a giant scam for his own benefit and to destroy anything Obama did beforehand.
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I know you thrive on the high octane world of roided up geo politics but all Kim really wants is some western investment which hopefully he’ll get for everybody’s sake. Maybe it takes a clown like trump to cut through the bullshit and stop kicking the can down the road
 
4bars said:
Everybody keeps repeating that Iran is very powerful. In which sense? how powerful is his army to claim that "power"?

Also about reliable allies. If US would invade with Israel and SA backing up, do you think China or Russia would face US + allies in an open war?
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Iran is not Iraq. Iran is a much more powerful state than Iraq was. Iran would lose, but the cost of doing so would be far more bloody, and it would simply result in a long protracted insurgency, and the US has proven it's pretty much clueless at COIN.

Syria and Lebanon have been proving grounds for Iranian and Russian weapons, of which Iran has plenty of both. Iraq had export quality weapon systems from coldwar era USSR. The majority of the tanks Iraq had for example, might as well have been cardboard cut outs, because they were equipped with such drastically inferior ammunition and optics that they were being engaged from ranges that were more than a kilometer beyond their own range.

This would not be the case with Iran. Iran has modern, powerful air defense systems. Compromising them would be very costly. Once those are compromised, the US would then need to deal with MANPADs (man portable air defense units, think Stingers). US military supremacy is predicated on absolute control of the airspace, so as to effect overwhelming air and artillery superiority. US infantry are pretty much just there to get shot at, so they can call in fire support and obliterate whatever they are engaged by.

Basically, the cost of invading Iran would be much higher than the cost of invading Iraq. The country is already incredibly divided, tolerance for war casualties is extremely low. There would also be no easy exit strategy.

Far more dead and wounded, far more materiel losses. It would be a fiasco, with little gain. Iran is not a global threat. Basically in a cost benefit analysis, only a lunatic would say "Yea, let's invade Iran". Not to mention the potential for China and or Russia to become involved in some manner. The usual will be continued. Economic sanctions. Diplomatically isolated.
 
4bars said:
Agree in the last 2 paragraphs, but what do you base that military preparation on? would like to have some sources or is just assumptions?
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The fact the US deposed their democratically elected ruled in 1953. In 1979 Islamic reactionaries launched their own coup. The US responded by goading Iraq to attack Iran, and then supplied and funded Iraq, including chemical weapons which Iraq used against Iran. Ever since then, Iran has been preparing for a direct confrontation with the US. It's not a big secret. You could probably also argue successfully, that Irans international intelligence operations, are resultant from this fear. Iran seeks to engage and undermine US interests in the region, because US interests in the region are seen as potentially an existential threat to the regime.
 
Steven Seagull said:
I know you thrive on the high octane world of roided up geo politics but all Kim really wants is some western investment which hopefully he’ll get for everybody’s sake. Maybe it takes a clown like trump to cut through the bullshit and stop kicking the can down the road
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I don't thrive on it at all, despair at it more like. Trump won't get anywhere with his childish behaviour and threats. Backing out of the Iran deal despite everyone else saying it was a bad move and for the wrong reasons and that he was wrong saying Iran have been breaking the deal, then expecting Kim to accept a similar deal is just naive, ignorant and moronic.

Kim has played Trump like a fiddle and so are most other world leaders. Trump has shown how insecure he is and everyone knows you just have to stroke his ego and he will roll over and show his belly. He has single handedly destroyed the USA's reputation around the world and has upset the majority of allies too. The irony being his supporters are so brainwashed and deluded that they think he's adored and respected where in truth it's the exact opposite and he has taken the country from being the world's leading and greatest superpower to now lagging seriously behind China and Russia and in many regards, Europe too.

Trump is all piss and wind as his attack on Syria showed. He did exactly what he bitches about previous Presidents doing when he announed days before the attack that one was coming. He's made.emoty threats and started ridiculous tradewars and has destroyed regulations put in place to prevent everything from national parks being destroyed, illegal oil drilling to water purity, banking crashes and offshore oil rig disasters.

But yeah, he's odds on for a nobel peace prize :lol: What a fecking joke.
 
US vows 'strongest sanctions in history' on Iran
In a speech in Washington, America's top diplomat said Iran would be "battling to keep its economy alive" after the sanctions took effect. He said he would work closely with the Pentagon and regional allies "to deter any Iranian aggression".
He laid out 12 conditions that Washington would need to be met for any "new deal" with Tehran, including pulling all its forces out of Syria and ending support for rebels in Yemen. Mr Pompeo said relief from sanctions would only come when Washington had seen a real change in Iran's policies. "We will apply unprecedented financial pressure on the Iranian regime," he said. "The leaders in Tehran will have no doubt about our seriousness. "Iran will never again have carte blanche to dominate the Middle East."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44200621
 
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