Again pretty unconvincing from Woakes and Jordan. Long term I'd look at bringing back Finn and eventually settling on just one of Woakes/Stokes/Jordan as the all rounder. With Moeen as the spinner and Broad now at 10 I'm not sure there's any need for such deep batting. With proper batsmen at the crease I'm not overly convinced Woakes and Jordan can get wickets so we need another proper bowler. Not seen much of Finn since his exile but I've always thought he's potentially very very good, just needs a bit of work and TLC.
India's tour of England
- Thread starter KM
- Start date
Cricinfo tells me 2002 WI.
Played a few 4 test ones in the last few years -- at home to Aus and Eng, away to Aus and England.
Pujara, Kohli and Vijay played in the home ones(I think Vijay didn't play the one against England at home)..
Away, this is their first time. And this is their first time playing a long series without a senior player.
His batting has been courageous -- more so than we have seen in the past, away from home. He has applied himself better than many of our batsmen on tour, but I think it is possibly time for some fresh ideas.
The pitches in the 2nd test and this one were excellent.
Complete joke - Malinga the slinga.Nobody will ever convince me his bowling action is legit
Wow, hammered again. Not sure what we could have done differently, with the group of players that we took on tour.
Warne just called Dhoni's bowling chances bizarre, weird, lacking common sense and logic.
Who else is there? From the outside I'm a bit baffled that India can produce such a poor test side.
Hmmm. Bit lightweight on the bowling attack, but there's class in the batting. Kohli et al should really be putting more runs on the board than they are doing. Class players (such as Kohli) should be able to bat on any surface. Dip in form maybe, still a top player. Dhoni will probably take most of the flack, but for me it lies at the feet of Fletcher and the team as a whole.
True, all that.
It was also ridiculous when Ashwin defended his bowling and called 'it happens' about India giving wickets to Ali.
Nobody will ever convince me his bowling action is legit
It is legit. His arm is dead straight when he bowls.
Dhoni's place in the side can't be questioned. His captaincy decisions, yes but batting wise he has done better than many top order batsmen.
I thought that for years when Paul Adams was about bowling the chinaman. I thought no way is that a legal action. Murali was borderline tbh.Nobody will ever convince me his bowling action is legit
Yes, I know, it's called humour, note the green smiley. It just looks bloody wrong.
Anderson vs Kohli.
There seems to be a lot of sniggering at Ali taking wickets.
Fact is he hasn't bowled like a part timer at all. He's bowled like a top quality spin bowler the last two games.
Yup. The more Indians fail to recognise his good bowling and continue to remain in bubble of delusion that 'it happens' more chance they will keep giving wickets to him.
Yes he hasn't bowled 'special', but has bowled well enough to be paid proper attention to. Either during defending or during attacking, Indian batsmen haven't done enough in terms of concentration and application as they would do to any supposedly proper spinner. These are the same players who handle Ajmal very well in more favorable conditions for spin bowling because there they apply themselves properly.
Yeah I don't know what more Ali could do than legally change his name to Graeme Swann for people to actually respect him. He's holding one end up in the first innings, and he's bowled a team out two tests in row in the second innings, he beats both sides of the bat, turns the ball, bowls at a decent pace with good variations and decent control.
He's a good enough spinner to demand being played properly.
I think England's options now might be to bat him at 7 or 8 and bring in a specialist batsman at 6. I'm not sure he's quite good enough to make it as a test 6, but he's got the talent to.
A lot will depend on Buttler. If he keeps batting the way he has been then there is no reason to change it IMO. Gives England the option of batting deep and playing 5 genuine bowlers.
Ashwin's attitude is terrible and has always been. A lot of Indian players are bad like that.
Is Jadeja the most brainless player we've had?
It's genuinely baffling that he's encouraged by Dhoni and Fletcher to bat like this. It's a joke.
It's genuinely baffling that he's encouraged by Dhoni and Fletcher to bat like this. It's a joke.
IPL as trashed Indian test cricket.
Disagree, Rahane has used it as a good platform and him, Pujara and Kohli will thrive over time in the Test arena. Also a young fella by the name of Sanju Samson has used it as a platform and he looks positively excellent. The exposure of young Indian players to top class International cricketers helps them no end, Bhuvaneshwar for instance must have picked up a few things off of Dale Steyn.
Man I feel like I've watched a whole era of English cricket in 3 weeks, from the late 90's up at Lord's to the late 00's these last two games. Bell's back, Ballance and Root look positively excellent (both seem to be able to up the pace when needed too 
), Buttler was ready in eyes after that Sri Lanka innings and he will tail off but the talent is worth persisting with and Ali looks like a proper bowler (reminding me of the job Lyon does for Clarke). Elephant in the room is the pace bowling and opening slot, Anderson and Broad bowl far too much and Robson isn't up to scratch IMO. Carberry deserves another shot or failing that we can nick another Yorkshire player in Lyth, and I think Finn needs to come in and Jordan needs to sort his run up and get some more natural rhythm (imagine how quick he could bowl!).
), Buttler was ready in eyes after that Sri Lanka innings and he will tail off but the talent is worth persisting with and Ali looks like a proper bowler (reminding me of the job Lyon does for Clarke). Elephant in the room is the pace bowling and opening slot, Anderson and Broad bowl far too much and Robson isn't up to scratch IMO. Carberry deserves another shot or failing that we can nick another Yorkshire player in Lyth, and I think Finn needs to come in and Jordan needs to sort his run up and get some more natural rhythm (imagine how quick he could bowl!).What Steyn does is not mystery. It is that he has mastered both traditional swing and reverse swing to very good effect along with immaculate line and length and he does that at express speed. Bhuvi is good 20ks slower than Steyn in speed, so he will never have same impact. If nothing else is working for Steyn, he can still get batsmen out with express pace bang on target, which Bhuvi won't be able to, most probably ever. Nothing wrong with that, he can be a good bowler still within his limits. A 5-6ks more will help though as once batsmen figure him out, an average speed of 125-130k won't look threatening.
What Steyn does is not mystery. It is that he has mastered both traditional swing and reverse swing to very good effect along with immaculate line and length and he does that at express speed. Bhuvi is good 20ks slower than Steyn in speed, so he will never have same impact. If nothing else is working for Steyn, he can still get batsmen out with express pace bang on target, which Bhuvi won't be able to, most probably ever. Nothing wrong with that, he can be a good bowler still within his limits. A 5-6ks more will help though as once batsmen figure him out, an average speed of 125-130k won't look threatening.
So Steyn can't talk to him about technique, seam position, wrist position, variations etc. Bollocks. It's nothing about being a mystery it's wealth of knowledge which he can feed of off, better than peddling around the Ranji Trophy on flat decks. There's more to bowling than just pace and Bhuvaneshwar can bowl quicker unless that IPL speedometer is lying. McGrath and Pollock are testament to what nibbling the ball at low 80's can do.
Err, do you think international players pass on tricks like that in IPL? They don't. There was discussion on this iirc during some IPL game and it was told that they don't go beyond a point to discuss/share info about international teammates' or other strategies/weapons.
As far as technique, seam position etc is concerned, Bhuvi has learnt them but I will be very surprised if it was from Steyn. There are many game's greats who tip/coach players about techniques etc so it is not something which only Steyn knows or has invented. Knowing and implementing it successfully at highest levels are different things though.
IPL speedometers won't lie but bowling 4 overs in a match against bowling in test are two different things. That should be obvious.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/cricketnext/im-learning-a-lot-from-steyn-bhuvneshwar-kumar/470483-78.html
http://sports.ndtv.com/england-vs-i...-credits-dale-steyn-praveen-kumar-for-success
"In the IPL, I learnt from Dale Steyn. Our bowling styles are quite different but he is a great bowler and you can always pick something from the way he bowls. He has given me a lot of tips during matches which I have tried in my bowling."
They're teammates of course they will talk to each other. Kumar's death bowling was excellent in the IPL IIRC and there are many things you can carry over to test cricket, I didn't say he'd learn everything from IPL but it does have some use to young Indian cricketers.
I see. Still, you seriously think he will go into details of swing and technique too much during IPL practice? To be fair, Bhuvi must be having his own coaches and he is intelligent himself to try different things. Ya, as a IPL teammate, during game Steyn might be giving him some advice on how to bowl, where to bowl or help a bit in practice but my point is, that is not something which is gift of IPL and that help must be only up to a certain level.
Wasim has worked with Indian bowlers on swing technique in past, pre-IPL. Otherwise too, there is much to learn for upcoming bowlers just by watching Steyn. It is in the end about how fast players learn, keep adapting and keep sharpening their skills. Irfan Pathan was blessed with such tremendous swing capability at higher pace but couldn't sustain. So, Bhuvi's challenge won't be learning swing techniques, but sharpening them continuously.
I said Bhuvaneshwar must have picked up a few things off of Steyn, is that such a stretch? I have no idea why this was questionable in any way. Exposure to international cricketers and coaches will have it's uses, it won't build a player but you can use it as a platform to play with and against top players and develop some skills. Obviously I feel some Indian bowlers would be best served doing County stints to develop further (Zaheer did one at Worcestershire?) but Pete's suggestion (most likely a WUM) that the IPL is trashing Indian players is wrong. I just don't think Fletcher has got the team balance right and India's top 5 has let them down and dare I say it India miss Ishant Sharma
.I said Bhuvaneshwar must have picked up a few things off of Steyn, is that such a stretch? I have no idea why this was questionable in any way. Exposure to international cricketers and coaches will have it's uses, it won't build a player but you can use it as a platform to play with and against top players and develop some skills. Obviously I feel some Indian bowlers would be best served doing County stints to develop further (Zaheer did one at Worcestershire?) but Pete's suggestion (most likely a WUM) that the IPL is trashing Indian players is wrong. I just don't think Fletcher has got the team balance right and India's top 5 has let them down and dare I say it India miss Ishant Sharma
I understood it more as something which happened because of IPL and otherwise he would not have been that skilled on swing which I don't believe. It is not exactly a WUM what Pete said. Even in India you will get many many who will blame IPL for India's failure in tests away from home. We had started to get better in 2000s with few close series away. It has again gone all downhill since 2011.
Ya, good old way of county stints can help but they used to take place during season when IPL takes place nowadays.
Hard to criticise such a young and developing team, it's so inexperienced. Sharma's injury hasn't helped, Kohli and Pujara haven't shown how good they are. They did well I felt in South Africa just lacked that extra seamer (Bhuvaneshwar didn't play IIRC). Didn't watch the New Zealand series but it looks like India were 41 runs off winning that series effectively? Let down by a few bad bowling innings. India's problems lie in the spin department (of all the places) and the opening slot.
I think both peterstorey and you are right to some extent. I am sure the IPL helps for all these players to talk to players like Steyn and the others, but it'd be wrong to attribute Rahane's success to it or even part of it. Rahane was an accomplished first class player even before he came good in the IPL.
At the same time, it can't be a coincidence that some very good first class players are having questionable shot selection after the IPL came around.
Vijay, when he debuted, was very compact. After that he started being an IPL regular and was dodgy outside off. Now, he's again found that discipline. It's tough for players to adapt to 3 different formats, I would think. Of this, test cricket takes the longest 'adapting' time because you need high mental discipline.
The "That is his natural game" defense of Jadeja is out again..
"Again the problem is who do you have to replace him?" Dhoni said. "Again you will fall back on the same thing of going with an extra batter and not having that fifth bowler when you really need him. That is how Jadeja plays. The more he plays the better he will get. We are hoping that it happens soon. We have seen glimpses of it. He will have to back himself to play the same kind of cricket. That is something that will give him the confidence. Hopefully he will keep hitting the ball."
Is the stupidity of this for real? If his natural game is to average 20 runs in test cricket, go right back to Ranji trophy.
"Again the problem is who do you have to replace him?" Dhoni said. "Again you will fall back on the same thing of going with an extra batter and not having that fifth bowler when you really need him. That is how Jadeja plays. The more he plays the better he will get. We are hoping that it happens soon. We have seen glimpses of it. He will have to back himself to play the same kind of cricket. That is something that will give him the confidence. Hopefully he will keep hitting the ball."
Is the stupidity of this for real? If his natural game is to average 20 runs in test cricket, go right back to Ranji trophy.
dafuq is Jadeja is offering as bowler anyway? Dhoni goes out of his way to support his CSK teammates. I am not much supporter of Rohit but why not give him more chances and 'hope' he will come good if that is how India are going to go about with Jadeja? All hope. Moyesification of Indian cricket team.
Jadeja has bowled better than Ashwin has in away tests and as a bowler, he's rightly ahead of him.
As a batsman the guy has always been shite. I've no idea how he's managed to score 2 triple hundreds.
As a batsman the guy has always been shite. I've no idea how he's managed to score 2 triple hundreds.
Ya, Ashwin is no good as bowler away either.
Shame for Sharma. He would have bowled well on the tracks he's missed out on.
Will he be ready for the Oval, as they haven't sent him home?
Will he be ready for the Oval, as they haven't sent him home?
No official news yet but he should play Oval game.
When asked if any instructions were sent out to the batsmen keeping in mind the forecast, Dhoni said: "We are talking about a set of batsmen well experienced, not necessarily in Test cricket, but they have been part of the side enough to know what has to be done in each situation. We also tell them to break each session into small sessions of half an hour, and set small targets for them to achieve. That helps you to achieve what you want to, and as you said, bat 60 overs.
"If you look at it, 60 overs is a big target, and what you need to do is to break into four or five overs and set a target to achieve. That's the kind of spell bowlers go with - five or six overs. If you want to look at the positive, then all the batsmen have passed the tough passage when two bowlers were bowling well and then they have got out. Most of them have scored 20 to 30 runs before getting out. So the most important part is to convert those starts into big scores."
Can we get rid of this idiot already?
"If you look at it, 60 overs is a big target, and what you need to do is to break into four or five overs and set a target to achieve. That's the kind of spell bowlers go with - five or six overs. If you want to look at the positive, then all the batsmen have passed the tough passage when two bowlers were bowling well and then they have got out. Most of them have scored 20 to 30 runs before getting out. So the most important part is to convert those starts into big scores."
Can we get rid of this idiot already?