India politics thread

digitalnirvana said:
19 lakh Bangladeshi immigrants were left out of that list with 60% or so of them Hindu. The CAB aims to correct that in a roundabout way. Which is now causing the protests.
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People who served in the Indian army were excluded from the NRC. People who had been living in Assam for ages were excluded from the NRC. CAB becomes a backdoor from them.
It’s too simplistic and naive to say that all 19L are Bangladeshi immigrants.
Assam was hoping to have all kinds of immigrants taken away and is now stuck with non-Muslim immigrants.
 
AshRK said:
I can see why some Indians finding this bill useless but why are people from Pakistan and Bangladesh getting so affected. Do they want India to consult with them in everything they do before passing a bill?
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I can't speak for Pakistan, but Bangladesh has been edging towards Bengali nationalism for a few decades now. If the seven sisters make this a solely anti-bengali uprising then I fear there will be serious bloodshed on both sides of the border.
 
van der star said:
But that's not entirely true. Even within the Muslim population, the Ahmadis and Shi'as are still widely persecuted in these countries. As are atheists. It's a clear cut case of the government using communal politics to further their agenda, and sadly, it's working.

Moving on to integrating all these immigrants into the country, sure, I agree we shouldn't turn away those that genuinely need help, but I absolutely don't agree with helping people on the basis of religion.
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I agree on all except last line. After
the country is broken for Muslims greed to be separate nation. Why do illegal Muslims from those countries should be given citizenship in India. Only persecuted people should be allowed, not economic migrant Muslims. In most western countries, genuine refugees(whose life is in danger in their countries) are given citizenship but economic migrants are shown the door. That is exactly the situation here.

Ideally India should do a population exchange with Pakistan by exchanging Muslims who don't want to be in India with non Muslims (incl ahmadis and shias) who wanted to leave Pak. During partition people ran away for their lives, now as civilized people, they should migrate and exchanged in a right way. That is the only way to solve kashmir issue as well.
 
redsunited said:
I agree on all except last line. After
the country is broken for Muslims greed to be separate nation. Why do illegal Muslims from those countries should be given citizenship in India. Only persecuted people should be allowed, not economic migrant Muslims. In most western countries, genuine refugees(whose life is in danger in their countries) are given citizenship but economic migrants are shown the door. That is exactly the situation here.

Ideally India should do a population exchange with Pakistan by exchanging Muslims who don't want to be in India with non Muslims (incl ahmadis and shias) who wanted to leave Pak. During partition people ran away for their lives, now as civilized people, they should migrate and exchanged in a right way. That is the only way to solve kashmir issue as well.
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That is the essence of my argument.

Nowhere did I mention economic migrants. As far as Western countries are concerned, genuine refugees are accepted but so are economic migrants as long as they offer high value returns on the investment the local government is doing in them. But that's a whole other topic.

Out of curiosity, how many Muslims do you know in India that would like to move to Pakistan or some other Islamic country? Because in the few years I've lived in India, I can honestly say I didn't meet a single Muslim who wasn't proud to be an Indian. Maybe that's because I was brought up in an army background but that's my personal experience.
 
RedTiger said:
I can't speak for Pakistan, but Bangladesh has been edging towards Bengali nationalism for a few decades now. If the seven sisters make this a solely anti-bengali uprising then I fear there will be serious bloodshed on both sides of the border.
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Both sides of the border? That's interesting to know the perspective.

So bloodshed from one side of the border is 7 sisters local people against bengali illegal migrants. What is the other side? Who will do bloodshed against whom?
 
redsunited said:
Both sides of the border? That's interesting to know the perspective.

So bloodshed from one side of the border is 7 sisters local people against bengali illegal migrants. What is the other side? Who will do bloodshed against whom?
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Do you know anything about the ethnic demographics of Bangladesh? Bangladesh has many north eastern ethnicities that reside here (especially Manipuris) for education and work, they will be targeted if bengalis are targeted in the seven sisters. The animosity between bengalis and people of the North east is not recent, the dislike goes back a couple of hundred years.

I'd just like to add that I bear no ill will towards any people from the seven sisters, I honestly think ethnic nationalism is stupid. We all share the same Himalayan watershed, the same watershed that is dwindling every single day.

The people of the gangetic plains have some serious serious upcoming environmental problems that we all need to confront as a united front. It's a shame we're burying our heads in the sand.
 
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van der star said:
That is the essence of my argument.

Nowhere did I mention economic migrants. As far as Western countries are concerned, genuine refugees are accepted but so are economic migrants as long as they offer high value returns on the investment the local government is doing in them. But that's a whole other topic.

Out of curiosity, how many Muslims do you know in India that would like to move to Pakistan or some other Islamic country? Because in the few years I've lived in India, I can honestly say I didn't meet a single Muslim who wasn't proud to be an Indian. Maybe that's because I was brought up in an army background but that's my personal experience.
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Issue is illegal economic migrants, not legal ones. They are not accepted anywhere. India is doing the same.

I too never met a Muslim who is longing to migrate to Pakistan. I have met quite a few in UK too who wants sharia law to be common law. Those people can very well move to the land where it is common law and live happily thereafter, rather than asking for it in other places. So does anyone who opposes UCC in India.
 
Everyone is missing the point. CAB in itself is not the point of contention, it is the sinister design to club it with NRC that is being protested against. Along with illegal migrants indian muslims will also be declared illegal. No indian muslim i know gives a flying feck if hindus from pakistan are given citizenship on a platter or that migrant muslims are being denied entry, what they give a shit about is them being declared illegal and thrown into detention camps.
 
coolredwine said:
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...zenship-amendment-bill-bjp-1627678-2019-12-12

Literally takes a second to find anything on the internet these days. The absolute numbers in Bangladesh are actually up, just that the percentage of the whole is down.

I will let you find the reason for that. ;)
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So going by the stats from the article, the minority population is atleast halved now from 1951(east + west pak).

Also non Muslims senses in pak is a black hole. Many minorities and also sects like Ahmadis do pretend as Muslims to escape persecution, ahmadis added to non Muslim population by govt senses etc. so senses data do get skewed by it.
 
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RedTiger said:
Do you know anything about the ethnic demographics of Bangladesh? Bangladesh has many north eastern ethnicities that reside here (especially Manipuris) for education and work, they will be targeted if bengalis are targeted in the seven sisters. The animosity between bengalis and people of the North east is not recent, the dislike goes back a couple of hundred years.

I'd just like to add that I bear no ill will towards any people from the seven sisters, I honestly think ethnic nationalism is stupid. We all share the same Himalayan watershed, the same watershed that is dwindling every single day.

The people of the gangetic plains have some serious serious upcoming environmental problems that we all need to confront as a united front. It's a shame we're burying our heads in the sand.
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Good to know about it.
 
redsunited said:
So going by the stats from the article, the minority population is atleast halved now from 1951(east + west pak).
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In Pakistan, it has remained the same. In Bangladesh, it has gone down, yes.

Also non Muslims senses in pak is a black hole. Many minorities and also sects like Ahmadis do pretend as Muslims to escape persecution, ahmadis added to non Muslim population by govt senses etc. so senses data do get skewed by it.
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They are considered as minorities in Pakistan.
 
coolredwine said:
People who served in the Indian army were excluded from the NRC. People who had been living in Assam for ages were excluded from the NRC. CAB becomes a backdoor from them.
It’s too simplistic and naive to say that all 19L are Bangladeshi immigrants.
Assam was hoping to have all kinds of immigrants taken away and is now stuck with non-Muslim immigrants.
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If you read up on the history of Assam student protests and the subsequent assam accord it is clear why it is so important for them to keep immigrants out. To an extent it is understandable because their heterogeneous culture stands to be overrun by the much larger bengali immigrants - and I'm not just talking about bangladeshis here. A lot of bengalis including my distant forefathers migrated from Assam to what is now west bengal. I bear no ill will to the Assamese for this, their population is low like the rest of NE and they're trying to keep it that way. What's funny is that the liberals are trying to portray the Assam protests as some sort of vindication that the CAB is stoking religious divisions. The bill is evil and I'm not backing it, but the Assam protests are completely different from the rest of the country. Yes they will feel betrayed and the BJP likely lose the whole of NE in coming elections.
 
coolredwine said:
Hence why I said this:
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Well obviously every mass protest is anti government. If I protest the porn ban that too would be anti government.

Comparing NE to the rest of bordering states like WB, the agenda and goal of the protests are both different. The goal in Assam is to prevent any Bangladeshi migrants from getting citizenship. Goal in WB is to prevent any Muslim immigrants being delisted in NRC.
 
Interval said:
The bill is an honourable one :lol:

The mental gymnastics required to say something like this.
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Care to explain how the bill is dishonourable?that is If you had anything useful to say, rather than playing victimhood.
Maybe you are worried that your mental gymnastics would be found out.
 
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redsunited said:
Care to explain how the bill is dishonourable?that is If you had anything useful to say, rather than playing victimhood.
Maybe you are worried that your mental gymnastics would be found out.
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This video explains pretty well why this bill is not only a sham, but also goes against the constitution.

 
redsunited said:
Care to explain how the bill is dishonourable?that is If you had anything useful to say, rather than playing victimhood.
Maybe you are worried that your mental gymnastics would be found out.
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The moment a law discriminates between people due to their background, it is dishonourable.

What's so difficult about it?
 
redsunited said:
Every religion except Muslims which is majority religion is mentioned in the bill. Majority religion cannot be called as persecuted.

Pakistan and Bangladesh had wiped off their religious minority after creating their Muslim majority country. India is trying to give citizenship to those who fleed from those countries. Whatever be the reason like votebank or not, the bill is a honourable move.
One mistake is not excluding the whole of North East from the bill. For a century they have issue of overpopulated bengalis settling in their lands and changing the demography. Other bigger states don't have any issue in accommodating the persecuted people.
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1. It ignores the complex reality of life which is that Ahmadiyyas and Shiites can also be persecuted because within Pakistan they aren't the dominant communities. Just like Hindus are Vaishnavites or Smarthas and so on, Islam also is not a monolith (well more so than Hindus but still has sects)

2. Pakistan and Bangladesh are not serious countries.

Pakistan is a country that sponsors terrorism and this widely known and accepted even by its great ally the United States.
Bangladesh's 1972 constitution stated it was a secular state but Islam became the state religion and it isn't one anymore.

Pakistan was created as a Muslim homeland. Even its so called liberals (so widely worshipped in left wing academia) like Bhutto have called it a Islamic state. Zia who had Bhutto executed called it an ideological state. He said "Take out the Judaism from Israel and it will fall like a house of cards. Take Islam out of Pakistan and make it a secular state; it would collapse."

India is supposed to be a country for all faiths. It is not based on erasure of religion but tolerating all religions - which is (allegedly) a Hindu value (though it is increasingly hard to see how true that is) It is the natural homeland for at least three major faiths and you could make a case that it is also a Parsi homeland now. I should hope India has higher standards than the likes of Pakistan and China.


coolredwine said:
The moment a law discriminates between people due to their background, it is dishonourable.

What's so difficult about it?
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His answer is going to be on the lines of "well Muslims have dozens of Islamic majority countries to flee to but where will Hindus go?"

I wouldn't use the word 'dishnourable' per se. A lot of pro restitution or affirmative action laws have to discriminate on the basis of someone's background.
 
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redsunited said:
Thanks for the video. Unfortunately it is in Hindi, which is not my language. Please share an English video if possible.
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Didn't find a video which explains those exact points but this one will have to do -



I'm sure you're familiar with who this guy is and the weight his words carry.
 
So Hindu population hasn't actually declined in Pakistan. Surprised that Amit Shah is being proved to be a lie peddler. Very surprised :wenger:

Another reason why this bill is dishonorable.
 
MDFC Manager said:
So Hindu population hasn't actually declined in Pakistan. Surprised that Amit Shah is being proved to be a lie peddler. Very surprised :wenger:

Another reason why this bill is dishonorable.
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From the BBC

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-50720273

How many non-Muslims?
Amit Shah, India's Home Minister, says Pakistan's non-Muslim population has dwindled dramatically since 1951.
This follows the mass exodus of non-Muslims from Pakistan after partition in 1947 and the flight of Muslims from India to Pakistan.
Mr Shah cited a remaining minority population in Pakistan of 23% in 1951, and he says this has shrunk over the decades due to persecution.
But Mr Shah's figures need to be challenged as he appears to have combined the data for what is now the state of Pakistan (formerly west Pakistan) with what is now Bangladesh (formerly east Pakistan).
Census data for 1998 shows that the Hindu population of Pakistan (which was formerly west Pakistan) had not really changed significantly from its 1951 level of around 1.5 to 2%.
But the data also suggests that the Hindu population of Bangladesh did fall - from around 22% or 23% in 1951 to around 8% in 2011.


Census data from two decades ago is hardly great evidence to counter Amit Shah's crap. Pak haven't released details of the 2017 census yet.
 
Haddock said:
From the BBC

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-50720273

How many non-Muslims?
Amit Shah, India's Home Minister, says Pakistan's non-Muslim population has dwindled dramatically since 1951.
This follows the mass exodus of non-Muslims from Pakistan after partition in 1947 and the flight of Muslims from India to Pakistan.
Mr Shah cited a remaining minority population in Pakistan of 23% in 1951, and he says this has shrunk over the decades due to persecution.
But Mr Shah's figures need to be challenged as he appears to have combined the data for what is now the state of Pakistan (formerly west Pakistan) with what is now Bangladesh (formerly east Pakistan).
Census data for 1998 shows that the Hindu population of Pakistan (which was formerly west Pakistan) had not really changed significantly from its 1951 level of around 1.5 to 2%.
But the data also suggests that the Hindu population of Bangladesh did fall - from around 22% or 23% in 1951 to around 8% in 2011.


Census data from two decades ago is hardly great evidence to counter Amit Shah's crap. Pak haven't released details of the 2017 census yet.
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Since when did we become saviors of fleeing religious minorities? Did nothing for the poor Rohingyas but now espouse some ideal that suits the narrative? Using political will to go about making changes to the social fabric of the country rather than expand on the initial platform of growth and development shows that there is nothing honorable about this. Appealing to latent nationalism garbed racism of the people is Trumpish at best and the unthinkable at worst.

There is no liberal/ centrist/ right wing in this. Whatever your political leaning is, the reasons of doing what is happening should be obvious.
 
I wasn't able to get back to my house because there was a battle in the surrounding areas between the police and protestors. I got back late at night after being stuck many hours and saw burnt cars and buses, the entire stretch of the main road infront of my colony was full of shattered glass. My colonies main entrance was vandalized and i saw green dtc buses full of crpf being rushed in.
 
Haddock said:
1. It ignores the complex reality of life which is that Ahmadiyyas and Shiites can also be persecuted because within Pakistan they aren't the dominant communities. Just like Hindus are Vaishnavites or Smarthas and so on, Islam also is not a monolith (well more so than Hindus but still has sects)

2. Pakistan and Bangladesh are not serious countries.

Pakistan is a country that sponsors terrorism and this widely known and accepted even by its great ally the United States.
Bangladesh's 1972 constitution stated it was a secular state but Islam became the state religion and it isn't one anymore.

Pakistan was created as a Muslim homeland. Even its so called liberals (so widely worshipped in left wing academia) like Bhutto have called it a Islamic state. Zia who had Bhutto executed called it an ideological state. He said "Take out the Judaism from Israel and it will fall like a house of cards. Take Islam out of Pakistan and make it a secular state; it would collapse."

India is supposed to be a country for all faiths. It is not based on erasure of religion but tolerating all religions - which is (allegedly) a Hindu value (though it is increasingly hard to see how true that is) It is the natural homeland for at least three major faiths and you could make a case that it is also a Parsi homeland now. I should hope India has higher standards than the likes of Pakistan and China.




His answer is going to be on the lines of "well Muslims have dozens of Islamic majority countries to flee to but where will Hindus go?"

I wouldn't use the word 'dishnourable' per se. A lot of pro restitution or affirmative action laws have to discriminate on the basis of someone's background.
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More precisely, those are immigrant Muslims from the nation which is created by diving India based on Islam. Why should illegal Muslim immigrants from the divided part had to be given same priority with persecuted people.

Countries like UK, US send back economic illegal migrants. Indians and Pakistanis are sent back few months back as well. India should be no different.
 
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