India politics thread

Am I right in remembering that you were supportive of demonetization first?
No. That would be TMH :)

I was ok with demonetization plan and extremely critical of the implementation steps taken. And also the blatant lies and flip flops that govt was making.

Now that I am able to get a better idea of the Pains Vs Gains and also analyze its effects, I am beginning to feel that even the move was not properly thought through.
 
Let's just face it, it was a great move in idea, but implemented horribly. I don't know if it could have been implemented any better though.
My very thought on this was that 50 days is way too less for a country like India. It was always going to be.

The implementation could have been much better by ensuring some easy steps. But it was made worse with all the chest beating and those stupid #SurgicalStrikes analogies. But then, we are supposed to keep quiet on this matter since we are unaffected. :smirk:
 
So i left this thread cause people were trolling me ton why i was questioning the implementation. Glad to see the mood change and most people come around. Foreign media is calling it right, here is steve forbes take on it(article out jan 17)
Steve Forbes writes stinging editorial on demonetisation, calls it ‘immoral’ and ‘sickening’
Forbes said in the editorial that the move by the government will harm its people and set a dreadful example for the world.
Steve Forbes, chairman and editor-in-chief of Forbes Media, added his voice to the stream of criticism by the foreign media of the government’s demonetisation move in a hard-hitting editorial calling it “immoral” and an “awful act”. In the article, that will appear in the January 24, 2017 print issue of the magazine but already available online, Forbes censured the Narendra Modi government for withdrawing 86 per cent of legal currency in the country in an ‘unprecedented act’ that will significantly hurt the economy.

“Not since India’s short-lived forced-sterilization program in the 1970s–this bout of Nazi-like eugenics was instituted to deal with the country’s “overpopulation”–has the government engaged in something so immoral,” Forbes wrote. “Terrorists aren’t about to quit their evil acts because of a currency change. As for the digitization of money, it will happen in its own good time if free markets are permitted. And the best cure for tax evasion is a flat tax or, at the least, a simple, low-rate tax system that renders tax evasion hardly worth the effort. Make it easy to do business legally and most people will do just that.”


Stressing on the nature of the Indian economy where majority of the transactions are still done in cash, Forbes said India’s “awful act” underscores another piece of immorality that money represents what people produce in the real world. “Governments don’t create resources, people do,” he wrote, adding that what “India has done is commit a massive theft” of people’s property “without even the pretense of due process”. He wrote that this was a “shocking move for a democratically elected government.”

While announcing the surprise move on the night of November 8, PM Modi had given a deadline of December 30 until which people can exchange their old Rs 500 and Rs 1000 bills with new notes. But long queues at banks and ATMs are still being reported as the Reserve Bank attempts to pump new notes into the market. The government has maintained that the radical move to demonetise notes will end corruption, slash at the roots of terrorist funding from counterfeit notes and flush out black money from the economy. It also said the move will help India turn into a ‘cashless’ economy that thrives on digital transactions.

Forbes said in the editorial that the move by the government will harm its people and set a dreadful example for the world. He added the government must find ways to slash income and business tax rates and attempt to make the rupee as strong as the Swiss franc.

Meanwhile, in an editorial The Wall Street Journal tried to highlight how the state has far greater means to harm the public in a cashless, “both through inept policies and abuses of power”. The December 22 opinion piece, the WSJ said”the government should respect citizens who want to keep some cash. “Imposing a ‘cashless society’ is antithetical to economic liberty.”
 
Tldr: It's a brilliant move. The economist article you published has an one sided analysis and does not account for the money entering into the system. The HT article does not account for the bucket size of each transaction, and takes sum of whole as opposed to sum of individual parts.

Long story:
Let me first off state that the claim that black money would be erased due to this one action is false pretense. The term as is pointed out in the article you posted, refers to ill gotten gains due to misrepresentation of income.

However, one aspect that does not seem to be discussed is the disruption of existing buying power of people who misrepresented their income. Whether this be small house owners who sold their house, or SMEs who dealt with cash transactions. If they did deposit this money in the bank, they'd have had to use their PAN to account for it. If they didn't, then they did hoard the cash below their bed, which now is worthless.

My basic understanding is that the minute this misrepresented money enters into any form of legal transaction (Bank deposits etc.), they enter into the economic realm of the nation. And if it does get accounted for in the formal economic realm then it no longer is in the black system.

If this leads to more money into the formal economic system, then we have to a large extent reduced the buying power of the people in this practice.

I still don't see why you're taking this as a be all and end all solution as opposed to a small step towards curbing the black money system.

Also, the articles you seem to be posting seem to misrepresent facts and figures. The right analysis would include the % of transactions, in rural India, which involves Rs. 500 and Rs 1000 notes. You'd also have to calculate the bucket size of each transaction to identify if it really brings the country to a halt.

Even if 1% of the population, each hoarding Rs. 1 Cr in unaccounted money, are wiped clean. That's 1% of 1.7 billion = 17 million * 1 cr = Thats (17*10^6) * (10*10^6) = Rs. 170 * 10^12 (170*10^5 crores) wiped out of the system or brought into the system. How is that not a win?

Hindustan Times, a newspaper owned by a Congress RajyaSabha member Shobhana Bhartia, is really getting desperate in spreading negative news about this fantastic initiative. Nothing to see here guys.
@TheManHimself you must feel like a dick right now?
 
BC, do you even read articles or just copy paste that shit? Kuch bhi..just to fight and prove fellow desi wrong.
That's what happens when people with no mind of their own try to get into discussions.
 
It was an idiotic move, most people with black money have got it exchanged or bought gold without any problems, the move has gotten the RBI's credibility in question, over 100 people are dead in relation to this, it has urged more corruption and banks have lost credibility. Favours by bank manager in changing notes of relatives and "friends" have been easily seen. People have not got money, like i said it will effect poor mostly and it has. India is in no way prepared for any digitization, This is just the begining of suffering cause india is not safe from cyber crimes at all. We will see a lot of cases where poor and uneducated will lose money to hackers. Identity theft is already on a high, people are finding money in their account(today a darzi found 81 lakh in his account). Thats just one case, when you will think about it how many people wont even know how much money was deposited and then taken out(just to make money white without using own identity).
Factories in my line of business employing on an average of 1000 people have reduced workforce to 20%. 7th and 25th of every month is pay day here and most factories have lines of workers standing outside to ask for work. People are not getting food.
It was very selfish move by the government. Free publicity to them but it killed the business houses and the employment to many. It killed people literaly, but people are sheep you give them a cause to jump in to the well and they will.
The soldier excuse is my favourite one its like you guilt them into accepting something that is wrong for them. Brilliantly executed but poorly implemented. It was flawed on day 1, it will be flawed on 30 december. Its been worse than i thought it would be. In an intelligent society modi would not recover from this setback, but people are sheep and hell america elected trump so cant really complain. Hope for some intelligence and maybe some "AKal" for modi.
 
BC, do you even read articles or just copy paste that shit? Kuch bhi..just to fight and prove fellow desi wrong.
Whats BC? :lol: Childish behaviour.
You dint write bhenchodh because you are shit scared to get banned. :lol:. I would report you but where is the fun in that?
 
Mister Maradona @Clique post explains it brilliantly in layman terms. You quoting him just proves how disinterested you actually are.
It doesnt take into account the money exchanged, the real estate black money and calls it a win? 100 people dyeing is a win? People without jobs is a win? Well i guess once the educated bhakts have their jobs taken away, they will understand.
 
Gloss it over in anyway possible but this move has been nothing short of a disaster. But I am sure if the Bjp wins the coming elections then it will be taken as a sign of how well the people have accepted the move.
 
Gloss it over in anyway possible but this move has been nothing short of a disaster. But I am sure if the Bjp wins the coming elections then it will be taken as a sign of how well the people have accepted the move.
The sheep will follow, they have been given a cause for "good of the country".
 
It doesnt take into account the money exchanged, the real estate black money and calls it a win? 100 people dyeing is a win? People without jobs is a win? Well i guess once the educated bhakts have their jobs taken away, they will understand.

It is my understanding that Money exchanged would have to be done through the Banking system, which again brings accountability to the system.

It would be a little naive to believe that we don't have leakages and loopholes in the system. But I, for one, am happy that IT raids are happening across the country. Our IT department was seen as sort of a joke in the days past with their hand in glove approach. Right now, they've even gone ahead and searched the house of the sitting Chief Secretary in one of our more economically forward, but corrupt states.

Death of people is a horrible, horrible thing. Trivializing it to one reason and gaining political mileage out of it is disappointing on many levels.

I understand that there is a certain bit of animosity towards the ruling party and that is up to each individual's opinion. I appreciate the move as opposed to appreciating the party behind it.

In my head there was a clear sequence of events that lead to the demonetisation

1. Bank account for everyone
2. Direct Cash Transfer to the PDS
3. Window for converting illegal money with a tax of 45%
4. Demonetisation

Each led to the other and wouldn't have been possible without the step before.

What could have been done better?
1. Increasing the circulation of the Rs.100 notes in the month prior to the move (I understand this was requested by the RBI, however this was not done by the Banks)
2. Found possible areas of leakages and seal them prior as opposed to moving in a reactionary manner

If theoretically implemented, this move should bring down inflation and bank interest rates. This would ideally increase demand in the private sector as well as decreases prices of essential products. Even if part of this is lost to leakages, I don't see how you're seeing only the devil in this picture.
 
In my head there was a clear sequence of events that lead to the demonetisation

1. Bank account for everyone
2. Direct Cash Transfer to the PDS
3. Window for converting illegal money with a tax of 45%
4. Demonetisation
As an Indian, I believe we just stumbled upon the next step rather than plan out these sequences. Why? Even though a lot of people got bank accounts, a lot of them have been dormant. Neither do people don't have any incentive to use them, nor do they feel compelled. Then, coming to Demonetisation, just have a look at number of rules made in the last month or so. The decision was made with the thought Jo hoga, dekha jayega.

Modi asked people to judge him after 50 days. SBI has already announced that they might continue with the withdrawal limits since they don't have enough cash. What does this mean, then?
 
Whats BC? :lol: Childish behaviour.
You dint write bhenchodh because you are shit scared to get banned. :lol:. I would report you but where is the fun in that?
You should have realized that criticism of the dear leader can often result in having to face such responses:D
 
It is my understanding that Money exchanged would have to be done through the Banking system, which again brings accountability to the system.

It would be a little naive to believe that we don't have leakages and loopholes in the system. But I, for one, am happy that IT raids are happening across the country. Our IT department was seen as sort of a joke in the days past with their hand in glove approach. Right now, they've even gone ahead and searched the house of the sitting Chief Secretary in one of our more economically forward, but corrupt states.

Death of people is a horrible, horrible thing. Trivializing it to one reason and gaining political mileage out of it is disappointing on many levels.

I understand that there is a certain bit of animosity towards the ruling party and that is up to each individual's opinion. I appreciate the move as opposed to appreciating the party behind it.

In my head there was a clear sequence of events that lead to the demonetisation

1. Bank account for everyone
2. Direct Cash Transfer to the PDS
3. Window for converting illegal money with a tax of 45%
4. Demonetisation

Each led to the other and wouldn't have been possible without the step before.

What could have been done better?
1. Increasing the circulation of the Rs.100 notes in the month prior to the move (I understand this was requested by the RBI, however this was not done by the Banks)
2. Found possible areas of leakages and seal them prior as opposed to moving in a reactionary manner

If theoretically implemented, this move should bring down inflation and bank interest rates. This would ideally increase demand in the private sector as well as decreases prices of essential products. Even if part of this is lost to leakages, I don't see how you're seeing only the devil in this picture.

First of all thankyou for a reasoned reply.
The way you put it i think it was flawed in the first step.
  • I mean the bank accounts were not given to everyone, to those people it was the biggest hassle as no one was interested in opening bank accounts after Nov8.
  • The window for converting black to white at 45% was a farce.There wasnt enough incentive for people to disclose incomes. Axis bank and i am very sure many others banks later as per news were changing it at 20-30 %. after the 45% scheme finished.
  • The problem was demonitizing 1000 and 500 notes together. A good strategy would have been give 30 days and demonitize only 1000 rs notes and let people exchange it for 500 notes already in circulation and also for new 2000 rs notes. Then say after this was done, check the impact and go for the 500 note while you built up stock of new currency of 2000 and 500
  • The step wise demonitization would have made people fearful and they would have gotten bank accounts, it also would have been easier on bankers, govt themselves and people.
  • That is, if it had to be done. The black money in cash represents absolutely small amount of black money. The same black money that forms a basis of credit trade in the country.
  • The difference between tax avoidance and corruption wasnt seen. It was considered to be one, when tax avoidance happens everywhere and it is many times legal although immoral. Corruption is when sub inspector pays the police to get himself promoted to inspector.
  • So much of black money with politicians and govt officials is in property/gold etc which wont even be touched. If they were serious about solving corruption problems why not make the donations in cheque only? Why not ask parties to declare source of funding?
  • When going after local businessmen, govt forgets they provide more employemnt than govt or the multinational companies. Small firms all over the country provide food in houses of many and yes tax avoidance is wrong even by them, but why go after them when you could first go after big fishes
  • Much of the black money could also be with Income tax officers, who questions them?
  • All this has done is put the countrymen in huge problem, compromised local business and made those people happy who like to watch other people burn. I think people think blaming demonitisation to deaths is wrong? But had those people not been there or took the stress for same, they might be alive
  • There was changing of notes by individuals and business done outside banking, For eg- i have in my books 5 lakh cash in hand but no cash to deposit, you have cash but its black, you offer cash to me and i give you rtgs of 4 lakh. Government knows feck all about it. I mean while iearn a sweet 1 lakh. That is the biggest problem
  • The constant rule changing was in no way planned. People were treated like lab rats, hey lets introduce this stimulus oops some rats died try another stimulant, they seem aggresive try this one. OH Its going to shit, put in the soldier fighting on border stimulant, oh it always works
  • It was a sham all the way through and it was simply looks like a publicity stunt gone bad. Modi for all his good has an ego problem. He thinks he invented something new and is broadcasting it to people so that he can make sure another term for his party is confirmed. I was a supporter of him, maybe i still am but this policy was ridculous and is more of shooting your own self in the foot than anything else.
 
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The below report tells the actual story of Indian agriculture and farmers after demonetisation.

Government says that the demonetisation has not badly impacted the agriculture and that almost 85% of sowing is already done and the rest will be done by the end of December. But this ground level report tells us a different story rejecting the government claims. The report also says that the government made these claims without even starting the survey.

http://scroll.in/article/824778/the...-sowing-but-no-one-knows-who-is-collecting-it

Being someone who has years of strong connection with the agriculture and the farmers across India, i can personally certify this report. I would say that the ground reality is worse than what is described in this report. A lot of farmers are really struggling to buy seeds, fertilizers, etc. and also to pay the wages. As per my experience, almost 90% of the farmers deals with cash. Very few of them are dealing with banking system, and most of them goes to bank only to get loans. But the governments decision not supply new notes to the cooperative banks was a big blow to the farmers as almost all the farmers are dealing with cooperative banks only.
 
PM Narendra Modi Lays Foundation Stone For Rs. 3,600 Crore ($530 million) Shivaji Memorial Statue. 3600 crore for a statue!!!!

I don't know which media agency report is acceptable here. So, i am posting more links.

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ji-memorial-mumbai-shiv-sena-bjp-bmc-4443189/

http://www.news18.com/news/india/pm...hivaji-memorial-uddhav-joins-him-1327171.html

http://www.ndtv.com/mumbai-news/on-...aji-memorial-1641393?pfrom=home-lateststories

I would say that 3600 crore rupee ($530 million) well spend. This is what we need now, this is going to solve the countries financial troubles and lead the nation to glory. Hat's of to Modi, his party and his governance.
 
So on one hand, the PM refuses to give out any information when an RTI was filed for demonetisation, while on the other hand, he declares that he saved the country. Amazing. :lol:
 
Everyone knows that politicians are the most corrupt guys in the country. Even the PM knows that. Had he been so set on removing corruption, why not bring all Political parties under RTI. Make their funding open for all to see.
Right now, a political party can make n number of donations under 20k without disclosing who made the donation and political parties are exempt from IT raids resulting from the move as it is (IIRC Jaitley said so). Also they are tax-free entities. If I was a politician and had 100 Cr of black money in cash, I'd just donate it to my political parties in parts of 20k, at a receipt dated before 9th Nov, withdraw all that cash in new notes and voila, the politicians are still rich.
Or am I missing something over here?
 
India has no opposition party. BJP has won 5 years. It can do whatever it wants. It can keep changing the emphasis from black money to cashless to whatever and they know that there is nothing anyone can do about it.
They can put in their stooges in position of governor, L-G, CBI chiefs, head of universities. It can weaken anti-corruption laws and remove useful organizations as it wants,
As long as zero opposition continues, they need not care about any elections. Be it state or 2019.
 
Everyone knows that politicians are the most corrupt guys in the country. Even the PM knows that. Had he been so set on removing corruption, why not bring all Political parties under RTI. Make their funding open for all to see.
Right now, a political party can make n number of donations under 20k without disclosing who made the donation and political parties are exempt from IT raids resulting from the move as it is (IIRC Jaitley said so). Also they are tax-free entities. If I was a politician and had 100 Cr of black money in cash, I'd just donate it to my political parties in parts of 20k, at a receipt dated before 9th Nov, withdraw all that cash in new notes and voila, the politicians are still rich.
Or am I missing something over here?
And to add to it. Some good % of political parties that are registered do not exist. And most of them keep receiving funds in multiples of 19999.
 
Everyone knows that politicians are the most corrupt guys in the country. Even the PM knows that. Had he been so set on removing corruption, why not bring all Political parties under RTI. Make their funding open for all to see.
Right now, a political party can make n number of donations under 20k without disclosing who made the donation and political parties are exempt from IT raids resulting from the move as it is (IIRC Jaitley said so). Also they are tax-free entities. If I was a politician and had 100 Cr of black money in cash, I'd just donate it to my political parties in parts of 20k, at a receipt dated before 9th Nov, withdraw all that cash in new notes and voila, the politicians are still rich.
Or am I missing something over here?

You can't do a transaction of that magnitude using a political party. Parties aren't exempt from Raids or IT scrutiny. Congress BJP and even AAP routinely used to get notices. Plus the parties have to submit their returns of income and expenditure to the Election Commission. It's very difficult to have scams even using the loophole as once you account for donations received, each rupee expenditure has to be accounted to the ECI. withdrawing from the party fund is next to impossible. Maybe a couple of Lakhs here and there would be possible but not huge sums. Most politicians use educational institutions like medical and engineering colleges.

Plus even if it were possible to scam through the parties, it would still throw off an exception. If caught you would have to show where is the source of donation (assuming you want to claim deduction under section 80).

All in all, parties would think twice before such scams.
 
Everyone knows that politicians are the most corrupt guys in the country. Even the PM knows that. Had he been so set on removing corruption, why not bring all Political parties under RTI. Make their funding open for all to see.
Right now, a political party can make n number of donations under 20k without disclosing who made the donation and political parties are exempt from IT raids resulting from the move as it is (IIRC Jaitley said so). Also they are tax-free entities. If I was a politician and had 100 Cr of black money in cash, I'd just donate it to my political parties in parts of 20k, at a receipt dated before 9th Nov, withdraw all that cash in new notes and voila, the politicians are still rich.
Or am I missing something over here?

Who gives a feck about politicians man? The reason for his move was to bring in a much needed cash influx for the public sector banks and the govt. with the rate at which our cost of living has been increasing, the govt simply cannot afford to foot the bill without having the money to pay for it. More accountability in terms of money deposited is good for everyone.
 
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The reason for his move was to bring in a much needed cash influx for the public sector banks and the govt. with the rate at which our cost of living has been increasing, the govt simply cannot afford to foot the bill without having the money to pay for it. More accountability in terms of money deposited is good for everyone.
Have the goal posts shifted again? :lol:
 
Who gives a feck about politicians man? The reason for his move was to bring in a much needed cash influx for the public sector banks and the govt. with the rate at which our cost of living has been increasing, the govt simply cannot afford to foot the bill without having the money to pay for it. More accountability in terms of money deposited is good for everyone.

 :lol:
 
Who gives a feck about politicians man? The reason for his move was to bring in a much needed cash influx for the public sector banks and the govt. with the rate at which our cost of living has been increasing, the govt simply cannot afford to foot the bill without having the money to pay for it. More accountability in terms of money deposited is good for everyone.

Kuch bhi!!?? :lol::lol::lol:

Have the goal posts shifted again? :lol:

:lol::lol::lol:
 
Who gives a feck about politicians man? The reason for his move was to bring in a much needed cash influx for the public sector banks and the govt. with the rate at which our cost of living has been increasing, the govt simply cannot afford to foot the bill without having the money to pay for it. More accountability in terms of money deposited is good for everyone.
True. It is perfectly normal to burn a house to kill a few rats in kitchen.
 
You can't do a transaction of that magnitude using a political party. Parties aren't exempt from Raids or IT scrutiny. Congress BJP and even AAP routinely used to get notices. Plus the parties have to submit their returns of income and expenditure to the Election Commission. It's very difficult to have scams even using the loophole as once you account for donations received, each rupee expenditure has to be accounted to the ECI. withdrawing from the party fund is next to impossible. Maybe a couple of Lakhs here and there would be possible but not huge sums. Most politicians use educational institutions like medical and engineering colleges.

Plus even if it were possible to scam through the parties, it would still throw off an exception. If caught you would have to show where is the source of donation (assuming you want to claim deduction under section 80).

All in all, parties would think twice before such scams.

If Income Tax Department sends notices, does that mean that political parties are not tax free entities? Gifts under a certain amount are exempt from tax, I'm not sure what the exact amount is though. Is it 20k as was mentioned earlier? Then parties would use the "donations" loophole. But yeah, most rich politicians use colleges for their money laundering and black money purposes. This is the main reason for new medical colleges opening up in random places all the time. Hospitals and medical colleges are great places to hide/launder hundreds of crores of rupees.

Big organisations and companies, especially those in real estate development, show on their tax forms that they suffered depreciation in assets or suffered loss. This gives them tax credit for that same amount. This is how the Trump Organisation did not pay tax for the past 22 years or so. He said that he had suffered a $900 million dollar loss in one year. That was in the US though. Not sure if people can file for devaluation/depreciation/loss on their tax returns in India.
 
Who gives a feck about politicians man? The reason for his move was to bring in a much needed cash influx for the public sector banks and the govt. with the rate at which our cost of living has been increasing, the govt simply cannot afford to foot the bill without having the money to pay for it. More accountability in terms of money deposited is good for everyone.

:lol: That is gold.
 
Who gives a feck about politicians man? The reason for his move was to bring in a much needed cash influx for the public sector banks and the govt. with the rate at which our cost of living has been increasing, the govt simply cannot afford to foot the bill without having the money to pay for it. More accountability in terms of money deposited is good for everyone.
:wenger::wenger::lol::lol::lol:
 
News saying this now-
  • Cash withdrawl limit will NOT be increased!
  • Fake Notes of 2000 in market.
 
News saying this now-
  • Cash withdrawl limit will NOT be increased!
  • Fake Notes of 2000 in market.
Nothing new or surprising in this. Banks have been in short of cash for ages with some branches having No Cash boards put in front for ages. Even the ones that were giving money couple of days a week, were giving max 4K.

RBI had already clarified that they did not have enough time to introduce anything big in terms of security in the new 2000 Rs notes. They had some security features different from old notes that's all.