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India politics thread
- Thread starter Shiva87
- Start date
Guess this would lead to improved tourism and development in Zanskaar valley(Western Ladakh). New Darcha-Padum road over Shinku La pass is almost complete.
Pathetic.
I don't understand the underrating of the Indian military here. Fighting on this terrain is practically our bread and butter, we literally train western forces to operate in such terrains. It's literally one of the most battle hardened armies in the world. Rest assured, if the skirmish sticks to Ladakh, it will be a devastating clash for both sides. If the theatre increases, then things will go bad for us. But limited to Ladakh, you'll see a different story.
Agreed.
Seems like govt doesn't have the balls as they tried to hide the fact that incursions happened in first place. And now the weak response to the killing of soldiers.
It's been over a month since the standoff began and we still haven't got our act together. Massive intelligence failure considering Chinese are still making fresh intrusions in strategic areas.
Heads should roll.
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Wiped out? It seems you have no idea what you are talking about. You see bunch of numbers and come to conclusions. In Himalayan range, Chinese army is not going to easily outmatch Indian army without suffering heavy casualties. ( edited this line)This isn't 1962. We have built our army to specifically defend the northern range. Chinese army carried out an exercise to mobilize it's army in Himalayan ranges and failed misrably.
Gadgets don't win you war. Experience in battle counts in these areas. It's airforce has not faced a single war and Chinese airforce is not battle tested in Himalayan range. It will be even match on airfront despite the parity in number as most of the Chinese airforce is not directed towards India and we know how bad they are in mobilizing their forces. As far Navy is concerned, China has advantage but India knows how to patrol Indian Ocean and there is no way China comes in Indian Ocean with its Navy considering almost all of South East Asia and Australia is hostile towards it. Our Army is actually better than theirs ( in Himalayan range battle not overall as they are well armed but it won't make that much difference if they are focused towards mainland). Only thing I am worried about is their Navy but I don't think that will matter in this short conflict.
Firepower doesn't win you wars. That assuming you think India doesn't have one. I guess people should have realised this after Vietnam and Korean wars.
No country is going to use missiles on each other but if China uses one, India has its own nuclear triad. Rest assure we can hit almost every part of China with absolute precision.
War is not going to help Chinese or India. But if it happened ( short one), India won't be wiped out and actually will go toe to toe with the Chinese.
Mostly this will last till Covid 19 or till Winter sets in. We will come to compromise and both side will disengage. It has already seen worst I would like to imagine.
Edit : Also forgot to mention that most of Chinese Airforce is directed towards east coast and our complete airforce is directed towards northern range. Plus US has moved 3 aircraft carrier in Indo Pacific region already so Chinese can't leave South China Sea undefended. Plus India dominates Indian Ocean region completely.
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Indian media should use this OTT propaganda to counter Chinese propaganda machine Global Times.
It's not propaganda. We have enough experience to match them in northern range. I am not saying they aren't good enough, infact their Defence is formidable defence and probably 3rd best in the world. Their Navy is probably the only one which can actually stand up to US Navy. But in high mountain passes, their experience is limited. I didn't boast that we are better than them. Only in terms of army we actually have an advantage in those areas.
Also I was replying to post where the poster mentioned that we will be wiped out. Context also matters. So elaborated and pointed out few points. Also your reply reminded me why I had kept this thread on ignore. Also edited the original post where one line may have came out wrong.
I am under no illusion that we will not suffer heavy casualty. Possibly more than the Chinese. But we can match them on this front and won't be wiped out. If that's propoganda then I am fine with it.
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Yeah like I stated above. People forget that we have been fighting on ridges and cliffs like that for years. We have plenty firepower of our own. There might be defeat, but if hit, we'll go toe to toe. This isn't war mongering, but the fact is that China has been flexing its muscles and trying to expand territory. It is what it is.
So many defence experts on the caf. We aren't on China's level economically or militarily, but you have to do what you can, whether be though a well organised response/defence or more importantly trying to put pressure using international diplomacy or though reconciliation. The response so far has seemed flat and sluggish.
Isn't it obvious?
I'm assuming you're from the western world like myself. I'm English but have seen this border conflict trending on Twitter. The below vid is quite informative from a Indian gentleman who is a independent analyst and if he's correct then China don't even need to fire a shot due to their cyber capabilities which he says would cripple India. I thought I'd share for anyone that's interested especially people like myself who want to learn more about the conflict.
This is actually true to a certain extent but he is over exaggerating their offensive capabilities. Chinese cyber warfare is well advanced than anything India has. India has started developing capabilities but it is mostly to protect its defence installation and financial institutions. Chinese cyber attacks were all time high during Doklam crisis.
Few articles that you can reference in that regard
https://thediplomat.com/2019/07/indias-response-to-chinas-cyber-attacks/
https://theprint.in/opinion/indian-...e-is-nowhere-as-evolved-as-chinas-pla/266292/
Plus there are reports of massive Denial of service attack already happening today. We need to realise that just defending cyber attacks is not enough. We need to have offensive capabilities in this regard as well. We are nowhere even close to develop that at this moment.
Thanks for the links. I'm trying to understand the issues better.
Sorry friend I really misunderstand your post,
I though you are talking about me. That why I ask.
Hiding the incursions in the first place seems to have actually emboldened the Chinese. They immediately saw that the Indian government is a weak one and they could comfortably carry out their next plan of action, as we saw 2 days ago.
Thank you! Very interesting. Yes I don't think it's a good idea for anyone if this goes any further as it will only end badly.
I can't see China wanting to destroy India anyway as most superpowers are mindful of other superpowers and they won't want to over step the mark too much. As we have seen in the past with Russia.
Let's hope it settles down quickly.
They're all bunch of incompetent fools.
Here's the priority of our external affairs minister right now, he is more concerned about proving Rahul Gandhi and HS Panag wrong.
And got owned.
And this report pokes further hole into Jaishankar's claim that we were armed.
Everyone is genius in hindsight. If Army had fired and there was a casualty of much higher number, same people would have been crying about breaking the protocol. China hasn't released the number of casualty and it's quite clear Indians didn't expect iron rods with spike. I mean who would imagine Army of any country would stoop so low.
Imagine Army following protocol! They should learn from brave journalist what to do.
Imagine Army following protocol! They should learn from brave journalist what to do.
No they should listen to Twitter warriors and the great journalists.
Altering Galwan river downstream. Are they trying to remove water source near LAC so that we cant build our bases nearby?
Biggest non-military aggression: impact water sources. China already started/planning to dam all the rivers going from the Tibetan plateau and south. Mekong, Indus, Brahmaputra etc...
No didn't you know, everyone is expert in diplomacy and warfare. They know better diplomacy than Jaishankar who has been doing this all his life. They know better than Army generals in tactical warfare. People are crying that they aren't getting blow by blow information of the situation. Usual suspects forget how we lost 640 sq km of land to Chinese under UPA and we didn't have any idea about untill former chair man of defence agency comes out and mention it. No wonder Chinese think we are weak
Global Times failing with propaganda tweets while highlighting Chinese product quality. Hopefully no one is killed because of this tweet
I am not picky, but left headlight needs to be replaced
I am not picky, but left headlight needs to be replaced
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That's a far fetched thought. Not many armchair critics knew about the 1996 agreements, until our soldiers died.
And are you saying our army was not carrying arms (believing Chinese army will not act like barbarians) or are you saying a CO and jawans under him all had arms, but chose to die for the 1996 agreements, rather than engage the Chinese?
Anyways, the govt has its task cut out.
India is in a tricky situation now. It can't fight a fullscale war with China, the Chinese are much better equipped militarily and would win. Also there is a high chance of Pakistan turning it into a two front war if it broke into a large scale conflict between the two nations. It suits Pakistan as the Pakistani objective is Kashmir and if the Indian military is stretched and has to fight on two fronts, it would be easier to fight the war in Kashmir, as Indian defence resources would be spread thin.
At the same time India can't not react as that will only encourage the Chinese and will burn through political goodwill at home. The opposition will make a meal of it and undermine Modi at every opportunity. It's a political disaster.
There is a brightside though. The Chinese will only push so far - they don't want to trigger a full scale war. The economic and military cost of a full scale war against India is massive. They might win eventually but do they want to foot the bill for such a victory? And to gain what? Any territory they gain will have a population hostile to them and ethnically different to them. India has to stand up for itself, but at the same time not back the Chinese into escalating for the sake of saving face.
Both sides want out of the situation they've got themselves into.
At the same time India can't not react as that will only encourage the Chinese and will burn through political goodwill at home. The opposition will make a meal of it and undermine Modi at every opportunity. It's a political disaster.
There is a brightside though. The Chinese will only push so far - they don't want to trigger a full scale war. The economic and military cost of a full scale war against India is massive. They might win eventually but do they want to foot the bill for such a victory? And to gain what? Any territory they gain will have a population hostile to them and ethnically different to them. India has to stand up for itself, but at the same time not back the Chinese into escalating for the sake of saving face.
Both sides want out of the situation they've got themselves into.
As is usually typical with any self proclaimed nationalist governments.
How do people keep electing buffoons like this one?
Bjp linked Mobs will now attack restaurants hurting businesses of indian nationals.
That's teach Chinese a lesson!
I fear for the safety of north east folks in various cities
Perhaps that's a good thing, given recent worries about over tourism ruining the area?
I went to the region in 2010, a few months after the avalanches. Remans one of the most amazing trips of my life, and I doubt much can ever beat it.
There's no opposition.
i made a bad joke about Indian Chinese food a literally a few posts ago, and like clockwork, a doucebag BJP politician proves me right.
Chinese intrusions and India's limited options
In October last year a senior Indian security official on a visit to Ladakh met the General Officer Commanding (GOC) of the Indian Army’s 14 Corps. The Corps was raised in the aftermath of the Kargil war between India and Pakistan in 1999 and has its headquarters in Leh. Today, 14 Corps under the India’s Northern Army Command is primarily tasked with maintaining the sanctity of the Line of Actual Control that divides Aksai Chin between India and China. Aksai Chin went under Chinese occupation after 1962 war that dealt India a crushing blow and forced it to vacate large tracts of land and allowing the Chinese to hook up with its all-weather ally Pakistan through the illegally ceded territory of Shaksgam Valley in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (PoK).
The Indian security official gave a detailed briefing to the Lieutenant General Harinder Singh, a former Director General of Military Intelligence, who took over as the GOC of 14 Corps late last year. The Indian security official explained that the change of the status of Jammu & Kashmir had irked the Chinese. In the coming months they would up the ante and try and capture more land and shift the LAC deeper into Indian-held territory.
Several Indian security officials have confirmed that there was adequate credible intelligence of China’s intentions to up the ante in the Ladakh sector. The heights of the Galwan Valley overlooks a key road that winds its way to Daulet Beg Oldie, a strategic outpost that serves as a key military base for India.
By November/December 2019 the world was waking up to news of a spread of a deadly virus in Wuhan, China and all talk about the Chinese preparation to take over the Galwan Valley in Ladakh was forgotten. As winter set in, Indian troops settled in for business as usual.
But the events that unfolded on the night of June 15 raises several key questions.
Why did India’s top political, strategic and military leadership fail to anticipate and counter Chinese intentions to challenge and occupy Indian claims in Ladakh? How should India now counter a clear and present danger on its northern borders? Did the newly-appointed Chief of Defence Staff, General Bipin Rawat, mislead the government? How did the plethora of official agencies set up to study China fail to predict a clear change in its India policy?
The brutal killing of Colonel Santosh Babu, the Commanding Officer of the 18th battalion of the Bihar Regiment and his men by the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) has now brought home the reality of Chinese intentions in Ladakh. Reliable military and intelligence sources now say that the death toll of Indian soldiers is considerably higher and could be more than 40 soldiers. A Lieutenant Colonel and a Major are still missing and could be in Chinese captivity.
What is inexplicable is why Colonel Babu and his men went unarmed to remove a temporary Chinese structure that was being set up in a place known as Patrolling Point 14. The standard procedure is to carry assault rifles slung at the back, pointing downwards, to signal peaceful intent, but to also serve as a deterrent to Chinese troops from taking any sudden hostile moves. Why was Colonel Babu and his men sent in unarmed to remove the Chinese infrastructure?
The Chinese plans that the Indian security official had briefed Lieutenant General Harinder Singh late last year continued to be implemented even as the world turned its attention to an emerging pandemic threat from China. The Chinese build up was confirmed by other Indian intelligence agencies and reports were sent to Delhi. However, they were either missed or ignored allowing the Chinese to build up in the Galwan Valley through the winter.
The Chinese were upset with India’s position on rejecting its ambitious Belt Road Initiative (BRI) to connect global markets to China’s manufacturing industries. It led to a major stand-off between India and China in 2016 at the tri-junction with Bhutan, in the area known as Doklam.
In August last year when India abrogated Article 370, a constitutional provision that gave a special status to the state of Jammu and Kashmir, China responded with fury. The Chinese claim large parts of Ladakh, eastern part of the erstwhile state of Jammu and Kashmir, and any change in status was bound to be viewed as a threat to China’s claims.
What is inexplicable is why did India fail to read tea leaves and China’s intentions to change status quo?
The rising political rhetoric in the aftermath of the “surgical strikes” in 2016 to “avenge” the killing of 19 soldiers in Uri and the air strike on Balakot, Pakistan in February 2019, as a response to the death of 40 Indian policemen in Pulwama, has pushed India into a tight corner. While political rhetoric is good for winning elections, it is not smart strategy.
Soon after the Kargil war, the then Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee government instituted a committee to look into lapses and reform India’s security apparatus. A Group of Ministers went through the recommendations of the Kargil Review Committee and set in motion an ambitious plan to reform India’s security apparatus. A key recommendation was to appoint a lead agency for every border to ensure better coordination between different security agencies and accountability. For the Ladkah sector the Indo Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) was chosen as the lead agency. It reports to the union Ministry of Home Affairs, which also commands the Intelligence Bureau and was the lead on abrogating Article 370 within months of Prime Minister Modi wining a historic landslide electoral victory in May 2019.
A 700 km border and Line of Actual Control that stretches from the Karakorum ranges to Himachal Pradesh is now manned jointly by the ITBP and the Indian Army. The local ITBP sector headquarters holds a meeting every month with representatives from the intelligence agencies, army, air force, customs and the state police to review any intelligence on China relevant to their sector.
So why did this elaborate Indian security apparatus miss China moving troops nearly two army Divisions (about 9000-12000 men) into the area to occupy the Galwan Valley heights?
Why did they miss China building a road up to a key strategic feature known as Finger 4 considered Indian territory? And how did they miss Chinese troops building semi-permanent bunkers in the Galwan Valley heights?
https://www.deccanchronicle.com/opi...se-intrusions-and-indias-limited-options.html
The ITBP and IB chiefs directly report to amit shah, they are not part of the army. So amit shah and modi must have had prior reports of chinese buildup but choose to ignore it. Or maybe shah was busy in planning the delhi riots. However, i already see that the media is starting to blame the army. What a bunch of scummy twats.
In October last year a senior Indian security official on a visit to Ladakh met the General Officer Commanding (GOC) of the Indian Army’s 14 Corps. The Corps was raised in the aftermath of the Kargil war between India and Pakistan in 1999 and has its headquarters in Leh. Today, 14 Corps under the India’s Northern Army Command is primarily tasked with maintaining the sanctity of the Line of Actual Control that divides Aksai Chin between India and China. Aksai Chin went under Chinese occupation after 1962 war that dealt India a crushing blow and forced it to vacate large tracts of land and allowing the Chinese to hook up with its all-weather ally Pakistan through the illegally ceded territory of Shaksgam Valley in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (PoK).
The Indian security official gave a detailed briefing to the Lieutenant General Harinder Singh, a former Director General of Military Intelligence, who took over as the GOC of 14 Corps late last year. The Indian security official explained that the change of the status of Jammu & Kashmir had irked the Chinese. In the coming months they would up the ante and try and capture more land and shift the LAC deeper into Indian-held territory.
Several Indian security officials have confirmed that there was adequate credible intelligence of China’s intentions to up the ante in the Ladakh sector. The heights of the Galwan Valley overlooks a key road that winds its way to Daulet Beg Oldie, a strategic outpost that serves as a key military base for India.
By November/December 2019 the world was waking up to news of a spread of a deadly virus in Wuhan, China and all talk about the Chinese preparation to take over the Galwan Valley in Ladakh was forgotten. As winter set in, Indian troops settled in for business as usual.
But the events that unfolded on the night of June 15 raises several key questions.
Why did India’s top political, strategic and military leadership fail to anticipate and counter Chinese intentions to challenge and occupy Indian claims in Ladakh? How should India now counter a clear and present danger on its northern borders? Did the newly-appointed Chief of Defence Staff, General Bipin Rawat, mislead the government? How did the plethora of official agencies set up to study China fail to predict a clear change in its India policy?
The brutal killing of Colonel Santosh Babu, the Commanding Officer of the 18th battalion of the Bihar Regiment and his men by the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) has now brought home the reality of Chinese intentions in Ladakh. Reliable military and intelligence sources now say that the death toll of Indian soldiers is considerably higher and could be more than 40 soldiers. A Lieutenant Colonel and a Major are still missing and could be in Chinese captivity.
What is inexplicable is why Colonel Babu and his men went unarmed to remove a temporary Chinese structure that was being set up in a place known as Patrolling Point 14. The standard procedure is to carry assault rifles slung at the back, pointing downwards, to signal peaceful intent, but to also serve as a deterrent to Chinese troops from taking any sudden hostile moves. Why was Colonel Babu and his men sent in unarmed to remove the Chinese infrastructure?
The Chinese plans that the Indian security official had briefed Lieutenant General Harinder Singh late last year continued to be implemented even as the world turned its attention to an emerging pandemic threat from China. The Chinese build up was confirmed by other Indian intelligence agencies and reports were sent to Delhi. However, they were either missed or ignored allowing the Chinese to build up in the Galwan Valley through the winter.
The Chinese were upset with India’s position on rejecting its ambitious Belt Road Initiative (BRI) to connect global markets to China’s manufacturing industries. It led to a major stand-off between India and China in 2016 at the tri-junction with Bhutan, in the area known as Doklam.
In August last year when India abrogated Article 370, a constitutional provision that gave a special status to the state of Jammu and Kashmir, China responded with fury. The Chinese claim large parts of Ladakh, eastern part of the erstwhile state of Jammu and Kashmir, and any change in status was bound to be viewed as a threat to China’s claims.
What is inexplicable is why did India fail to read tea leaves and China’s intentions to change status quo?
The rising political rhetoric in the aftermath of the “surgical strikes” in 2016 to “avenge” the killing of 19 soldiers in Uri and the air strike on Balakot, Pakistan in February 2019, as a response to the death of 40 Indian policemen in Pulwama, has pushed India into a tight corner. While political rhetoric is good for winning elections, it is not smart strategy.
Soon after the Kargil war, the then Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee government instituted a committee to look into lapses and reform India’s security apparatus. A Group of Ministers went through the recommendations of the Kargil Review Committee and set in motion an ambitious plan to reform India’s security apparatus. A key recommendation was to appoint a lead agency for every border to ensure better coordination between different security agencies and accountability. For the Ladkah sector the Indo Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) was chosen as the lead agency. It reports to the union Ministry of Home Affairs, which also commands the Intelligence Bureau and was the lead on abrogating Article 370 within months of Prime Minister Modi wining a historic landslide electoral victory in May 2019.
A 700 km border and Line of Actual Control that stretches from the Karakorum ranges to Himachal Pradesh is now manned jointly by the ITBP and the Indian Army. The local ITBP sector headquarters holds a meeting every month with representatives from the intelligence agencies, army, air force, customs and the state police to review any intelligence on China relevant to their sector.
So why did this elaborate Indian security apparatus miss China moving troops nearly two army Divisions (about 9000-12000 men) into the area to occupy the Galwan Valley heights?
Why did they miss China building a road up to a key strategic feature known as Finger 4 considered Indian territory? And how did they miss Chinese troops building semi-permanent bunkers in the Galwan Valley heights?
https://www.deccanchronicle.com/opi...se-intrusions-and-indias-limited-options.html
The ITBP and IB chiefs directly report to amit shah, they are not part of the army. So amit shah and modi must have had prior reports of chinese buildup but choose to ignore it. Or maybe shah was busy in planning the delhi riots. However, i already see that the media is starting to blame the army. What a bunch of scummy twats.
Goebbels Shah is a busy man tbf. He's got his hands full in quelling dissenting voices, buying MLAs etc. And what's the point in protecting some barren square kilometres of land anyway? Even if the Chinese camp up and build stuff, our maps still show all that land as ours
I agree that army leadership is blameless. Rawat especially is an acolyte, just following orders.