I was just enjoying this thread until I got to this page 
Bring back rory I say.
Bring back rory I say.
(I'm actually not) Blaming Moyes for transfers
- Thread starter Brwned
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
There's a difference between recognising players with top class ability and recognising the type we need at this particular club. I remember Andy Mitten saying our scouts had watched Isco but didn't think he met the requirements they were looking for. To me this seems stupid as Isco looks like quality but the fact is our scouting system judges players to very specific standards. Moyes might be aware of a lot of top quality players but he's still working off our scouting system which, apparently, is ridiculously thorough.
Ok but that doesn't mean it's completely limited to the league and there are numerous examples of players through the spine of the team who aren't from the league such as Vidic, Stam, RVN etc, the middle I agree not so much and they have tended to either be below the required quality or not lived up to their potential but that can also be perhaps attributed to the scouting. Plus would say if Kagawa ends up in his normal position he will be in an absolute core position for the team. We've also signed a number of young midfielders for the reserves in recent years for the middle. But in terms of identifying a player who maybe needs some refining but none the less is able to play a part, like Ando was when he first came, to me doesn't necessarily have to be such a risk. Ando hasn't fulfilled his potential but that's not due to his lack of adapting to the league or anything but injuries and his own approach to fitness.
So whilst I agree that in general we've gone for PL based I think we've shown in most areas we've been happy to go for someone else outside that position. But also furthermore, in an age where we seem to set quite tight valuations on players as demonstrated by not signing the likes of Lucas, Hazard Nasri and our valuation on Fabregas, trying to look for a midfielder purely from within the PL doesn't make sense seeing as we know that the PL charges a massive premium. Added to that in general I think a lot of people would say that in general the quality of central midfielders from within the league has fallen. So for me it wouldn't make sense to narrow our focus to the PL, I agree its served us well in the past and preferably we could buy from within but given there are so few players I find it odd we've not been looking abroad and if we have, that we haven't apparently identified anyone.
No he isn't, he brought Robbie Cooke from Everton to take over the job of chief scout, add to that the fact he's targeting players who he's managed at Everton, while apparently ignoring the likes of Thiago, because he didn't think it would be the type of signing. I think it's pretty clear he's making all the decisions about who he wants.
WTF? they were realistic targets for Everton, so they have the quality that reigning premier league champions Manchester United need
Which is why we have huge debates here whether Fellaini, Everton's most expensive signing ever, is good enough for us...
Us and Everton are shopping at totally different levels. Fellaini is their most expensive player. We've paid a fee similar or higher to that six times in the last two years.
Except there's more to signing a player than watching him on TV. And I'm not even talking about Moyes's way of selecting players.
Of course he's making the decisions, that doesn't mean he's ignoring the scouting systems we have in place. Do you seriously think he has come in and not listened to the scouts that have spent years trying to find players specifically for our team? He's taking on board all the information presented to him and making the final decision who we'll target of that basis, in the same way SAF did.
My point is, surely we did not have to wait until the window was open to discover these players are not interested in playing for us?
I would have thought interest from the player and potential openness to sell would be guaged well in advance of the window, or at the very least in advance of submitting an official bid.
My take is there isn't that kind of big money available for transfers. Its just show casing and creating a hype. Remember Ed Woodward - cutting short his trip for urgent transfer business! Who have we signed so far ?
And there is also the other theory where United has been extremely prudent in their signings the past couple of years......
Money talks and bullshit walks.
And there is also the other theory where United has been extremely prudent in their signings the past couple of years......
Money talks and bullshit walks.
I don't know what you've been taking edn but if your cash is chatting to you and there's cow shit strolling past your window it's time to stop taking it.
As much as we've perhaps been a little too public at times, whether through our own fault or elsewhere.. at least he has publically addressed it as an issue.
You could say that it makes him look weaker then if we don't get anybody, but most teams identify areas and are open about them. I'm glad to know that he sees it as an area to work on, and even if we bought nobody there are other ways to sure up the midfield (extra bodies, more narrow tactics etc.).
It's not his fault he came into a team lacking a top midfield, and it doesn't sound like he's done much but identify targets at short notice. We can all appreciate his choice of Fabregas, even if the club didn't handle the 'hunt' in such a manner as we've grown accustomed to in recent years.
You could say that it makes him look weaker then if we don't get anybody, but most teams identify areas and are open about them. I'm glad to know that he sees it as an area to work on, and even if we bought nobody there are other ways to sure up the midfield (extra bodies, more narrow tactics etc.).
It's not his fault he came into a team lacking a top midfield, and it doesn't sound like he's done much but identify targets at short notice. We can all appreciate his choice of Fabregas, even if the club didn't handle the 'hunt' in such a manner as we've grown accustomed to in recent years.
In response to the OP, very few sane minded people have blamed Moyes.
The club hasn't done well in the transfer market this summer though.
People can't be branded transfer muppets for being annoyed and disappointed at not landing a quality CM. It's what we're crying out for.
The club hasn't done well in the transfer market this summer though.
People can't be branded transfer muppets for being annoyed and disappointed at not landing a quality CM. It's what we're crying out for.
I only wonder about one thing. Is there no advantage one gains from signing a player a week or two before the season starts? Seems like our signings will drag right till the end of the window. I do understand that in certain cases(complicated ones), things can get dragged. But players like Fellaini and Baines. Why are we not keen on wrapping things up ASAP?
Especially this season, if we would have gotten those two a week before the chelsea and pool games, we might have had them available for those games, there certainly has to be some value in that, right?
Is it possible that we might save on the signing fee by taking it right to the end?
Especially this season, if we would have gotten those two a week before the chelsea and pool games, we might have had them available for those games, there certainly has to be some value in that, right?
Is it possible that we might save on the signing fee by taking it right to the end?
The idea that Fergie would hand over a list of players for Moyes to choose from is one of the most ridiculous and laughable things I've heard in a while. That was some stroke of luck for Moyes when he looked at the list and found Fabregas, Fellaini and Baines as the top three targets, and that was some rigorous work from Fergie's scouts.
In the midst of the bickering, I believe this post was missed.
'Moyes' with 'choice'? Really?
You have to say it all foreign and that. Trust me, it's pretty close to genius.
My ears might lack the sufficient sophistication but I sure as hell can't see what's wrong with Moyes rhyming with choice. Unless you speak some hideously awful dialect that nobody understands outside of a ten mile radius.
It doesn't work, Brophs made a balls of it.
Let's just leave it at that.
Let's just leave it at that.
I was just enjoying this thread until I got to this page
Bring back rory I say.
I'm happy to be the main Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime again if you like
Let me guess. A load of folks are 'confused' and are 'blaming' Moyes for not signing players.
And would I be right in guessing some other folks are arguing that its impossible to find the right person to 'blame'?
I really don't know what else to add to this thread so I guess I'm best advised to leave it.
It is an interesting topic - in one sense - but I think its been completely lost -blame me or (insert someone else) if you like.
Our bids have been laughably below market value.
Woodward is obviously not keen to part with all those various noodle/crisps/credit card sponsorship he has arranged.
£26m/31m for Fabregas is the funniest.
Woodward is obviously not keen to part with all those various noodle/crisps/credit card sponsorship he has arranged.
£26m/31m for Fabregas is the funniest.
Five pages later it's all essentially boiled down to one question.
Does Moyes rhyme with choice?
Does Moyes rhyme with choice?
I am sure that it was SAF's dream to bring Felliani and Baines to the club. Considering SAF's generals in CM (Keane, Scholes, Veron, Carrick and Robson), Felliani fits exactly the type of midfielder SAF always wanted into the club.
think it was SAf's dream to carry on using Giggs until he dropped dead on the pitch, and even then I wouldn't have ruled out a return once resuscitation had prevailed. If SAf had any dreams of bringing top midfielders to the club, he certainly didn't try to live those dreams in the past 5 years!
Nope, the only reason Moyes will take the brunt of fans blame for perceived failure, is that he is not SAF.
I agree with almost everything in your post Brwned, except the completely unfounded speculation that SAF had any intention to target any midfielders this summer. If SAF had wanted Thiago then surely after Pep left was the perfect time to go for him. Nor do I believe he would have bid for Fabregas either. I cannot recall the last time he actually made a bid on a top midfielder, so to bid for one who has relatively recently returned to his hometown club after a long spell in England, just doesn't seem very Fergie like to me. It seemed to smack more of moyes trying to make a real statement of intent, and get the fans straight on his side. Unfortunately for all concerned with Utd, it didn't come off.
Other than that though I think you have it absolutely spot on.
Moyes' job is to identify the players he feels will contribute to our team, whether we agree with his choice of players or not (Baines for example), it's his team now and he could do what he likes. Whether we land those players has nothing to do with Moyes and therefore he shouldn't shoulder any blame for whether we land players or not. He should be be held accountable if he makes bad decisions on players, like how Sir Alex gets stick for buying Bebe.
The blame should go squarely on The Equalizer. His job is to go out and secure the players that the manager wants to bring in and if he fails to do that he hasn't done a good job. To United fans Peter Kenyon will forever be remembered as the moron who cost us Ronaldinho because of his stupid tactics. The Equalizer's tactics of going on the offensive and making bids that no club will possibly accept isn't good business. If we pay a single cent over what Fellaini's release clause was if we sign Fellaini, then the man should lose his job.
The blame should go squarely on The Equalizer. His job is to go out and secure the players that the manager wants to bring in and if he fails to do that he hasn't done a good job. To United fans Peter Kenyon will forever be remembered as the moron who cost us Ronaldinho because of his stupid tactics. The Equalizer's tactics of going on the offensive and making bids that no club will possibly accept isn't good business. If we pay a single cent over what Fellaini's release clause was if we sign Fellaini, then the man should lose his job.
So what your saying is I shouldn't have bothered me arse replying to the OP. Fair enough. I'll stick to my normal bi-monthly posts from now on so.
This, I agree with.
1) Bidding 25-30m for Fabregas was idiocy with no way of success, esp as he was not "unhappy" with being there.
2) The inital 12m offer for Baines was rejected, only for us to go back with the same offer again (this time alongwith Fellaini)
3) Our offer for Fellaini for 16m just because his release clause for 24m expired on July still is ridiculous.
I can understand the value of starting low and increasing the offers, but this boders on a farce. The whole transfer business has been very shabby, irrespective of who it is to be blamed.
I can confirm choice rhymes with Moyes here in Dublin.
You must be posting from Mount-choy if you think that rhymes.
We're all gonna end up in Mount Moyes I think.
Is there something in players not finding United an attractive proposition with Moyes in charge? Not on a WU, just trying to see it from the players point of view.
Nope. We lost out on players with SAF in charge, Nasri, Hazard, Lucas all chosing the oil clubs over us in the last two seasons.
Don't understand this view at all.
I agree that Fergie made it an even more attractive proposition but it's mainly the size and success of the club responsible for attracting players and that hasn't changed.
And the depth of the pockets, which is increasing.