Brilliant. I step away for half an hour and thread has really taken off!! Lol.
You. Out.
Brilliant. I step away for half an hour and thread has really taken off!! Lol.
I can't remember the last time I saw an argument stretch 4 pages... all the whilst everyone is seemingly, pretty much in agreement with each other....
The only part of me itching is my brain after reading Rory's posts in this thread.
It's embarrassing......... the way so many fans built themselves up to thinking we were going to go against what we've always done, and go out and spend about £150million on 4 world class players and when it doesn't happen they criticise the club and manager.
Obviously we need reinforcements, but its not a game of Fifa or FM.... spending 20,30,40 million and negotiating a contract, probably worth almost as much, with players, isn't straight forwards.
It amazes me the way some people think its just a matter of picking up the phone and offering 40m for someone like Fabregas, and thats it - done deal.
The whole topic and focus on transfers has become a sideshow, mainly designed to flog papers and advertising, and keep the soap opera thats sprung up around football moving. Unfortunately plenty of fans seem to enjoy it as much, if not more than the actual football. And thats before we get into the whole armchair manager phenomenon - lads sat at home, studying stats, who think they know something paid professionals dont.
Is our struggle this summer not like our struggle in other summers though?
The only difference I can see was the public pursuit of Fabregas.
The thing is we desperately need a midfielder, possibly two. Seems like Moyes accepts that, but from everything we gather there has been a very, very short list of possibilities. I'm sure there's more than two or three midfield players who can improve us, but it appears our net hasn't been cast far and wide at all. That's the struggle.
None of that suggests I have jumped to Moyes defence.
For the last time, in simple English for you and Moses:
1. I'm embarassed by the title of your thread
2. You have invented a theory about the inner workings of the clubs transfer policies
3. The core topic - blame - is completely ridiculous given we are mid-window - how can we 'blame' anyone for anything?
Clear? You've gone to great lengths to try and push back on all of these points but perhaps that is because the whole opening thrust of this thread is to say the very least, flawed.
Well that further strengthens the notion that transfer forum residents are clowns (and likely teenagers) who know little about the game, wheras the United forum gang, for want of a better expression, are the ones who are concerned with the needs of the team.
Personally, whilst I agree it is exciting to sign quality players, I think most of the talk and hypothetical formations have been about how we can improve the midfield, and perhaps potentially replace Rooney.
I also think we all, probably yourself included, get excited at the prospect of quality additions. My guess is you didn't just shrug your shoulders and move on when we got Persie, despite the informed concensus being 'we don't need a striker'.
I don't think Top is a clown, a teenager or clueless about the game. Not in the slightest. I just think he sees transfers as a lot of fun and finds the whole thing very exciting. Shiny new toys are fun and exciting. I don't see that as being condescending it's just I see that as how they're perceived. Some people enjoy that side of things more than others. In addition to that they can also give people the satisfaction of adding quality to the squad and addressing issues - I think that applies to everyone. I was just saying that if you're feeling like that excitement is lacking then it's worth remembering that we've got stacks of quality up front that we've yet to see anywhere near full flow and that itself is pretty mouthwatering if you take a step back and imagine all those permutations. That excitement can be found in other places.My inner muppet is quite jealous of Spurs this summer.
No doubt he's seen hundreds of players that are potentially good enough for United but I don't think anyone just walks into a new team and thinks "I liked the look of him a few months back, I'll just go out and get him". I imagine they'll want to look into things in a bit more depth even for the well known players. They'll already know how good the player is but where he fits in and what his mentality is like in various circumstances? I don't think that can be figured out from a few games.He's a football man. It would not suprise me if he had great knowledge of the world's best midfielders.
Worth remembering that even as an Everton coach, he probably regularly watched the best for tactical analysis etc. Look how many mini Barcelonas are out there now. I'm sure Martinez, Rogers and Laudrup studied Barca in great depth, even if the plan was to implement with far lesser players.
Why would you use the word blame in the title of the thread if you do not blame someone for something? Isnt that forbidden?
I agree, my only point is that it's no different to last year. Arguably it was more alarming last year, as Tom is now an 'established' England midfielder? But really it's not new.
Totally
I can't blame Moyes for not making any transfer, because for all we know we can do alright with these players. Anyway, I don't find valid the reason people mention here that he came here only in July (officially). So did Pellegrini, Mourinho and Ancelotti. AVB came last season at Spurs and signed Vertonghen and Dembele. Okay we don't have the unlimited funds these teams have (bar Spurs who aren't as rich as us) but we are pretty wealthy and Moyes wasn't that he came from moon, he was a manager on EPL for more than a decade. He acknowledged that we need midfielders but yet he didn't sign a midfielder (for all we know we have money, but there is also a slim possibility that Woodward is lying). If we get problems in midfield than Moyes should be blamed IMO.
Do you think Villas-Boas was the one who chose to get Vertonghen rather than those involved at Spurs identifying him well before he was even in charge? Don't you think it was likely that Vertonghen fit the profile for the type of signing Spurs would make and they scouted him extensively while Redknapp was there (and possibly before)? Ancelotti has said before that he was simply "given" players while at Milan and he - as the coach, nothing more - was given the task of fitting them into the team. Milan have been doing this since Berlusconi arrived. He's undoubtedly doing the same at Madrid. Moyes and United is different because the hierarchy is different but I think we're closer to the European model than seems to be suggested. Even in England now very few managers are the ones who have total control over who the club signs, and even when that was widespread there were very few managers who had any involvement in the negotiation or financial side of transfers. That's where I'm saying it makes no sense to criticise Moyes. If he has any involvement in us failing to get Fábregas then it would be through him saying to Woodward "we're only going to spend x amount on him, don't go above that" - we won't know either way if that took place. It's highly unlikely he had anything to do with how much we bid to begin with yet I've seen him getting flak for even that.
I haven't seen much evidence of a pre-meditated plan so far this window. I said in another thread a while back that I was of the belief that a list of targets is usually compiled well in advance of the window (like the Lucas/Hazard/Kagawa talk starting months before the window last year) - and we would usually go into a window having an idea of whether the player was interested and/or club wished to sell.
.
One of the players we're chasing is someone we looked at while he was at Wigan. The other was watched when we our scouts were seen at Liege games apparently looking at Defour. Both are amongst the best in their position in the PL. It's exactly the type of player we looked at signing under Sir Alex. I didn't say Moyes doesn't pick the players we sign, I said he picks from a list of players we've already looked at and judged to be potential United players. They may not be the same ones Sir Alex would have signed - as mentioned in the OP - but they would've come from the same list/group of players.
Although it's true we have tended to buy within the premier league the fact that a good amount of the current team, De Gea, Rafael, Vidic, Evra, Nani, Kagawa, and many others have been bought from outside the league suggests to me we're happy to bring in foreign based players even if there is a preference for PL based players.
To all of you not blaming Moyes for our lack of transfers - yes - if he gave the board a list of realistic transfer targets and the board still failed to sign them. But all this crap about him only being here for a few months etc etc - are you serious ? He has been in the P.L for over 10 years - he has probably seen United play hundreds of times, and he has probably scouted United 15-20 times to find their weaknesses. He knew very well where our weaknesses were, before he signed. And every midfielder in Europe that could strengthen United, he knew and had scouted from his Everton-days. Could he get them as an Everton-manager ? No - but he knew in case they ever for some strange reason were available for Everton. It's not like he scouted a totally different range of players just because he was in charge of Everton.
To all of you not blaming Moyes for our lack of transfers - yes - if he gave the board a list of realistic transfer targets and the board still failed to sign them. But all this crap about him only being here for a few months etc etc - are you serious ? He has been in the P.L for over 10 years - he has probably seen United play hundreds of times, and he has probably scouted United 15-20 times to find their weaknesses. He knew very well where our weaknesses were, before he signed. And every midfielder in Europe that could strengthen United, he knew and had scouted from his Everton-days. Could he get them as an Everton-manager ? No - but he knew in case they ever for some strange reason were available for Everton. It's not like he scouted a totally different range of players just because he was in charge of Everton.
Surely the plan was obvious
A targets Fabregas, Ronaldo, Bale
Of which they decided Fabregas was realistic, and the others probably didn't get much beyond sniffing around
B target Thiago
Before deciding he wouldn't fit us
Fallback/safety net Fellaini and Baines
You're half right and half wrong. Right, because I'm sure he knew our weaknesses and what we needed, and I doubt the time spent with the squad since training began changed too much. It's not like we've suddenly found a brand new quality midfielder within us. Heck, we're even short or numbers.
Wrong, though, because he couldn't look at everyone and scout everyone at Everton. I believe the article in the Independent also pointed out his system filtered out unrealistic targets. Now, a lot of those realistic targets are realistic targets. More to the point, they are of the qualify he needs to bring in now. So if he wants to do thorough work regarding players before he brings them in, it just wasn't going to happen in his first transfer window. Which explains why we seemed to have gone mostly for players of PL experience or even present.
You're half right and half wrong. Right, because I'm sure he knew our weaknesses and what we needed, and I doubt the time spent with the squad since training began changed too much. It's not like we've suddenly found a brand new quality midfielder within us. Heck, we're even short or numbers.
Wrong, though, because he couldn't look at everyone and scout everyone at Everton. I believe the article in the Independent also pointed out his system filtered out unrealistic targets. Now, a lot of those realistic targets are realistic targets. More to the point, they are of the qualify he needs to bring in now. So if he wants to do thorough work regarding players before he brings them in, it just wasn't going to happen in his first transfer window. Which explains why we seemed to have gone mostly for players of PL experience or even present.