It's nonesense. If anything, children are maturing faster today, both emotionally and physically. Being thrusted into fighting or marriage is hardly proof of maturity, it's abuse.
How peaceful is Islam?
- Thread starter Momochiru
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It's nonesense. If anything, children are maturing faster today, both emotionally and physically. Being thrusted into fighting or marriage is hardly proof of maturity, it's abuse.
Because she was nine for feck's sake.
Her young age is central to my point. The Prophet (SAWS) died at age 63, so she had 44 years of her life after the Prophet (SAWS) died, in a time of great fitin (tribulation). The religion only began to be formally codified, and written down during the 3rd Caliphs reign, and the presence of Aisha (RA) is absolutely crucial to this part of the religion. The Arabs back then would memorise great deals of information, and transfer of knowledge was done orally. Aisha (RA), in terms of memorisation, was one of the best, coupled with the inquisitive nature (as all youths have), her scholarly outlook was held in extremely high regard. The nature of Aisha (RA) is well documented. And as I said, without her so much would have been lost. The fact that she was around for 44 years, outlived her husband, the 1st Caliph, the 2nd Caliph, the 3rd Caliph, and the 4th Caliph was a huge reason why Islam managed to persist.
Aisha (RA) and Abu Hurayra (RA) had conveyed upwards of 4500+ Hadith, and Aisha (RA) specifically lived with the Prophet (SAWS) in the last 10 years of his life as a prophet. She is a central figure, and it had to be someone young to keep the religion intact during transitioning periods.
I know you mean well but that is some ridiculous apologism. Surely an omnipotent god could have figured out another way to pass on a message than to ordain a marraige between a 9 year old child and a 53 year old with 2 wives already.
Wtf dude...
One thing that doesn't get mentioned that much is that Aisha was at least 5 years younger than the daughter of Muhammad, Fatima.
I just cannot see how anyone can justify this.
In the context of viewing things 1400+ years ago within the prism of 2015, it might seem odd to you.
Like I said earlier, I had my doubts, and I asked the same questions, but with research and learning under a very reputable and intelligent scholar, those doubts were allayed.
I'm not really here to convince you, and I doubt you'll convince me either, but as always, a little context goes a long way.
The first bolded - He (SAWS) doesn't make the rules.How do you think this looks from the outside? A guy making the rules and then being above them.
Sure, but Muhammad wasn't the average Joe. What might have been okay for others, shouldn't be okay fr what is mentioned as the best person ever. And marrying a 9 years old child doesn't sound that nice.
Considering that his first marriage was with an extremely powerful rich woman (likely the richest person in Arabia) 15 years his senior, and his second marriage with basically a princess, looks far more the behaviour of an oppurtunistic person rather than a noble one.
Recite me now Al-Kafirun.
And underlined bit - again, there were somethings that were ok for the Prophet (SAWS) and not for the people and vice versa. I've given examples of this.
Second bolded - read up on the marriage to Khadija (RA) and what the people at the time thought, and how it came about.
And eleven/twelve year old kids fought war back then, you cant just take age as an arbitrary number. You have to consider at which age the kids were considered adults back then.
Thats not really true though, historically kids were given more responsibility at an earlier age compared to now. Alexandre was 17 when he conquered half the world, I wouldnt really call that abuse.
DIfferent times had a different age of maturity.
This is so wrong. Plenty of kids are making ends meet in the street of Asia or South America. It doesn't mean biologically or emotionally they are ready for that.
Alexandre was educated and prepared his whole life prior to taking over Phillip's mantle, and it was a kind of abuse, given what kind of person he became.
Also, you can't use outliers to prove the mean. 11/12 year olds might be forced to go to wars in olden times, but it was necessity rather than maturity, simple because you have more chance of winning with 17/18 year old able bodied males than pre-pubescent boys.
Okay but this brings us back to my earlier point. People can say "well things were different back then". But if you are divinely inspired you don't get to play that card. God isn't limited by whatever is considered socially acceptable at the time. He's god!
I'm saying that in those times she was considered an adult as she had begun her menses. All kids who have reached adolescence / puberty are considered adults. Especially in Islam, as this is when you are held responsible for your actions etc. So whether you hit puberty at 9 or 11 or 13 is immaterial as 'years alive' is an arbitrary unit of measure. Adolescence is a universal unit of measure.
Even if we assume that she was an adult (well, the marriage in Islam is void if both members aren't adults and it isn't consumated), still is it morally justifiable for the person ever to get married with a girl who is 45 years his junior and who is 5+ years younger than Muhammad's daughter?
Of course that question can be formulated straightforward as: do you support paedophilia? Because, that is what that act is.
NB: of course, there is the possibility that Aisha was older than that. But this card started being playing only in the last century (from Turkish scholars), when it wasn't cool anymore to feck kids.
Of course that question can be formulated straightforward as: do you support paedophilia? Because, that is what that act is.
NB: of course, there is the possibility that Aisha was older than that. But this card started being playing only in the last century (from Turkish scholars), when it wasn't cool anymore to feck kids.
I didn't expect @MJJ to justify this marrying 9 year old girl thing. I have no idea why muslims even on liberal side get so defensive on everything religious.
Regardless of the social norms, you shouldn't be wanting to have sex with a nine-year old.
If the UK suddenly abandoned any consent laws, I'd still be appalled at any man having sex with a nine year old. Obviously.
If the UK suddenly abandoned any consent laws, I'd still be appalled at any man having sex with a nine year old. Obviously.
Am just pointing out that the age that a person is considered an adult was different back then. Dont see how that is being defensive.
You are again assuming that they were forced to go to war or that they were outliers. Like I said the definition of the age of maturity has changed over times and will change in the future as well.
But the prophet was just a man, he wasnt related to angels or God. What was acceptable back then will change with time, a religion would be pointless if it doesnt grow with time. If the age of maturity was 9-12 back then, it would have been weird if Islam said that you cant marry anyone under 18. A better way is that you can only marry soemone who has achieved puberty or an adult and the definition of that changes with time.
How do we know that God didn't arrange for Muhammad to marry a little child as a test for mankind? When each person dies, and is judged, those that follow their conscience and speak out against pedophilia will be saved, and those who defend the obvious wrong will be sent straight to hell? Man has been given free will has he not, to choose between good and evil?
On the other side, considering that following what Muhammad did is Sunnah, Muslims should try to emulate their prophet, even in that aspect, right?
Also, why would be evil to feck a 9 years old girl (who is on puberty) from a Muslim point of view, if Muhammad did so. By emulating him, surely it will be counted as 'doing the right thing' in the judgement day.
Finally, don't scientist say that the free will doesn't exist? Combined with Allah knowing everything that will happen even before it happens, the entire 'test' stuff seems a ridiculous deterministic experiment. Doesn't the God have anything more important to do that laughing with us?
It's pointless to debate religious apologists. Banging your head against the wall every single time, but still you get too exasperated occasionally and get hooked in again.
11/12 kids willingly going to battle, 9 year old girl willing to marry a 53 year old of their own free will! Yeah right, plausible. You don't have to be Einsteins to know how fecked up that is FFS.
11/12 kids willingly going to battle, 9 year old girl willing to marry a 53 year old of their own free will! Yeah right, plausible. You don't have to be Einsteins to know how fecked up that is FFS.
This is ridiculous. In no universe should marrying a 9 year old girl be considered acceptable.
Do morals change over time? Have morals changed over time?
Yes. Doesn't make them any less wrong
Only now are we beginning to see 2000 years of wrongs, corrected. All those groups that have been persecuted, children, Homosexuals, women, every race, poor etc.
Not very. I know the common thing to do is to blame terrorist activities on the actions of other countries in the middle east ( the US, Russia, France, UK, etc). But there is also the issue that quite often the terrorists are not even from the area in being bombed,invaded etc. it comes down to the religion.
People can and do try to pass all the blame, these apologists are another problem we have in the world. Self defeatist attitudes that we deserve everything we get. Its an evolution of the sickening anti Jewish conspiracies that have plagued mankind as much as religion.
They also seem to think Islam suddenly turned violent recently. Well yes. If 1400 years ago is considered recent.
ummm wanna expand on that?
Oh come on. Biology is still biology. A 9 year old is nowhere near close to being a grown adult. You simply cannot say otherwise.
Even the first menses/fertility doesn't change that. Look at the article Revan posted: there were girls who gave birth at the age of six!
You can't give the extremists a pass because of the foreign policies of Western powers & Russia but at the same time it's a joke to absolve them of any blame and criticism considering what they have done in the region over the last century or so.
Learning the lessons of the negative effects our foreign policies should be an important lesson that people strive to learn to help avoid similar issues in the future.
Learning the lessons of the negative effects our foreign policies should be an important lesson that people strive to learn to help avoid similar issues in the future.
This is a bad excuse for the common pedo rapist of the period, and a bloody unacceptable one for a person who a billion people consider to have lived a perfect life and one people are supposed to emulate through all of time.
Would you be okay with your daughter marrying a 50 something year old at the age of 9?
Not according to the Qu'ran, the self proclaimed end of knowledge. If Mo did it, everyone else is allowed to.
So much of "but it was acceptable back then". I hope the irony isn't lost on the people making that point.
Do I live in that century?
Innit. If even god's main man didn't know not to feck a little girl, then either Allah is a sick, evil being or Mo was a charlatan. And I'm guessing the latter.
Are you saying that what Muhammad did and said is only applicable to the 7th century?
I mean, I agree with that but it's a bit surprising coming from you.
Are you telling me that Allah only recently realised little girls can't consent to sex? Because Mo was supposedly his main man. If Mo didn't know know, what the feck was Allah doing?
Game, set, match.........
It's a good thing you're using emoji's now, because the pedophile apologism you've been doing so far is fecking disgusting.Try reading my last few posts instead of making assumptions, will help.
Nope - in literally the same post I mentioned how certain actions were for the Prophet (SAWS) and him alone, and some actions were for the people and the people alone. I even gave examples of this.
I don't think this is an acceptable viewpoint in Islam. Isn't the Koran supposed to be the word of God, true and timelessly valid in its entirety?
If it is acceptable and the religion and its texts are under scrutiny to grow and change with time, that's great.