If Ole tries to play a pressing game with Matic and Mata, then as far as I am concerned, time's up. The West Ham defenders were almost sniggering at Mata's efforts to press, given his lack of speed.
How much time is enough time to gauge Ole?
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Things is though, for all the moaning and bluster, West Ham is the ONLY match where we have not completely dominated everything that goes on on the pitch. Chelsea being the noteable outlier, where we actually hit the net instead of missing everything.
It's hard to say because you would think he's managing Huddersfield with the expectations that have been set. By Man United standards, he's had plenty of time to implement his style on the squad and if this is it then we're in trouble. We are worse off now than at any point during Jose's tenure or LVGs and that's really saying something. Fans that are pro-ole seem to have no problem dropping standards and making excuses for him, let's hope the board and Ed don't do the same.
The difference with Moyes is there was evidently no plan with him, the job was too big and he had no idea what he wanted the team to be. For example when he was given the opportunity to sign Mata and jumped at the chance without any idea how to use him effectively.
People are arguing they see no progress, which I think simply isn't true. The changes on the pitch are evident, we are far stronger defensively and when everyone is fit we are a more potent attacking force under Ole than we were under Mourinho. We need a no 10 and a right winger, both of which he tried to solve in the summer by targeting Sancho and Dybala, neither of which came off for different reasons and he didn't want to settle for second rate so decided to give his young players the chance instead - all the correct long term decisions.
Ole clearly has a plan for how he wants the team to play and how he wants the club to be. He had a great start with the players response to Mourinho going but after that the squad deficiencies have held us back.
I would agree that the team loses attacking impetus too often but I think this is more due to the players that are currently at his disposal (Matic, Mata, Young). He needs to time to build a squad that will play the way he wants, basically the exact opposite of how Mourinho wanted his team to play and so not really possible with the squad he took over.
I don't deny I really want Ole to succeed here but that's not due to any misty eyed view of him and the story it would create, it's because for the first time in 6 years I can clearly see the club acting with a long term vision in mind for what it wants to be and the way it wants to play.
Letting go of a proven premier striker and not signing a replacement for one. You do both, or neither. But I referred to the clubs decision making too especially around structure
Not surprised to see that from a newly promoted side. But global juggernaut, Manchester United? It's some sort of sick 'be careful what you wish for' joke.
what SAF did with Aberdeen, breaking the Rangers/Celtic duopoly is up there with his greatest achievements. It’s his “Porto winning the champions league”. There’s no comparison with what Ole has achieved in Norway. He was already a great manager when we got him.
So you prefer ignoring younger players?
We have no evidence that he had any opportunity to sign a replacement CF and refused, and Lukaku had to go, so I don't see how that goes down as a bad decision.
I prefer bedding youngsters into a well functioning team. Rather not take promising academy grads and put them into the boiling pot.
Do you get how that can ruin these kids careers? Or just as bad for us, they'll move to another club and become top players because they weren't thrown into a match with their pants down because the clubs a mess.
Dundee United actually broke the duopoly in 83 before Aberdeen. Celtic and Rangers were no where near as dominent in the early 80s as before or since. I'm not trying to play down SAFs achievements, just putting them into context.
EDIT: this is actually wrong, I'd forgotten Aberdeen won it in 79/80, still, Dundee Uts winning it does still support the point that Rangers and Celtic weren't the dominant forces they are or have been.
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To what extent was lukaku having to go a result of Oles player management? I wonder. Anyway, my point is also... Woodward doesn’t get to duck responsibility for shaky decisions.
Not convinced by that argument. But that s my opinion.
Of course not. But perhaps Ole is throwing in too many even when they might not be ready.
Just to put into context and that class on '92 etc, that winning squad of '96 also included a defence that included Schmeichel, Irwin, May, Pallister, Cantona, Keane, Mclair and we were champtions just a few years before in '94.
This squad have pretty much won feck all and then "established" players can't seem to lead, so where are the kids meant to look when they need help
Lukaku did leave because he was no longer first choice. He may score goals in purple patches but the fact is he can't control a football and so basically ruins any build-up play that doesn't result in him shooting, so it was the right call in the long term interest of the team.
I am in no way defending Woodward or his management of the club. He's been a disaster for the footballing side of the club since the moment he took over.
That's not true, Aberdeen's first title was 1979-80 in SAF's second season. Under his management, Aberdeen was winner or runner up in 5 out of six years. The one year Aberdeen wasn't, they were third (sound like a familiar SAF pattern?)
And he won the Cup Winner's Cup there too.
Just no comparison. His record in Scotland was exceptional.
Woody should get him 3 players in january. 1DM 1AM and a striker, even if its a short term 30 year old. See how the 2nd half of the season pans out. If he turns the results around then back him again in the summer with another 3-4 players. This is what ought to happen. Im not holding my breath this will, but if we are lower than 6th at the end of the season, he will be gone.
I want him to succeed probably more than the previous three, and I wasn't against any of them. There is the extra romantic angle of being succesful with a club cult hero as the manager.
I also don't think Ole is clueless or has no plan. I agree about Moyes. His problem was that there was never any evidence of a plan. Ole has told everyone what his plan is, for all the speculating on here he has actually told people how he wants to coach his team to play. There is nothing wrong with any of it but what he has to prove is that he is capable of pulling it off with a set of top end Premier League players.
I think the signings are evidence of a move in the right direction. In some games there is evidence in our play of a move in the direction Ole wants to go. You see the front three press teams. You can see how we set up to counter. You can see players executing things in accordance with a plan. I'm not too worried about the players not being good enough at this point or the squad being weak. I don't expect us to challenge for anything other than top four. I think Ole made a massive mistake in letting Sanchez go in particular, but that isn't something that stops him making progress in other areas so it's not a terminal mistake or something I would want him gone for if I can see progress elsewhere.
The problem though is that performances like the one against West Ham, and against Palace, just undermine everything. When you have a team of players just strolling about, with no clue, no hint of a desire to do anything, then you have nothing at all to work with. It doesn't matter how good or bad your players are, if you send them out allowing them to play like this you will never get anywhere. We had no injury concerns against Palace, yet the first half performance was literally no better at all than yesterday. Whatever the plan is doesn't matter if you aren't capable of getting the players to follow it.
After 9 months I really don't think this should be happening. This is more than enough time to make players understand how you want them to play, and to make them understand there are standards and expectations to go along with that. After 9 months players who aren't meeting those requirements shouldn't be near a team sheet and if you get a performance like the one yesterday it shouldn't be a case of sitting there being happy with it for 60 minutes. THe players should have it fully in their heads what they are expected to do and the attitude they should be approaching it with, and if that is the case then Ole would be entitled to be making his dissatisfaction known to them after literally about 2 minutes yesterday.
I don't expect a depleted team in a weak squad to go to West Ham and not struggle...but I also don't expect them to come out strolling about the pitch as if it's a sunday league game for hungover 40 year olds. The nature of performances like this alarms me a lot because if they are going to be a habbit then Ole is not going to last, no matter how much good will anyone has for him. He needs to make sure it doesn't happen again.
You are correct, it was my error, but the fact that another team than Aberdeen, Rangers or Celtic was able to win the title does still support the point that Rangers and Celtic weren't as dominant.
Currently, we are showing relegation form, partly because we can't score goals. Is that in the long term interest of the team?
My point is, Ferguson's CV meant he deserved a bit of patience from the United Board. Part of Ole's problem, is he hasn't got the same credentials to point to when he's under pressure over results. That one is on Woodward, who should have thought this through.
On another thread I was told that it s not true that we re giving younger players a chance.
One way or another it seems he cannot get one right with some of you
I agree with you on the whole, but I don't think the strolling about is as prevelant as you think it is, and I think players like Mata and Matic, both who really had to play against West Ham, don't have the legs to do anything else anymore.
I wanted it to work. But fact is..
If we look back to that famous side that lost to Villa, it still had Steve Bruce, Keane, Gary Pallister, Irwin, Sharpe, Schmeicall, May and of course Eric Cantona.
THAT side won with the kids. To think the likes of Young, Lingard, Mata even with Pogba and Maguire is enough to help this current batch along it's more than unrealistic. It's completely irresponsible of the manager, coaching staff and board.
We are conceding an average of a goal a game and of the 6 matches we have played this season, we have not outplayed any opposition team and we have not played any of the best teams yet. I see zero difference tactically (and this seems a common view on here that is shared with me) between Ole's team now and Jose's team before his sacking. We setup in the same way, our midfield works in the same way, our striker is just as isolated before but this season we have a bright spark in James. I'm sorry to break it to you but Ole's already said how he wants us to play and it's essentially Mourinho's structure, heavily reliant on the counter attack with additional pressing, of which we're yet to see any evidence.
I agree on SAF, but I think that Ole deserves time to try to put his vision into practise, and 9 months with largely the same squad Mourinho assembled for his sit back and defend approach isn't enough.
Relegation form? We're 8th ffs, 3 points off 3rd.
And 4 points from relegation. We lost to Palace and West Ham FFS, what do you think would happen if we approached Arsenal/Liverpool the same way in the next couple of weeks? Norwich/Bournemouth would probably outplay us in all.
If you've made a bad decision, it's better to correct it quickly than wait for the full consequences to unfold.
But ONLY if you now know how to make the right decision (which I'm not sure Woodward does).
Patience isn’t the problem with the people that want Ole out. I’m sure most wouldn’t have a problem being patient if we had a proven manager or even a younger but promising one like Nagelsmann. You can’t blame us for not wanting to be patient with a manager that proved in a 10 years career that he isn’t even Championship quality, you wouldn’t trust Eirik Horneland(Rosenborg’s manager) either. Remove the nepotism, and he’s exactly like that.
Complete domination?
19 games without away win, and all but chelsea is complete domination?
I shudder to think what city and liverpool would do to us if west ham can sneak in 2.
They'll be out for blood and they'll show no mercy.
It is not his fault that players were not replaced. If Woodward cannot do the job then he should get DoF. If they don't want to commit to purchase players then they could try to loan players with option to buy? Example, Icardi to PSG.
Ole is doing ok given the players he has to pick from.
Ole is doing ok given the players he has to pick from.
I would suggest that if you look at Oles 3 signings compared to the previous 6 years, he’s absolutely nailed it.
AWB, Maquire and James are the 3 best signings we’ve made since SAF left. More quality there than anything we bought under Moyes/VG or Mourinho.
I’m on board but it will take time due to the scale of the decline.
AWB, Maquire and James are the 3 best signings we’ve made since SAF left. More quality there than anything we bought under Moyes/VG or Mourinho.
I’m on board but it will take time due to the scale of the decline.
Even when we beat PSG in Paris, I was still saying he has to have a DoF on top of him due to his inexperience at this level as well as the fact he may not work out, but at least there’s people at the club who can then hire someone who is suitable.
But the DoF thing hasn’t happened and it’s still OGS seemingly filling that Sir Alex shaped hole that has yet to be changed because there is literally no one out of there who can fill that role anymore, and Woodward and the marketing posse having final say in a lot of things again.
If this was what was going to happen, then I wouldn’t have hired OGS permanently. The structure of the club is ridiculous. We’ve got like half a dozen people who are supposedly head of scouting in some form. What the feck is that?
But the DoF thing hasn’t happened and it’s still OGS seemingly filling that Sir Alex shaped hole that has yet to be changed because there is literally no one out of there who can fill that role anymore, and Woodward and the marketing posse having final say in a lot of things again.
If this was what was going to happen, then I wouldn’t have hired OGS permanently. The structure of the club is ridiculous. We’ve got like half a dozen people who are supposedly head of scouting in some form. What the feck is that?
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This season and another one.
He doesn't seem adept tactically. Then again he has made some decent buys for us, a real change from Mourinho throwing money down the loo.
Don't really know whether a change of manager would be beneficial. We've tried so much since SAF has left.
Don't really know whether a change of manager would be beneficial. We've tried so much since SAF has left.
If Poch is available at the end of the season, i’ll say we have to get him before anyone does and if that means ditching Ole, so be it. Poch is the only manager for me that has the capability to build this squad, I don’t see anyone else who is without a club to do so, at least not for now
The bigger question is. If united are outside the top 6 for the rest of the season(blessing in disguise tbh). Will you guys still give ole one last chance? For this season, I see it as a writeoff. Like retreat and rebuild properly this time and then they'll be good to go. I personally wouldn't mind that. I feel like we need a season with no Europe responsibilities, like Chelsea a few seasons ago. This is going to be a painful season for any fan. Simply because united are grossly under strength. With kids as backups.