How do we solve our midfield problem?

Whilst the quality of the midfield on the ball is a factor, the other big issue is the shape of the team. Its clear that apart from pogba we don't have great passers in the team, yet we compound that issue by employing a team shape that requires the midfield to hit long passes to the wingers. Yesterday's first half was actually the first time we had some midfield control and I think a big part of that was Bruno played closer to fred and matic so they had an extra close midfield option to pass to rather than trying to thread it through a needle or hit a long pass. The team shape needs to be more compact and has to give the midfield better passing options. Think of the amount of times the midfield picks the ball up and everyone in front of them are acres away. Yeah its fine when you have scholes and carrick, but when you don't have those type of players you need to make the spaces between players smaller.

Having said that we do still need to upgrade the midfield, but if we don't address the team shape the new midfielders will have to be carrick/scholes level of passers to dominate games.
 
We can't control games because the two managers before Ralf hated anything possession football and it affected their players recruitments.

Hate Van Gaal all you can but you can't deny the fact that our central midfielders then led by Herrera were far better than the one we have one, they comfortably built out from the back with ease even under intense pressure.

Mctominay has no special attribute in his game except hiding behind opposition player during build up, passing sideways and backwards, Fred is a simply average, Matic has regressed due to age, VDB is not being given a chance because he was formed in a possession football system and we don't play that, We need two midfielders reinforcement inorder to start controlling games.

There are lots of cheap options out there that will improve us, why we are dull this window is what i dont understand.
Tielesmann, Kessie, Camara, Bissouma, Arthur Melo etc
Get one or two of them this current transfer season.
 
Recall Garner and Hannibal ASAP. They're definitely better than Fred and would add goals (especially Hannibal). Yesterday you saw what an incisive goal scoring midfielder(J.Ramsey) can do. I see no reason Hannibal can't do that.
 
D. Mungai said:
Absolutely untrue,

In the last 7 years (2015 - onwards) we have signed the following in Euros

Donny - 40m
Bruno - 63m
Fred - 59m
Matic - 44m
Pogba - 105m
Micki - 42m
Morgan - 35m
Bastian -9m
Herrera - 36m
Blind -17m

This around 450 Million Euros. Only Bastian and maybe Blind (he is 31 years now) who are not playing football now. The rest of players are playing their football somewhere, meaning if they were good enough they should be playing at United.

Never have we been involved in a title race, leave alone winning league, with all this investments.

Its from 2015 Kloop took charge of Liverpool, for some perspective. So players have been signed, but we have signed very very poor players. This is a glaring sign of signing people who are not part of a long term ambition of the club.
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You’ve misread my post. Under Ole, our midfield (and I was talking central midfield but wasn’t clear) was neglected. You could argue that Donny isn’t really a CM too.
The majority of those were bought before Ole and were all identified as been poor and/or needing replacements
 
Ollie Derbyshire said:
You try and bolster that area by adding an extra one in, it’s not rocket science is it. We desperately needed the win, got to 2-0, we should have tried to get control instead of leaving it as it is.
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I know what you mean, and yes- but it was a serious quesiton I posted: who, exactly? None of those that have been tried as Matic replacements have exactly set the world afire, eh? Maybe it would have helped, I dpn't know (none of us do) - I just wanted to point out that once you get down to specifics, Ralf has a hell of job on his hands here, and I think a bit of patience would no go amiss.
 
Mr PG said:
Recall Garner and Hannibal ASAP. They're definitely better than Fred and would add goals (especially Hannibal). Yesterday you saw what an incisive goal scoring midfielder(J.Ramsey) can do. I see no reason Hannibal can't do that.
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I agree about Hannibal, would love to see him playing as I think he's a brilliant talent. Don't agree about Fred, though; I believe he's way under-rated and is essentially a scapegoat. But it's not attacking midfielders that were the problem yesterday...it's the Matic position again. If the board won't support Ralf and buy, what exactly is he supposed to do?
 
We sign better midfielders. People act like Klopp is all that, but without van Dyk, Liverpool were absolutely shit last season and finished below -us-. Better players make for a better team. If we sign two better midfielders than Matic and Fred we will play better football, it really is that simple.

And the naysayers that hated Herrera - he's the best we've had at the club since Ferguson was here, and as sad as it is to say, with hindsight - not replacing him was an idiotic move by Solskjaer.
 
Mr PG said:
Recall Garner and Hannibal ASAP. They're definitely better than Fred and would add goals (especially Hannibal). Yesterday you saw what an incisive goal scoring midfielder(J.Ramsey) can do. I see no reason Hannibal can't do that.
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throwing 2 youngsters to this team would ruin them. Players that age need to be slowly and carefully integrated into a team. Pushing them to a struggling team like united with an expectation to turn things around might actually hurt them.
 
united for life said:
throwing 2 youngsters to this team would ruin them. Players that age need to be slowly and carefully integrated into a team. Pushing them to a struggling team like united with an expectation to turn things around might actually hurt them.
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I agree there's some risk involved, but if the board won't put money down for a proper DM, we could do worse than give Garner a go. Wouldn't mind him coming on for Matic around the 60 minute mark on a regular basis as a way for us to gain some control in midfield as Matic tires. We are so badly lacking in that area that Garner would likely improve us.
 
Sign Tchouameni and Tielemans and promote Hannibal. Unrealistically, also buy Rice. Sell Fred and move Matic on; Pogba leaves on a free and DvB can go if we bring in the above.

with Tchouameni, Tielemans, Rice, McT, Hannibal and Bruno we’d have numerous players who could play in each position in a midfield 3 or a double pivot with a #10.

i know signing all three of those CMs is highly unlikely,but we should be able to get two of Tchouameni, Rice and Tielemans, and any two of them would greatly improve us.
 
Lost bear said:
I know what you mean, and yes- but it was a serious quesiton I posted: who, exactly? None of those that have been tried as Matic replacements have exactly set the world afire, eh? Maybe it would have helped, I dpn't know (none of us do) - I just wanted to point out that once you get down to specifics, Ralf has a hell of job on his hands here, and I think a bit of patience would no go amiss.
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IMO we should have taken Cavani off who was done, put DVB on with Fred and Matic in the middle and moved Bruno to false 9. At least try and shore it up.

Your right, Matic is our only CDM so no straight swap but in this game Ralf should have bolstered the midfield and tried to control it when 2 up. He messed up big time IMO. I don’t like seeing us on the ropes every game with half the team knackered by 60mins.
 
soapythecat said:
Our central midfield has been woefully inept for a few seasons. How it was left so long under Ole without reinforcements is just baffling.
If RR wants to keep this role, or make us better, then he needs to buy at least 1 upgraded for our midfield. The whole footballing world can see this.
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What do you mean by "If RR wants to keep this role...."? Do you mean the interim managers role? I'm pretty certain that it is already mapped out: he does it for 6 months, then for 2 years after he is a 'consultant' to whomever the club recruit for the permanent position.

Are you trying to say that if he buys a successful midfielder and gets a solid run together & secures a top-4 position, maybe wins a cup, he will get the managers job? Is that a possibility?

I only ask, because I'm confused if that doesn't happen. Who of any stature, will want to come to Man Utd. to work with a club not in the Champions League? Which up-and-coming manager would want to work for a consultant for 2 years? That would almost be as bad as Ole's situation - when he was advised/undermined by Sir Alex Ferguson, but at least one could argue SAF had earned that right. If Utd. don't get top-4, could Rangnick becoming a well-paid consultant realistically work, or will he just go back to Germany (or was it Russia) and that whole plan will be quietly ditched?
 
Anyone remember saying the same thing about needing a RB....what about a CB.....what about a RW or a proper striker? I'm not convinced that whoever we sign in midfield changes anything, our problems are much deeper than personnel even if they aren't good enough. Whilst people what to go into McFred, there are problems in 70% of the positions.....
 
Litch said:
Anyone remember saying the same thing about needing a RB....what about a CB.....what about a RW or a proper striker? I'm not convinced that whoever we sign in midfield changes anything, our problems are much deeper than personnel even if they aren't good enough. Whilst people what to go into McFred, there are problems in 70% of the positions.....
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You wanna know, what the issue is here? I'd argue, it is for the same reason that causes many many of todays issues. Not just Man United, not just football or sports. The reason is a lack of attention span.
As soon as texts grow longer because problems need to be explained without scapegoating a player, many players or the manager (in Uniteds case, add the whole organisational structure) some folks just switch off. TLDR. Good thing is, they are often easily identified. They will tell you stuff like "we really need better players, because better players make a better team. It is that simple".
 
NZT-One said:
You wanna know, what the issue is here? I'd argue, it is for the same reason that causes many many of todays issues. Not just Man United, not just football or sports. The reason is a lack of attention span.
As soon as texts grow longer because problems need to be explained without scapegoating a player, many players or the manager (in Uniteds case, add the whole organisational structure) some folks just switch off. TLDR. Good thing is, they are often easily identified. They will tell you stuff like "we really need better players, because better players make a better team. It is that simple".
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You are probably right. There is a mentality that seems to polarise the issue, often to a player or position. It's all about the midfield not good enough to get top four this season, wasn't this the same midfield that we got to 3rd and 2nd? They aren't good enough but if that means winning the Prem or CL, then as a club, we aren't good enough....
 
GazTheLegend said:
We sign better midfielders. People act like Klopp is all that, but without van Dyk, Liverpool were absolutely shit last season and finished below -us-. Better players make for a better team. If we sign two better midfielders than Matic and Fred we will play better football, it really is that simple.
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This. Was gonna say similar, but you beat me to it.
 
ATXRedDevil said:
Sign Tchouameni and Tielemans and promote Hannibal. Unrealistically, also buy Rice. Sell Fred and move Matic on; Pogba leaves on a free and DvB can go if we bring in the above.

with Tchouameni, Tielemans, Rice, McT, Hannibal and Bruno we’d have numerous players who could play in each position in a midfield 3 or a double pivot with a #10.

i know signing all three of those CMs is highly unlikely,but we should be able to get two of Tchouameni, Rice and Tielemans, and any two of them would greatly improve us.
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So an outlay of between 100-150mil and we would be lucky to recoup 15mil on Fred,
No problem.
 
Ironically this is one of the only problems were throwing money at it is the only way to fix it for us, because we could have Pep as our manager, it wouldn’t matter, alot of our midfield is extremely poor technically and make a lot of mistakes, if it were up to me id be rid of McTominay and Fred in the summer but its hardly likey to happen.

Tchouameni id highly consider
Neves if not too expensive

Theres olenty kf great young CM talent out there with young fresh legs, its just wherher we go for them (i hope) or get obsessed with the likes of Rice and Bellingham because they are big names, like we went with Maguire instead of Ruben Dias. We shouldn't be making these mistakes anymore, im hoping we dont if Rangnick sticks around in some capacity
 
Mr PG said:
Recall Garner and Hannibal ASAP. They're definitely better than Fred and would add goals (especially Hannibal). Yesterday you saw what an incisive goal scoring midfielder(J.Ramsey) can do. I see no reason Hannibal can't do that.
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Garner and Hannibal "definitely better than Fred"? Sure, they'd both walk into the Brazilian national team if they were Brazilian. Definitely.
 
We should be throwing everything at this in January, we lose points every week through lack of control in midfield. Opposition players seem to have a free passage from their own penalty box to ours for most of the game, it's horrendous.

We don't even need top quality, we just need midfielders who can do a basic job to see us through until summer. Matic is shot (or can't be arsed) and Fred isn't that player. McTominay is good for about two games per season and then does his usual disappearing act.
 
I guess we'll probably wait until the summer at this stage. There's plenty of deadwood to sell to raise the cash, so let's see if we can actually get recruitment right.
 
Bondi77 said:
So an outlay of between 100-150mil and we would be lucky to recoup 15mil on Fred,
No problem.
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We spent around £90m on VDB and Fred, no? It’s going to take a 9-figure outlay to get the quality needed to fix this problem, imo. Even Haidara is €40m and we need two new starters in midfield that can fill two different roles; not sure he fills either role or that he’s starter quality.

Rice would blow the numbers up and that’s why I said he’s unrealistic, but Tielemans with a year left on his contract and Tchouameni should be doable for around £100m. Two instant starters, one premier league proven and entering his peak years and one being one of the hottest prospects in Europe. Barring getting someone like kessie on a free, I’m not sure we could do much better than that.
 
Knowing United, they will probably extend Matics contract again and only sign one CM.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
Modric, Kroos, and Casemiro: A perfectly balanced trio.
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Our approach to building a fully functional and title winning midfield has been utterly pathetic. Incredible what Madrid have achieved since 2015 with theirs, though.
 
England was played off the park at the Euros with Rice in midfield...hint hint Moyes is playing a blinder trying suck us into buying Rice for 100m. No please No. Rice will be another Maguire if he comes here.
 
How about we just signed two dcm's who can also pass and leave Bruno in his prefered position?
 
One's fine, he's good as KDB,
One's positioning's not quite there.
One waltzes on his way to pass,
One's tall as a small pear.
And when they're out in training, at least they don't look scared.
They smile and pose for images from Getty.

Some don't like later hours,
But their dedication's real.
At least with Ando, heart we got,
With every Happy Meal...
The fans try not to say it, just what they truly feel
They try to bouy their spirits from the Stretty.

I'd like to say a word on Paul's behalf!
(Then say it, Sister Fanboyetta)
Paul is like totally a natural leader you guys, look at him being a leader in the locker room and leading, ohmygod yeeah, what's up, get some, yeah hi five, woohoo!

(*Mother Superior lets out a sigh*)

How do you solve the problem that's our midfield?
Fred isn't bad and Scott does cover ground
How do you tell Paul Pogba his career
Was over the second he left the first time around?

Many a thing you know you'd like to tell them
Many a thing they ought to understand
But how do you make them play
When Woodward has overpaid
For leftovers, ruses and one happy Spanish man?
Oh how do you solve the problem that's our midfield?
How did Jo-lé get second with these lads?

When you watch them you're confused!
They'd misplace a shoe on foot!
And they never know whose man is whose to choose!
They're predictable as weather!
Do some pressing? Oh-no-never!
"We're too precious!
Let's just let 'em
Walk on through!"

Look they've got us, five blue shirts!
Should we track back? You go first!
I've got Instagrams to post, fanboys to con!
It's disjointed; it's a mess!
It sends foreign fans to bed!
How much polish can a turd take
If it's Wood? (ward)

Oh how do you solve the problem that's our midfield
When they can't trap a ball and bring it down?
Who would risk such a promising career (to be)
Put out to pasture with pastors and jogging clowns?

Many a day you know you'd like to sell them
Many a day you dream of Bellingham.
But you're stuck with them for the year
Or more cause Ed wiped his rear
With contracts he shat on the club oh that prince of finance!

Oh how do you solve the problem that's our midfield?
Do any of them deserve these hallowed grounds?
How do you tell Paul Pogba his career
As influencer is something that's not allowed?

Seems everyday we're linked with some solution
Just one more window trust in some grand plan...

(big finale)
Oh how do you solve the problem that's our midfield?
Someone said buy a new one....well feck that.
 
NZT-One said:
You wanna know, what the issue is here? I'd argue, it is for the same reason that causes many many of todays issues. Not just Man United, not just football or sports. The reason is a lack of attention span.
As soon as texts grow longer because problems need to be explained without scapegoating a player, many players or the manager (in Uniteds case, add the whole organisational structure) some folks just switch off. TLDR. Good thing is, they are often easily identified. They will tell you stuff like "we really need better players, because better players make a better team. It is that simple".
Click to expand...

Truth...midfield had always been our major issue. Other positions simply got scapegoats for it. The fact is we have consistently struggled to control games in a way that alleviates our defence or provides a platform for our attackers to create and score.

Liverpool looking bad defensively is them conceding while dominating games. Chelsea lacking creativity and goals in attack is them having and winning possession constantly with no end product. Even with these issues, they dominated games week in week out.

United have hardly dominated games since 2013. We've consistently struggled to win the ball back, have spent ages getting the ball to attackers and have been poor in stopping the counter when we open up. Our attackers have constantly had to deal with difficult situations ( 2 vs 1) against other defences and our defenders have had to constantly be aware of threats when we open up a little. Ole literally had to park Fred and Mctominay and tell them to stay behind just so we wouldn't be opened up. Not because of their tackling or positioning, but for extra bodies.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
Click to expand...


Really nice trio but a lot of midfielders went through the club to get reach that point. I was particularly very fond on Xabi Alonso but Modric and Kroos are going to go down as legends in this club along with Casemiro.
 
tjb said:
Truth...midfield had always been our major issue. Other positions simply got scapegoats for it. The fact is we have consistently struggled to control games in a way that alleviates our defence or provides a platform for our attackers to create and score.

Liverpool looking bad defensively is them conceding while dominating games. Chelsea lacking creativity and goals in attack is them having and winning possession constantly with no end product. Even with these issues, they dominated games week in week out.

United have hardly dominated games since 2013. We've consistently struggled to win the ball back, have spent ages getting the ball to attackers and have been poor in stopping the counter when we open up. Our attackers have constantly had to deal with difficult situations ( 2 vs 1) against other defences and our defenders have had to constantly be aware of threats when we open up a little. Ole literally had to park Fred and Mctominay and tell them to stay behind just so we wouldn't be opened up. Not because of their tackling or positioning, but for extra bodies.
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Yep, our transfer budget should be exclusively spent on midfielders this summer. People talk about flashy, attacking fullbacks to keep up with the Joneses but the reality is our midfield at times is barely top half standard.

We need to world class midfielders ASAP if we ever want to be a good team.
 
hungrywing said:
One's fine, he's good as KDB,
One's positioning's not quite there.
One waltzes on his way to pass,
One's tall as a small pear.
And when they're out in training, at least they don't look scared.
They smile and pose for images from Getty.

Some don't like later hours,
But their dedication's real.
At least with Ando, heart we got,
With every Happy Meal...
The fans try not to say it, just what they truly feel
They try to bouy their spirits from the Stretty.

I'd like to say a word on Paul's behalf!
(Then say it, Sister Fanboyetta)
Paul is like totally a natural leader you guys, look at him being a leader in the locker room and leading, ohmygod yeeah, what's up, get some, yeah hi five, woohoo!

(*Mother Superior lets out a sigh*)

How do you solve the problem that's our midfield?
Fred isn't bad and Scott does cover ground
How do you tell Paul Pogba his career
Was over the second he left the first time around?

Many a thing you know you'd like to tell them
Many a thing they ought to understand
But how do you make them play
When Woodward has overpaid
For leftovers, ruses and one happy Spanish man?
Oh how do you solve the problem that's our midfield?
How did Jo-lé get second with these lads?

When you watch them you're confused!
They'd misplace a shoe on foot!
And they never know whose man is whose to choose!
They're predictable as weather!
Do some pressing? Oh-no-never!
"We're too precious!
Let's just let 'em
Walk on through!"

Look they've got us, five blue shirts!
Should we track back? You go first!
I've got Instagrams to post, fanboys to con!
It's disjointed; it's a mess!
It sends foreign fans to bed!
How much polish can a turd take
If it's Wood? (ward)

Oh how do you solve the problem that's our midfield
When they can't trap a ball and bring it down?
Who would risk such a promising career (to be)
Put out to pasture with pastors and jogging clowns?

Many a day you know you'd like to sell them
Many a day you dream of Bellingham.
But you're stuck with them for the year
Or more cause Ed wiped his rear
With contracts he shat on the club oh that prince of finance!

Oh how do you solve the problem that's our midfield?
Do any of them deserve these hallowed grounds?
How do you tell Paul Pogba his career
As influencer is something that's not allowed?

Seems everyday we're linked with some solution
Just one more window trust in some grand plan...

(big finale)
Oh how do you solve the problem that's our midfield?
Someone said buy a new one....well feck that.
Click to expand...
Cheers!
 
GazTheLegend said:
We sign better midfielders. People act like Klopp is all that, but without van Dyk, Liverpool were absolutely shit last season and finished below -us-. Better players make for a better team. If we sign two better midfielders than Matic and Fred we will play better football, it really is that simple.

And the naysayers that hated Herrera - he's the best we've had at the club since Ferguson was here, and as sad as it is to say, with hindsight - not replacing him was an idiotic move by Solskjaer.
Click to expand...

Hindsight? A few of us were annoyed he was let go. His replacement is effectively Fred, who isn't that good a player. When we bought VDB, I was thinking okay maybe now we'll finally a have a centre midfielder who we can build from and play actual possession football. Look how that has turned out.

It's criminal that Nemanja Matic is still starting games and lasting 90 minutes for us.
 
Get one of Kamara, Zakaria or Tchouamenie in January
then one of Rice / Neves / Tielemans in the summer

Mid three: Bruno - K/Z/Tch - N/R/T
Double pivot: K/Z/Tch - N/R/T
Attacking Mids: Bruno / Donny + Mejbri

McT and Fred can happily be squad players, with the younger ones in Garner, Galbraith, and also Mejbri and Pellistri coming in.
Let Pogba, Matic, Mata, Lingaard and Pereira off the books, even if it is all for free.

Midfield sorted out and arguably for less than what we paid for Maguire only. It can cost as little as 55 mill. or as much as 120+ mill.
 
McTominay and Fred feel like the same player, one the better finisher and the other a better passer in and around the box. The midfielders we're being linked with like Haidara seem to be a similar profile as well. Be nice to get a more complimentary piece, similar to Matic before his legs gave away to remain a constant, stabilizing presence, so we can rotate the other two.
 
Short term - CDM
We need a CDM right now. Matic is too slow and immobile, nobody else can play the role effectively. Our B2B players aren't very creative or very good defensively, this is why we need a CDM who can provide cover and allow us to play Pogba as a CM or use another CM in a more forward minded role.

Medium term - buy first choice CM options
Pogba and DVB are highly likely to leave in the summer, we need to replace them with two first team central midfielders (plan on playing with 3 in the middle). We need to plan to play with 3 midfielders in a 433. It's the most effective, go to formation now. There might be games where we play 4231 but we should look at personnel that can cover both formations effectively. If Pogba stays then we need to consider a DLP with a high workrate, if Donny stays we need to call the police, because he must be being held hostage.

Long Term - replace Fred and possibly McTomminay
Fred hasn't worked for us. He's looked busy, but he's not contributed a great deal going forwards, he doesn't have a big range of passing, he doesn't move the ball quickly and isn't that great defensively either. He's a good backup option, should not be a first team player for us. He's had games where he's looked good, but it's few and far between. When one of our new look first choice midfielders drops out - will replacing him with Fred lower the quality of our midfield? If the answer is yes - then we need to find a better replacement. McTommonay is an academy graduate and still relatively young, he seems to offer a bit more in terms of attacking threat and leadership. He should be given a year or two to see if he can reach the level - if not, move him on too. We don't need a CM version of Lingard.
 
How do we solve our midfield problem.....

Erm, how about actually buying some.
 
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