First and foremost its about bringing in the right manager.
How do we solve our midfield problem?
- Thread starter HailtotheKing
- Start date
The answer to this problem, is becoming a bit like.... "why are we here"?
United fans of the future will trail through the archives and wonder... "why did we not get someone to replace Carrick as DM?
Michael Carrick's DM capabilities will be appraised even more so than they have been now, e.g. it will be realised perhaps that Evra, Vidic and Rio's careers at OT lasted that bit longer, because Carrick played in front of them.
Carrick who had arrived at OT (from Spurs) as an AM, had to convert to DM because he was for a while up against the likes of Scholes in midfield. The fact that Carrick did transform from AM to DM role, perhaps was laying a 'false trail' that managers following SAF have tried to imitate, if we can't recruit a direct DM (of choice) then convert an existing AM?
Everyone playing in our midfield, (with the exception of Matic) since Carrick left, was predominantly an AM... and still is, Mata, Pogba, Fred, McTominay, Bruno, DVB.
(Perhaps SAF had Phil Jones in mind as the new DM, but of course we all know what happened to Phil's blighted career?)
Its a question United aficionado's have contemplated for almost a decade now... and it seems we are no nearer a resolution. If Ralf manages to find us a WC DM (I would still break the bank for Kante!!) he will be worth his weight!
United fans of the future will trail through the archives and wonder... "why did we not get someone to replace Carrick as DM?
Michael Carrick's DM capabilities will be appraised even more so than they have been now, e.g. it will be realised perhaps that Evra, Vidic and Rio's careers at OT lasted that bit longer, because Carrick played in front of them.
Carrick who had arrived at OT (from Spurs) as an AM, had to convert to DM because he was for a while up against the likes of Scholes in midfield. The fact that Carrick did transform from AM to DM role, perhaps was laying a 'false trail' that managers following SAF have tried to imitate, if we can't recruit a direct DM (of choice) then convert an existing AM?
Everyone playing in our midfield, (with the exception of Matic) since Carrick left, was predominantly an AM... and still is, Mata, Pogba, Fred, McTominay, Bruno, DVB.
(Perhaps SAF had Phil Jones in mind as the new DM, but of course we all know what happened to Phil's blighted career?)
Its a question United aficionado's have contemplated for almost a decade now... and it seems we are no nearer a resolution. If Ralf manages to find us a WC DM (I would still break the bank for Kante!!) he will be worth his weight!
Short term put Jones there whilst he is fit as he did well in the past in that position when asked of him, I wish we had actually kept tuanzebe and tried him as a defensive midfielder with his attributes, hell even try maybe luke shaw there, if o'shea and phil Neville could pull it off why can't shaw on a short term basis for this season.
It is literally insanity to keep trying trying the same old combination in midfield when it has clearly shown it does not work so what do we have to lose to try something a little different, christ ragnick is happy playing both rashford and Greenwood out of position as hybrid number 10's in this 4222 formation but god forbid he tries something a little left field to resolve our biggest weak spot in the team.
It is literally insanity to keep trying trying the same old combination in midfield when it has clearly shown it does not work so what do we have to lose to try something a little different, christ ragnick is happy playing both rashford and Greenwood out of position as hybrid number 10's in this 4222 formation but god forbid he tries something a little left field to resolve our biggest weak spot in the team.
+ Internal solution from now to the end of the season = Bruno down as a top, creative and controlling nr.8.
United best XI hasnt been play yet and special give them time to gel together as a unit and collective. With this United squad. Definitely i will go for 442. To get the best out of this United squad. To benefit of it.
Sancho - McTom - Bruno - Rashford + Greenwood/DVB + Ronaldo/Cavani
+External solution to solve and strenght cm in the summer.
Come hom to england boy = Jude Bellingham. Tried really hard last time. Dont give up. Save the big money for the boy in the summer. After 2 years with Dortmund. Playing in Bundesliga, Champion league and for England. I think its ready and time for the toughest challenge. The most intense league = premier league.
I think its time to let Pogba go. Pogba probably join PSG and Messi in the summer. But with Jude Belligham. I think it will be more conistence. And United will benefit of that. Jude Bellingham has reached a really high level. And with more years of highest level of football. He will reach the top level of a creative nr.8 in the future. Bellingham has everything to reach it.
Then with Bellingham. Bruno can go back to a free nr.10. In a 4411
And add Aurélien Tchouaméni from Monaco too. Replacement for Matic
Sancho - Bellingham - Tchouaméni/McTom - Rashford + Bruno + Greenwood/Ronaldo
A CM options with : Bellingham, McTom, Tchouaméni, Fred, Garner and Bruno in needed and crisis would be really strong and good.
+ New nr.8 = Bellingham
+ New nr.6 and allround cm = Aurélien Tchouaméni
United best XI hasnt been play yet and special give them time to gel together as a unit and collective. With this United squad. Definitely i will go for 442. To get the best out of this United squad. To benefit of it.
Sancho - McTom - Bruno - Rashford + Greenwood/DVB + Ronaldo/Cavani
+External solution to solve and strenght cm in the summer.
Come hom to england boy = Jude Bellingham. Tried really hard last time. Dont give up. Save the big money for the boy in the summer. After 2 years with Dortmund. Playing in Bundesliga, Champion league and for England. I think its ready and time for the toughest challenge. The most intense league = premier league.
I think its time to let Pogba go. Pogba probably join PSG and Messi in the summer. But with Jude Belligham. I think it will be more conistence. And United will benefit of that. Jude Bellingham has reached a really high level. And with more years of highest level of football. He will reach the top level of a creative nr.8 in the future. Bellingham has everything to reach it.
Then with Bellingham. Bruno can go back to a free nr.10. In a 4411
And add Aurélien Tchouaméni from Monaco too. Replacement for Matic
Sancho - Bellingham - Tchouaméni/McTom - Rashford + Bruno + Greenwood/Ronaldo
A CM options with : Bellingham, McTom, Tchouaméni, Fred, Garner and Bruno in needed and crisis would be really strong and good.
+ New nr.8 = Bellingham
+ New nr.6 and allround cm = Aurélien Tchouaméni
DVDB will be the CM!
BETAMAX will be the CM !
LaserDisc, while a bit unconventional could work in a two, along side someone with longer term potential.
Midfield/attack
We have to experiment more
—————Varane—————Shaw
Sancho—————Bruno————— Rashford
————————Greenwood—————————
Buy: two CMs and Haaland
Off load: Ronaldo, Cavani, DVB, Martial, Mata, Matic, Lingard, Fred, Pogba
Keep: McT, Elanga, Diallo (squad players).
We have to experiment more
—————Varane—————Shaw
Sancho—————Bruno————— Rashford
————————Greenwood—————————
Buy: two CMs and Haaland
Off load: Ronaldo, Cavani, DVB, Martial, Mata, Matic, Lingard, Fred, Pogba
Keep: McT, Elanga, Diallo (squad players).
Our midfield will get dominated by everyone except leeds.
Lets not shit ourselves, the quality isn't there. We've been conned.
Lets not shit ourselves, the quality isn't there. We've been conned.
Buy someone?
I so doubt anyone will arrive because of this summer spendings. I hope Martial & Lingard can get deals now elsewhere but with covid20 football clubs are looking at free market with intent even with cut price deals. Unfortunately I would see it beneficial for Martial to challenge for a place to play in world cup.
Apologies if this has already been said….
but isnt our main problem that we just have far too many 8’s and 10’s…. And no 6’s
people seem to think that Fred and Scott are DMs…. But they are both crap at the fundamentals (defensive positioning, showing for the ball, starting attacks, concentration)
but both have decent attributes as an 8…
scott - driving runner with the ball (as seen again tonight), eye for goal, decent shot from distance
Fred - decent clipped line breaking balls (as seen again tonight), great at the high press…
And although the attributes differ, all of Pogba, VDB, lingard and Bruno are clearly attacking mids too.
only Matic is a passable 6, and he is finished.
isn’t the solution just ship a few of these out, and get a couple of genuine 6’s in the squad?? Probs a starter, and cover…
but isnt our main problem that we just have far too many 8’s and 10’s…. And no 6’s
people seem to think that Fred and Scott are DMs…. But they are both crap at the fundamentals (defensive positioning, showing for the ball, starting attacks, concentration)
but both have decent attributes as an 8…
scott - driving runner with the ball (as seen again tonight), eye for goal, decent shot from distance
Fred - decent clipped line breaking balls (as seen again tonight), great at the high press…
And although the attributes differ, all of Pogba, VDB, lingard and Bruno are clearly attacking mids too.
only Matic is a passable 6, and he is finished.
isn’t the solution just ship a few of these out, and get a couple of genuine 6’s in the squad?? Probs a starter, and cover…
Get better midfield players.
This is completely wrong - Carrick was not an AM for Spurs, and he didn't convert to a DM because he was "up against" Scholes in our midfield. We bought him to pair with Scholes as one of two deep-lying midfielders in a loose 4-4-2, which is the exact same position he played for 2 seasons at Spurs.
Buy.
Can't we get anyone on loan ? Literally anyone we get can't be worse than the current lot.
Not according to SAF!
All the best teams have great midfielders, like City, Munich, Madrid etc. They are all similar as they have a dominant DM, a passer and a passer who can also dribble. These midfielders can deal with the press, work extremely hard and can deal with having the ball for long periods in the game. They have the creativity to break down the low block. For a midfield to work, it has to work in unison with the backline and forward line; that's the critical part that is very difficult to get right.
We, on the other hand, are way off that at the moment. We have to try to build a midfield along the same lines as the other successful team's.
The first thing we need to do is have a player that plays at the base of the midfield; examples of players that we should target are Rice, De Jong, Tchouaméni, Ndidi. These are the calibre of players we should be after. We would also like to bring back Garner and give him a go in this role to see if he has what it takes.
The dual role we need to fill is the passer/ dribble/playmaker role. Pogba could have filled this role if he had managed to deliver on his potential, but that boat has sailed. This position could be at the club already in Mct, Mejbri and Hansen (in 12 months).
The third role that needs to be filled in the position that Bruno plays; he needs to be far more compact in this position, similar to the way De Bruyne plays. Bruno is so creative but puts the team under too much pressure by giving the ball away.
The key to having the midfield working correctly is working hard and having positional intelligence !
The bottom line is to get the base of the team correct ala the DM role and build from there as we have players who can play the other midfield roles. Midfield is set up as DM and two no 8's.
We, on the other hand, are way off that at the moment. We have to try to build a midfield along the same lines as the other successful team's.
The first thing we need to do is have a player that plays at the base of the midfield; examples of players that we should target are Rice, De Jong, Tchouaméni, Ndidi. These are the calibre of players we should be after. We would also like to bring back Garner and give him a go in this role to see if he has what it takes.
The dual role we need to fill is the passer/ dribble/playmaker role. Pogba could have filled this role if he had managed to deliver on his potential, but that boat has sailed. This position could be at the club already in Mct, Mejbri and Hansen (in 12 months).
The third role that needs to be filled in the position that Bruno plays; he needs to be far more compact in this position, similar to the way De Bruyne plays. Bruno is so creative but puts the team under too much pressure by giving the ball away.
The key to having the midfield working correctly is working hard and having positional intelligence !
The bottom line is to get the base of the team correct ala the DM role and build from there as we have players who can play the other midfield roles. Midfield is set up as DM and two no 8's.
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If he is fit I would stick Jones in DM, when he started playing there was big talk of him moving to DM as a possible replacement for Keane, I mean could he be much worse at it than the 90 year old Matic or McFre, try it what's the worst that could happen, lose to a relegation club... oh ... wait ...
Swap Bellingham for Sancho mkhitarian kagawa Chelsea's German league players. There is a theme here. Who looks good in Germany does shit here.
I don't think it's a case of the German league being bad, but the level of even an average footballer in the Premier League right now is absolutely ridiculous, and the level of talent coming through similarly so. And it's not a zero sum game either - what's good for the Premier League ends up dragging the Championship up, which means their younger players are exposed to a higher level of football all the time, which improves them, which improves the level of players coming through at league one (through loans sometimes), and so on and so forth... Playing better players all the time makes players better, so if and when they move to other leagues it makes sense that they shine.
Short-term: If Dalot is starting RB could we play AWB as DM? Mobile, fast, great tackling - keep him within a set area with the tack of 'win back the ball and pass off to creative players'.
Could this work?
Could this work?
Primarily, I would look to replace Fred with a player exactly like Fred but with better control of the football.
I'd rather hang myself from the nearest tree than watch AWB try to control the ball and being put under pressure in the middle of the park.
Are you having a laugh? He can't pass, can't read a game, always caught out of position. Enough said.
Shouts like Wan-Bissaka or Jones - even Lindelof or Maguire! - in midfield are pretty common across our fanbase (not picking on you in particular here, and it's understandable why people are looking at left-field options considering pretty much all our actual starters have clear weaknesses), but the reality is that a team at United's level needs a very different skill-set in central midfield than just pace and tackling.
We dominate possession the vast majority of the time. That means the number one criterion for our midfielders is the ability to show for the ball, receive it under pressure, and move it quickly. That's where they all fall short - Fred's touch is too erratic, McTominay doesn't show for the ball, Matic is too slow and one-footed, and Pogba just takes far, far too long to decide what the hell he's doing with the ball. We need someone like Carrick who can pick the ball up in deep positions and get things moving.
The other part of the job is shutting down counter-attacks quickly when we do give the ball away, but even here Wan-Bissaka would be borderline useless because his positional sense is poor for a full-back - it'll only get worse when he's in the center of the pitch.
I completely get the sentiment behind it, my only thought was for a short-term solution without buying anyone who might then not fit, depending on the manager brought in.
I've been banging the drum for us to switch to a proper 4 3 3. In this west ham game we've shown more midfield control than we have done in ages and part of that is the fact bruno is playing a lot closer to mcfred giving them an extra option to pass to. Reducing the need for them to always try for a harder pass. Where we are lacking though is in the striker role. With bruno dropping deeper and elanga/mason staying wide, the striker has to drop into the ten to help build up the play, pretty much as a false 9. But that is just not Ronaldo or cavani's game as their link up play/creative play is not that great. Martial is the only striker we have who can play that role (maybe mason as well), but its a shame his head is gone.
All in all I reckon if we had a fit and firing CF that could play the false 9 role we would step up a few levels.
All in all I reckon if we had a fit and firing CF that could play the false 9 role we would step up a few levels.
https://barcafutbol.substack.com/p/the-modern-pivot-5-players-who-could
Found this really interesting analysis about Barcelona's search for the next Busquets for their play style.
Found this really interesting analysis about Barcelona's search for the next Busquets for their play style.
First of all, United need a class manager they are sure to stick to for a few years. Look at how Liverpool built their squad when Klopp initially arrived.
Its very tough and weird to buy players for a particular manager and the next thing you know he's sacked and the new guy doesn't really rate that signing. There! Back to square 1 again!!
With a proper managerial plan, it can be decided whether to shop for midfielders in a 4 3 3 or a 4 2 3 1. Both these formations generally require different profiles of midfielders.
Like Donny is more of a 4 3 3 kinda midfielder. Tough to fit him in a 4 2 3 1 United formation.
The clarity and long term planning needs to be there and in sync with the squad building.
Look at Bayern and how they came up with the double pivot of Kimmich and Goretzka. Now they're set for years in that department.
Find it tough to believe United still don't have a proper holding midfielder. Not counting Matic for obvious reasons but that profile of player is essential.
Its very tough and weird to buy players for a particular manager and the next thing you know he's sacked and the new guy doesn't really rate that signing. There! Back to square 1 again!!
With a proper managerial plan, it can be decided whether to shop for midfielders in a 4 3 3 or a 4 2 3 1. Both these formations generally require different profiles of midfielders.
Like Donny is more of a 4 3 3 kinda midfielder. Tough to fit him in a 4 2 3 1 United formation.
The clarity and long term planning needs to be there and in sync with the squad building.
Look at Bayern and how they came up with the double pivot of Kimmich and Goretzka. Now they're set for years in that department.
Find it tough to believe United still don't have a proper holding midfielder. Not counting Matic for obvious reasons but that profile of player is essential.
The solution begins with recognizing we have a problem in midfield. It’s in no way clear that club management recognize we have a problem in midfield. More than anything Fred and McTominay are adored by club management.
True, it’s likely that either or both of and Matic will not be back next season and one would expect management to account for that, but if Fred and McTominay remain in the eyes of management as the outstanding midfielders very few outside of club management believe them to be, we’re bringing in squad players at best.
We’ve had at least two seasons to strengthen our midfield and all we did was bring in Donny, who was never given a proper chance. Whether one believes Donny is shite or is brilliant, it’s clear that club management have thought so highly of Fred and McTominay that the club see no real need to do anything other than provide them cover.
True, it’s likely that either or both of and Matic will not be back next season and one would expect management to account for that, but if Fred and McTominay remain in the eyes of management as the outstanding midfielders very few outside of club management believe them to be, we’re bringing in squad players at best.
We’ve had at least two seasons to strengthen our midfield and all we did was bring in Donny, who was never given a proper chance. Whether one believes Donny is shite or is brilliant, it’s clear that club management have thought so highly of Fred and McTominay that the club see no real need to do anything other than provide them cover.
These will go down well. We picked over 100 RBs according to Woodward before we picked AWB as the best out there
These will go down well. We picked over 100 RBs according to Woodward before we picked AWB as the best out there
Position = RB && Pace > 16 && Acceleration > 16 && Dribbling > 14 && Crossing > 14.
How hard can it be?
Let's delve deep into this topic on this thread.. here are some of the factor that according to me is the problem right now regardless of the position.
1) Before the arrival of Bruno, we struggled to have a decent midfield because the quality differed and there was no synergy between Herrera, Pogba, Matic, Fellaini and the lot like Perriera, Fred etc
2) Since the arrival of Bruno, our midfield has struggled even further because he's played as a number 10 and sometimes as an 8 (more recently) but regardless of where his position according the coach is, he drifts all over the place and *NEVER* holds his position.
3) Matic is old, Fred makes a lot of mistakes and Mctominay is getting better but his passing range is limited.
4) Pogba likes to control the midfield. He's frustrated because he holds his position wonderfully well regardless of where you put him but his midfield partners are shambolic. They just cannot keep possession or drive forward with the ball let alone beat players.
5) When we get up the opponent half and push up, our midfielder don't make impact in or around the box. They just stand and look around for forwards to make something happen.
6) Bruno is a wonderful playmaker but he is the reason we keep passing from on winger to the other. If you watch carefully, it is always Maguire to Shaw to Sancho, back to Shaw, back to Maguire, to Varane, to Dalot who either drives with the ball or goes back to Varane and back to Maguire and the process is repeated.
7) Bruno goes in between Dalot and Rashford or Shaw and Sancho leaving a big hole in the middle of the pitch which literally kills our play through the middle.
8) We need our players to trust each other to hold their positions and pass bravely. Only when they hold their positions will all the players know and learn how each other plays.
9) Right now it is all haphazard and clumsy. We just take the game by the flow and try to make something out of it without actually working on certain things in training. I'm sure the coaching staff don't talk to all the players and train them according to a system.
10) Ralf Rangnick is a senior amongst the coaches around the world, he must be able to get them to listen to him. He needs to get Maguire, Mctominay, Shaw, Bruno and Ronaldo in line.
What do you guys think about my points?
1) Before the arrival of Bruno, we struggled to have a decent midfield because the quality differed and there was no synergy between Herrera, Pogba, Matic, Fellaini and the lot like Perriera, Fred etc
2) Since the arrival of Bruno, our midfield has struggled even further because he's played as a number 10 and sometimes as an 8 (more recently) but regardless of where his position according the coach is, he drifts all over the place and *NEVER* holds his position.
3) Matic is old, Fred makes a lot of mistakes and Mctominay is getting better but his passing range is limited.
4) Pogba likes to control the midfield. He's frustrated because he holds his position wonderfully well regardless of where you put him but his midfield partners are shambolic. They just cannot keep possession or drive forward with the ball let alone beat players.
5) When we get up the opponent half and push up, our midfielder don't make impact in or around the box. They just stand and look around for forwards to make something happen.
6) Bruno is a wonderful playmaker but he is the reason we keep passing from on winger to the other. If you watch carefully, it is always Maguire to Shaw to Sancho, back to Shaw, back to Maguire, to Varane, to Dalot who either drives with the ball or goes back to Varane and back to Maguire and the process is repeated.
7) Bruno goes in between Dalot and Rashford or Shaw and Sancho leaving a big hole in the middle of the pitch which literally kills our play through the middle.
8) We need our players to trust each other to hold their positions and pass bravely. Only when they hold their positions will all the players know and learn how each other plays.
9) Right now it is all haphazard and clumsy. We just take the game by the flow and try to make something out of it without actually working on certain things in training. I'm sure the coaching staff don't talk to all the players and train them according to a system.
10) Ralf Rangnick is a senior amongst the coaches around the world, he must be able to get them to listen to him. He needs to get Maguire, Mctominay, Shaw, Bruno and Ronaldo in line.
What do you guys think about my points?
I think your midfield is made a scapegoat, could you improve on McFred sure, but the reason you have dropped points in the last 2 games is an inhabiting to finish and switching off at halftime.
Fred is shit and Matic is old but the rest is good. At least good enough to beat Villa and Boro. There is something other that is bothering our squad.
You could make a case for all of them - the midfield, the defence, the forwards. Only one that can stand up tall from this season is De Gea.
Mctominay had 38 passes last night, for a player who plays as a DM really those passing stats need to be higher than that against Burnley and teams of their ilk.
If this was Rodri and Fabinho would have had 50+ passes and made better decisions with those passes, its not Mctominays fault as he is all we have but the neglect of midfield areas if well publicised.
Until we remedy the midfield part of our game to dominate more and rotate the ball faster and more accurately we will see the same issues we do now.
If this was Rodri and Fabinho would have had 50+ passes and made better decisions with those passes, its not Mctominays fault as he is all we have but the neglect of midfield areas if well publicised.
Until we remedy the midfield part of our game to dominate more and rotate the ball faster and more accurately we will see the same issues we do now.