Henderson should be our #1

[Jezpeza]

What the feck are you on about? Henderson is being talked about because he's already at the club. And he's second choice based on appearances. And he's proven his ability in the Premier League for Sheff Utd.

No player should ever be automatic first choice just because they're Spanish. Your xenophobic angle doesn't hold water.

what are you on about? He's an okay keeper who is proven at a lower pl club and that will be his level. Decent number 2, wouldnt want him as number one he is evidently a level or two below the very best goalkeepers.

and xenophobic? Wtf are you talking about?

 

[Dante]

what are you on about? He's an okay keeper who is proven at a lower pl club and that will be his level. Decent number 2, wouldnt want him as number one he is evidently a level or two below the very best goalkeepers.

and xenophobic? Wtf are you talking about?

Why bring nationality into it? It's irrelevant unless you're a bigot.

 

[Jezpeza]

Why bring nationality into it? It's irrelevant unless you're a bigot.

i’m english you spanner. It is relevant - we always want to overhype young english players and even more so our own academy graduates. He isnt that good, people just went crazy and valued him at silly money after one season with sheffield united and they are in love with the idea of him being ‘englands next number 1’. Other players fall into this category - Tuanzabe for instance. We just saw arsenal pay £55m for Ben White because of this sort of hype for goodness sake.

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

Henderson is equally weak on crosses

Weak in the air, no better at catching/punching than De Gea

I'm actually quite curious to see what you're basing this on, because a quick check of the "crosses stopped percentage" on FBRef puts De Gea in the bottom 12% of keepers in the top 5 leagues in the past year, while Henderson is in the top 2%. And this backs up what I thought was quite apparent from the games they both played last season: Henderson is way, way better at dealing with crosses.

Some serious underrating of Henderson in this topic. I think he was quite unlucky to get Covid going into the season or he would have still have been our number 1. I'd still pick him - the fact that multiple people in this thread are pointing to De Gea finally growing a pair and coming out to catch 3 crosses in the Norwich game as some sort of remarkable improvement speaks volumes about just how big a liability he can be.

 

[JB7]

Why bring nationality into it? It's irrelevant unless you're a bigot.

Come on mate you've been on this forum long enough to know that any player eligible for the English national team is automatically shite and massively overrated. Especially if they've come through our academy.

 

[Dante]

i’m english you spanner. It is relevant - we always want to overhype young english players and even more so our own academy graduates. He isnt that good, people just went crazy and valued him at silly money after one season with sheffield united and they are in love with the idea of him being ‘englands next number 1’. Other players fall into this category - Tuanzabe for instance. We just saw arsenal pay £55m for Ben White because of this sort of hype for goodness sake.

Why has Dalot taken AWB's spot in the lineup then?

AWB is English and Dalot isn't good enough for a top team.

Maybe nationality is irrelevant and it's just about players to fit the system? Have you considered that instead of your kneejerk bigotry?

 

[Jezpeza]

Why has Dalot taken AWB's spot in the lineup then?

AWB is English and Dalot isn't good enough for a top team.

Maybe nationality is irrelevant and it's just about players to fit the system? Have you considered that instead of your kneejerk bigotry?

ooh lets change the narrative to bigotry from xenophobia. Probably the fact AWB has been in appalling form and was injured for norwich. Not going to change the fact Henderson just isnt that good is it?

 

[Dante]

ooh lets change the narrative to bigotry from xenophobia. Probably the fact AWB has been in appalling form and was injured for norwich. Not going to change the fact Henderson just isnt that good is it?

Dalot isn't that good either. But he fits the 4-2-2-2 better than AWB. But nobody's calling him overhyped because he's Portuguese, or struggling to understand how he fits in for footballing reasons.

Henderson might not be world class either. But he's a solid PL 'keeper. And he's well suited to playing behind a high line and at claiming crosses in a side that will leave lots of space on the flanks. That might become important for United. Hence the current discussion in this thread.

You've boiled this down to nationality instead of football. That's the problem.

 

[Jezpeza]

Dalot isn't that good either. But he fits the 4-2-2-2 better than AWB. But nobody's calling him overhyped because he's Portuguese, or struggling to understand how he fits in for footballing reasons.

Henderson might not be world class either. But he's a solid PL 'keeper. And he's well suited to playing behind a high line and at claiming crosses in a side that will leave lots of space on the flanks. That might become important for United. Hence the current discussion in this thread.

You've boiled this down to nationality instead of football. That's the problem.

i think you just have a bit of a henderson fetish and i said something mean about him which triggered your strange accusation of me being a xenophobe against the english despite being english. Bit of an egg on face moment so you should just move on rather than sidestep from xenephobe to bigot to ‘tactical reasons’

 

[sullydnl]

It's about players to fit systems, not star names to fit lineups.

What we're dealing with is a manager wants to play a narrow 4-2-2-2 and a high defensive line.

That means a top class 1-v-1 fullback might no longer be as suitable as a mediocre wingback. Shit happens. Win for Dalot.

It also means United are going to need a 'keeper who's good at sweeping up behind centrebacks who are pushing up. And it means we need a 'keeper who's good at claiming crosses because opposition teams are going to start concentrating their attacks down our flanks since that's where we'll be lacking numbers from now on. On paper at least, this could feasibly be a win for Henderson. Even though DDG doesn't deserve to be dropped on form, it's a discussion that's worth having because it's certainly not clear cut in light of the new team setup.

It would make we wonder why Henderson isn't getting a chance.

I mean Rangnick presumably knows the requirements of that system as well as anyone else and we know he's already told De Gea he'll have to sweep behind the high line more. And with Henderson having featured a fair bit last season, it's not like using him a bit more would be super controversial. On paper he should be interested in at least taking a look at Henderson, yet that doesn't seem to be the case given the links away.

I know there were stories that Henderson's attitude wasn't perfect, plus he did have Covid at the start of the season, so I wonder if there are other factors putting us off him slightly. Or maybe he's just decided to go already.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I'm actually quite curious to see what you're basing this on, because a quick check of the "crosses stopped percentage" on FBRef puts De Gea in the bottom 12% of keepers in the top 5 leagues in the past year, while Henderson is in the top 2%. And this backs up what I thought was quite apparent from the games they both played last season: Henderson is way, way better at dealing with crosses.

Some serious underrating of Henderson in this topic. I think he was quite unlucky to get Covid going into the season or he would have still have been our number 1. I'd still pick him - the fact that multiple people in this thread are pointing to De Gea finally growing a pair and coming out to catch 3 crosses in the Norwich game as some sort of remarkable improvement speaks volumes about just how big a liability he can be.

He won’t answer because they keep ignoring the stats as is really hinders the argument for DDG. I get if people don’t rate Henderson and have reasons for it, the reason they’ve given however are actually his strength so I’ve no idea how they’re assessing a football game

We also have data to directly compare them from the same season behind the exact same team.

 

[meno Agenti]

Faulty Fax machine was the 12th man on the pitch tonight

Faulty Fax Machine has always been ridiculously incredible. Hendo is good but doesn't come close to DDG super human standards.

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

I get if people don’t rate Henderson and have reasons for it, the reason they’ve given however are actually his strength so I’ve no idea how they’re assessing a football game

Yeah, I don't want to over-simplify and act like Henderson is an established world class keeper, but some of the over-the-top reactions here give me the impression a lot of folks don't actually remember how he performed last season apart from the big mistakes against Liverpool and Sheff United (and the dropped cross against Burnley - that it's worth noting didn't actually cost us). Sure, those were bad, but our defence looked more comfortable with him in the team.

I'm glad De Gea's shot-stopping has been great this season because it means he's not a complete liability anymore. I still don't trust him - Rangnick seems to at this point, and I hope he's right, but I'm not writing off the topic statement yet.

 

[lsd]

I don't know if Henderson should be our #1, but I'd like to see him given a chance. I'd like to see us rotate the keepers. De Gea makes some great saves that the Deaner could only dream of making, but I have a feeling we will concede less with Henderson in goal. From what I've seen of the two, Henderson seems like someone who can be a great goal keeper, while De Gea is a goal keeper who makes great saves. There's a huge difference...

He had his chance last season for a long run of games and was not exactly impressive.

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

He had his chance last season for a long run of games and was not exactly impressive.

We had a better defensive record and picked up (way) more points per game with Henderson in goal last season.

 

[Oranges038]

He had his chance last season for a long run of games and was not exactly impressive.

Yeah I see what you mean. When he played last year, he conceded less goals per game, conceded less chances per game, he had a higher save %, kept the same amount of clean sheets and won 1 less game in 10 less games.

Stats are all below. Henderson was better in every way aside from PsxG, which means feck all anyway if your keeper is conceding more goals and chances in the first place.

https://fbref.com/en/squads/19538871/2020-2021/all_comps/Manchester-United-Stats-All-Competitions

Spoiler

Player

Nation

Pos

Age

MP

Starts

Min

90s

GA

GA90

SoTA

Saves

Save%

W

D

L

CS

CS%

PKatt

PKA

PKsv

PKm

Save%

David de Gea

es ESP

GK

29​

36​

36​

3,225​

35.8​

46​

1.28​

126​

88​

67.5​

18​

10​

8​

12​

33.3​

5​

5​

0​

0​

0​

Dean Henderson

eng ENG

GK

23​

26​

25​

2,325​

25.8​

22​

0.85​

90​

68​

75.6​

17​

4​

4​

12​

48​

1​

0​

0​

1​

0

Goals

Expected

Launched

Passes

Goal Kicks

Crosses

Sweeper

Player

Nation

Pos

Age

90s

GA

PKA

FK

CK

OG

PSxG

PSxG/SoT

PSxG+/-

/90

Cmp

Att

Cmp%

Att

Thr

Launch%

AvgLen

Att

Launch%

AvgLen

Opp

Stp

Stp%

#OPA

#OPA/90

AvgDist

Matches

David de Gea

es ESP

GK

29​

36​

46​

5​

2​

6​

4​

43.5​

0.31​

1.5​

0​

144​

321​

44.9​

602​

118​

37.7​

34.7​

256​

36.7​

34​

267​

12​

4.5​

15​

0.42​

14.1​

Matches

Dean Henderson

eng ENG

GK

23​

26​

22​

0​

0​

5​

0​

15​

0.24​

0​

0​

60​

158​

38​

332​

88​

35.8​

35.9​

123​

31.7​

33.1​

137​

13​

9.5​

18​

1.03​

14.7​

Matches

 

[Bole Top]

simply embarrassing thread. Dean is nowhere near good enough to be number 1 here and will never be. De Gea's potential was obvious to anyone even at very young age, which is why he was starting for Atletico and United at the age of 20-21. Henderson will turn 25 soon with one season at Sheffield United as his career highlight. he will never be number 1 at a club of similar size. he was never wanted by the biggest clubs like De Gea was in his younger years. he most likely won't displace Pickford either, at least not very soon. there's little between Romero and him and because of that, as long as De Gea is in current form, no one should really care whether he's at club or not.

 

[MadDogg]

I'm actually quite curious to see what you're basing this on, because a quick check of the "crosses stopped percentage" on FBRef puts De Gea in the bottom 12% of keepers in the top 5 leagues in the past year, while Henderson is in the top 2%. And this backs up what I thought was quite apparent from the games they both played last season: Henderson is way, way better at dealing with crosses.

Henderson does seem to struggle a bit during set pieces, and I think some people have mixed that up with crosses in general. He's obviously far better than De Gea at dealing with crosses in live play. It's just dealing with set pieces where he had a few issues last season. Of course, De Gea has always had issues with set pieces as well.

 

[Jezpeza]

simply embarrassing thread. Dean is nowhere near good enough to be number 1 here and will never be. De Gea's potential was obvious to anyone even at very young age, which is why he was starting for Atletico and United at the age of 20-21. Henderson will turn 25 soon with one season at Sheffield United as his career highlight. he will never be number 1 at a club of similar size. he was never wanted by the biggest clubs like De Gea was in his younger years. he most likely won't displace Pickford either, at least not very soon. there's little between Romero and him and because of that, as long as De Gea is in current form, no one should really care whether he's at club or not.

+1

 

[sugar_kane]

Ole bringing him back to rival De Gea was a misstep, he would have been better with someone like Heaton - someone who could easily step in and keep the pressure on but who already has a fine career behind them, not someone just starting out and needing game time.

Was saying to someone earlier today I don't think it was Ole's coaching which got him sacked but rather the fact he had pissed off half the dressing room through a lack of squad rotation, alienating not just the players affected but their close friends in the first team.

I think Ole was underrated as a manager in his first couple of years and wanted him to succeed, but I think he was a bit out of order the way he kept players around as a way to get better performances out of the first team.

I won't be too worried if Henderson leaves though, seems decent but don't think he's the level United should be aiming for. Maybe one day he will be at that level, but he isn't right now and we don't need someone else learning on the job in a critical position.

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

Dean is nowhere near good enough to be number 1 here and will never be. De Gea's potential was obvious to anyone even at very young age, which is why he was starting for Atletico and United at the age of 20-21. Henderson will turn 25 soon with one season at Sheffield United as his career highlight. he will never be number 1 at a club of similar size. he was never wanted by the biggest clubs like De Gea was in his younger years

This is even stranger than the "as bad as De Gea at crosses" narrative that we've already established flies in the face of the stats.

What on earth does De Gea's potential at the age of 21 have to do with anything? Even ignoring the fact that players develop at different rates (Alisson and Ederson are the two best keepers in the league and had barely played a few dozen games at senior level when they were 21), the comparison in this thread is between De Gea at 30/31 and Henderson at 23/24.

If you're going to try and argue one of De Gea and Henderson is "nowhere near" good enough to take the other's place, it would be helpful to at least try to refute arguments with numbers based on very recent evidence of both of them playing in the same team. See Oranges038's post above for reference.

 

[berbatrick]

It would make we wonder why Henderson isn't getting a chance.

I mean Rangnick presumably knows the requirements of that system as well as anyone else and we know he's already told De Gea he'll have to sweep behind the high line more. And with Henderson having featured a fair bit last season, it's not like using him a bit more would be super controversial. On paper he should be interested in at least taking a look at Henderson, yet that doesn't seem to be the case given the links away.

I know there were stories that Henderson's attitude wasn't perfect, plus he did have Covid at the start of the season, so I wonder if there are other factors putting us off him slightly. Or maybe he's just decided to go already.

Maybe he trusts DDG to start sweeping?
I don't think he's ever going to dominate crosses and corners. But he's had phases in his career when he has done limited work as a sweeper, and when he's been better with distribution - 2 of his 3 big criticisms.

 

[Varane around town]

I wouldn't be that bothered if Henderson went.

I really respect and belief in his own ability. However, I don't think he's anywhere near as good as he thinks he is. He got a really really good chance last season and he wasn't that impressive, infact he guy gives me serious Pickford vibes. So with DDG regaining his form... Henderson won't be our no.1 anytime soon.

 

[lsd]

Yeah I see what you mean. When he played last year, he conceded less goals per game, conceded less chances per game, he had a higher save %, kept the same amount of clean sheets and won 1 less game in 10 less games.

Stats are all below. Henderson was better in every way aside from PsxG, which means feck all anyway if your keeper is conceding more goals and chances in the first place.

https://fbref.com/en/squads/19538871/2020-2021/all_comps/Manchester-United-Stats-All-Competitions

Spoiler

Player

Nation

Pos

Age

MP

Starts

Min

90s

GA

GA90

SoTA

Saves

Save%

W

D

L

CS

CS%

PKatt

PKA

PKsv

PKm

Save%

David de Gea

es ESP

GK

29​

36​

36​

3,225​

35.8​

46​

1.28​

126​

88​

67.5​

18​

10​

8​

12​

33.3​

5​

5​

0​

0​

0​

Dean Henderson

eng ENG

GK

23​

26​

25​

2,325​

25.8​

22​

0.85​

90​

68​

75.6​

17​

4​

4​

12​

48​

1​

0​

0​

1​

0

Goals

Expected

Launched

Passes

Goal Kicks

Crosses

Sweeper

Player

Nation

Pos

Age

90s

GA

PKA

FK

CK

OG

PSxG

PSxG/SoT

PSxG+/-

/90

Cmp

Att

Cmp%

Att

Thr

Launch%

AvgLen

Att

Launch%

AvgLen

Opp

Stp

Stp%

#OPA

#OPA/90

AvgDist

Matches

David de Gea

es ESP

GK

29​

36​

46​

5​

2​

6​

4​

43.5​

0.31​

1.5​

0​

144​

321​

44.9​

602​

118​

37.7​

34.7​

256​

36.7​

34​

267​

12​

4.5​

15​

0.42​

14.1​

Matches

Dean Henderson

eng ENG

GK

23​

26​

22​

0​

0​

5​

0​

15​

0.24​

0​

0​

60​

158​

38​

332​

88​

35.8​

35.9​

123​

31.7​

33.1​

137​

13​

9.5​

18​

1.03​

14.7​

Matches

He never looked a number one goalkeeper and the goals were at times horrific. Beaten by a header which went straight over his head for one. His positioning was tragic and you never felt he was going to bail us out with a wonder save.

However feel free to continue with this weird myth of how him saying he is confident makes the team more secure with him behind him as thankfully he will never ever be our long term number one and will most likely be gone pretty soon

 

[Oranges038]

He never looked a number one goalkeeper and the goals were at times horrific. Beaten by a header which went straight over his head for one. His positioning was tragic and you never felt he was going to bail us out with a wonder save.

However feel free to continue with this weird myth of how him saying he is confident makes the team more secure with him behind him as thankfully he will never ever be our long term number one and will most likely be gone pretty soon

Seriously go down that route, have a look at De Gea's performance for the last 3 years he was practically throwing them in. Barcelona, Everton plus many more besides. Even this season, where he's apparently been great, he doesn't sweep or come for high balls, concedes 1.5 goals a game. He gets beat at his near post too much, there was at least 2 goals where he just stood on his line and could have come out for the ball. Then you have the Arsenal goal, which is has to the worst goal any keeper has ever conceded in the league.

It's not a myth when the team conceded less chances and less goals and won more games when Henderson played. He's just a better fit for the team as a whole, all the stats from last season proved that.

Is Simon a better keeper than DDG? Not in the traditional sense, but he's a better fit for how Spain play that's why he plays and DDG doesn't.

 

[friendlytramp]

He’s not very good. Needs to move on

 

[lex talionis]

The title of this thread keeps cracking me up every time I come across it.

 

[Johnson Yip]

You don't know this for certain. Solskjaer himself seemed very undecided and it seems he was stringing Henderson along IMO.

De Gea was one of the earliest back to preseason training. He's been on a mission to keep his spot and he's responded to the Henderson challenge with aplomb

That's true and full credit to DDG for his 'desire' to fight for the spot.

 

[KetilOwren88]

I like Henderson with his desire, ambitions and confidence. He seems to have the right personality to be a United no1, but as it stands I feel he is in the Tim Howard, Ben Foster etc category. A good goalkeeper, just not a Man Utd first choice goalie.

De Gea for all his flaws, has found some of his lost mojo and might be a match winner with his current form. Ragnick’s high line might be a concern, and he probably needs to adapt and improve in that area to keep his spot.

 

[AussieDevil]

Sell him with a buy back clause.

25 million with a 35 million buy back is a better deal for us than selling him for 30 million.

A few clubs will be in for him, let him go and prove himself and make sure we have first dibs if he turns out good enough.

 

[NewYorkRed]

Bad example IMO. Shot-stopping is by far the most important trait in a keeper, tackling is not even the most important (let alone by far) trait for a RB. Positioning for example is more important than tackling when it comes to defending. AWB is actually terrible at defending outside of his tackling and 1 to 1 defending. And when it comes to non-defending part of the game, he is dogshit.

I think a more comparable example is Ronaldo being a WC striker because of his goal-scoring ability.

It also does not help that Henderson is actually worse than De Gea at passing, is probably not better in crosses (attempts more, but also makes mistakes attempting them) and is just slightly better at sweeping. There could have been an argument for him to start over De Gea if he was actually good at those three things (like Dalot is at passing, attacking), but he is not. He is plain average at it.

Can’t figure out how to bold certain parts of another user’s comments on the caf yet, but that first bit about AWB being shit at defending and shot stopping still being the most important part of keeping is spot on.

Another poster made fun of me for saying this, and of course college football (soccer not our version) is not the biggest deal, but I played all of highschool and college as a RB, for Jay Martin no (you can google Jay Martin Soccer, amazing coach and has met SAF plenty of times). If i played RB the way that AWB did, I would’ve been cut 100%. And if I was given the choice to play infront of an excellent shot stopper or someone slightly better with his feet, I’m going with the former everyday of the week and twice on Sundays.

 

[SAFMUTD]

I respect him for coming back to fight for his place, at the end of last season with De Gea's injury he made a good impression and it seemed he had taken the number 1 place.

This season it's been clear that that's not the case, De Gea is clearly the starter so it's only natural that he wants out.

We should sell him with a rebut clause, no need to have him rotting on the bench with huge wages and stalling his development.

 

[::sonny::]

He would be a stereotypical Everton Gk

Sell him, and you will see De Gea performance go down like the stock market

 

[SadlerMUFC]

He had his chance last season for a long run of games and was not exactly impressive.

He did enough last year that he was going to be our #1 this year if not for covid. De Gea makes some unbelievable saves, but he's depended on his natural ability for far too long and has never mastered the basics of the position. If he had, he wouldn't have to make a lot of the saves he makes, or concede a lot of the goals he concedes. Sure, there may be some goals that Henderson lets in that some may say "De Gea would have saved that", but I'm fully convinced that we would concede less with Henderson in goal.

 

[Lemon Moon]

All good things come to those who wait.

 

[Red Dreams]

De Gea has been Banks like this season.
But lets not forget the time he has been pretty awful and there were reports of us trying to pay off his contract.
He is on very high wages and his contract expires in 2023. It would be foolish to renew that contract when we have the obvious replacement available.
I think Henderson should be our Number 1.
Sell De Gea end of the season for decent money.

 

[Andycoleno9]

De Gea has been Banks like this season.
But lets not forget the time he has been pretty awful and there were reports of us trying to pay off his contract.
He is on very high wages and his contract expires in 2023. It would be foolish to renew that contract when we have the obvious replacement available.
I think Henderson should be our Number 1.
Sell De Gea end of the season for decent money.

Henderson wouldn't saved half of today's shots

 

[rimaldo]

all our players seem to perform better when there is competition for their place. i think we should appoint a shadow manager to keep ralf on his toes.

 

[Statue of Limitations]

DDG is playing at God tier level this season.

Not a slight on Dean that he is unpickable now.

 

[Litch]

DDG is the best shot stopper I've seen but there are more things to being a goalkeeper than that. Is he best GK in the league, probably not but why are the GK's better than him, playing for the teams that conceded less goals yet the make less saves? DDG doesn't command his box so we are always vulnerable to set pieces, he doesn't come of his line and starting position is so deep, we are screwed with the ball over the top. He's no way brave enough and that's why he's poor at set pieces and one on ones. Yes Fred stepped on his heel but have you ever seen a GK turn his back on the goal?
When we be worse if he hadn't been in net, maybe we wouldn't be in this position in the first place?