Has political correctness actually gone mad?

As with anything, the topic of cultural appropriation can be taken out of context.

At it's core it's something which happens all the time.

Nobody is saying that people can't learn from cultures, adapt or involve themselves in new cultures - that's cultural assimilation, there's a mutual respect there and often times both sides learn new things.

Cultural appropriation is when you factor in the power dynamic, and as with anything context matters.
You can pick and choose which parts of a culture you enjoy (Native Indian clothing, dreadlocks, sarees etc) but still remain prejudiced against it's people and remain uneducated on the cultural norms behind whichever aspect of the culture you enjoy.
And usually when it's white people who do it, it usually becomes a positive trend and they're seen as innovative/cool/edgy but when the original people do the same things, the negative connotations are still attached.

It's not saying that you, individually are a bad person for wearing a costume. But if you don't care to learn about the culture it came from, you don't have the right to trivialise the feelings of the people who's culture your costume is imitating.

There's much more to be said of it if you want to learn about it, but I guess whole generalisations are easier.
 
vi1lain said:
As with anything, the topic of cultural appropriation can be taken out of context.

At it's core it's something which happens all the time.

Nobody is saying that people can't learn from cultures, adapt or involve themselves in new cultures - that's cultural assimilation, there's a mutual respect there and often times both sides learn new things.

Cultural appropriation is when you factor in the power dynamic, and as with anything context matters.
You can pick and choose which parts of a culture you enjoy (Native Indian clothing, dreadlocks, sarees etc) but still remain prejudiced against it's people and remain uneducated on the cultural norms behind whichever aspect of the culture you enjoy.
And usually when it's white people who do it, it usually becomes a positive trend and they're seen as innovative/cool/edgy but when the original people do the same things, the negative connotations are still attached.

It's not saying that you, individually are a bad person for wearing a costume. But if you don't care to learn about the culture it came from, you don't have the right to trivialise the feelings of the people who's culture your costume is imitating.

There's much more to be said of it if you want to learn about it, but I guess whole generalisations are easier.
Click to expand...

So what are the negative kinds of cultural appropriation beyond going to a fancy dressed party as a Native American or 'Bros and Hos' parties?

The power dynamic means that an Englishman has no right to be offended by say Austin Powers's horrible teeth?

edit: just read that Mike Myers is a British citizen but I mean that kind of depiction.
 
Last edited:
Classical Mechanic said:
So what are the negative kinds of cultural appropriation beyond going to a fancy dress party as a Native American or 'Bros and Hos' parties?
Click to expand...

Do you want specific examples? This will primarily be limited to celebrities/pop culture because that's just the type of world we live in.

The examples aren't really the issue, like I said nobody is a bad person for wearing a costume, and I doubt someone would intentionally buy a Sari with the intention of insulting Indians for example.
 
vi1lain said:
Do you want specific examples? This will primarily be limited to celebrities/pop culture because that's just the type of world we live in.

The examples aren't really the issue, like I said nobody is a bad person for wearing a costume, and I doubt someone would intentionally buy a Sari with the intention of insulting Indians for example.
Click to expand...

It all seems kind of vague TBH.
 
If only I had known this earlier I would have protest against this madness. Millions of racists each year are visiting the Oktoberfest to insult my cultural heritage. Seeing also those pesky foreigners wearing traditional Bavarian clothing (or the cheap imitation of it) really hurts my feelings. :(
 
Olly said:
A couple of months ago I saw an Indian person saying how a foreign person wearing a sari was seen a good thing and something that they're proud of, and a non-Indian person replied telling them how they were wrong and uneducated :lol:

Edit: Here it is - http://culturalappropriationon.tumblr.com/post/129596258928/poppypicklesticks-elaichi-cha-missmegami
Click to expand...
Same thing in the part of Africa, I'm from. We do appreciate it when foreigners wear our attires.
Can't get my head round why it would be offensive.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
It all seems kind of vague TBH.
Click to expand...

Just seen your edit now,

That particular example has more to do with stereotypes than a culture.
Unless British culture means having bad teeth, dodgy accents & generally being perverted - even then, Austin Powers still manages to be the hero, despite being depicted in a satirical manner.

It's vague of course, and it differs from person to person.
I personally don't have any issue with sharing cultural norms from my background, or learning about others' cultural norms.

But the over simplification that because it doesn't affect a select few individuals - particularly online, and therefore it's not offensive is ridiculous.
 
When i was a kid i had one of those Fort Apache sets, with the cowboys and Indians (revised to Native Americans a few decades on). As a Brit, was it a double cultural appropriation?
 
Classical Mechanic said:
This one made me chuckle

http://hyperallergic.com/223047/the...o-protests-at-the-boston-museum-of-fine-arts/

They must have missed the part in recent history when Japan sought to take over the world and realise their racial superiority.

@vi1lain

I suppose the question is if the offended are just a very vocal minority or not, how 'real' is the problem.
Click to expand...

If the offended are the very people that come from the culture, how is it fair to diminish what they feel?

An example -
Kylie Jenner got dreadlocks about a year or so ago - and all the fashion magazines praised her "new" "edgy" "zany" look.
Zendaya (black/mixed race actress) also got dreadlocks not so long afterwards - those same fashion magazines said she looked like smelled like weed.

Now, as a black person that just reiterates that when someone who isn't black takes on a part of black culture - it's not seen negatively, in fact it can be cool.
Meanwhile black people who do the same, the negative connotations perpetuate, and they continue to be treated as such.
It shows a love for the culture (which is great & should be continued - but that's cultural assimilation, or appreciation) but the prejudices that the particular culture faces, continue. (like Paul Mooney on the Chappelle show said "everybody wants to be N word but nobody wants to be a N word")
There are dozens of examples for - bantu knots, cornrows durags, afro's, box braids etc. and that's just black hairstyles.

You could argue (I assume you're a white male) that this is stupid & not a 'real' problem. Sure, but as a black female, I could tell you that this isn't new, and it affects dozens of men & women I know who have their hairstyles in a certain way - they're seen as lazy, dirty, unprofessional etc. Now Kylie Jenner gets to take her dreadlocks out whenever she pleases, but not everybody has that luxury and will continue to live with the stigma.

They may not be vocal about it online, but are they not right to feel aggrieved? Or is it something that people should just accept?
 
vi1lain said:
Just seen your edit now,

That particular example has more to do with stereotypes than a culture.
Unless British culture means having bad teeth, dodgy accents & generally being perverted - even then, Austin Powers still manages to be the hero, despite being depicted in a satirical manner.

It's vague of course, and it differs from person to person.
I personally don't have any issue with sharing cultural norms from my background, or learning about others' cultural norms.

But the over simplification that because it doesn't affect a select few individuals - particularly online, and therefore it's not offensive is ridiculous.
Click to expand...
It's more the fact that it doesn't seem to affect anyone other than a few oversensitive, invariably white SJWs who would still think we hadn't gone far enough to amend for the colonial wrongs of our ancestors when the self flagellation had removed every last trace of our pasty white flesh.

I've always found it absurd the way we attempt to tiptoe around racial and cultural stereotypes for fear of causing offense whilst the rest of the world just largely gets on with it and laughs, I remember as a left wing student being acutely embarrassed when my Indian housemate at Uni stuck on "The Party" one stoned Saturday afternoon and not quite understanding how he was pissing himself laughing at Peter Sellers rather than being offended. After all these years I still don't understand it, I'm just sure it's me that's got it wrong to some extent as I see 70s sitcoms like Mind Your Language are still airing on TV and sell on DVD in India and Singapore.
 
vi1lain said:
If the offended are the very people that come from the culture, how is it fair to diminish what they feel?

An example -
Kylie Jenner got dreadlocks about a year or so ago - and all the fashion magazines praised her "new" "edgy" "zany" look.
Zendaya (black/mixed race actress) also got dreadlocks not so long afterwards - those same fashion magazines said she looked like smelled like weed.

Now, as a black person that just reiterates that when someone who isn't black takes on a part of black culture - it's not seen negatively, in fact it can be cool.
Meanwhile black people who do the same, the negative connotations perpetuate, and they continue to be treated as such.
It shows a love for the culture (which is great & should be continued - but that's cultural assimilation, or appreciation) but the prejudices that the particular culture faces, continue. (like Paul Mooney on the Chappelle show said "everybody wants to be N word but nobody wants to be a N word")
There are dozens of examples for - bantu knots, cornrows durags, afro's, box braids etc. and that's just black hairstyles.

You could argue (I assume you're a white male) that this is stupid & not a 'real' problem. Sure, but as a black female, I could tell you that this isn't new, and it affects dozens of men & women I know who have their hairstyles in a certain way - they're seen as lazy, dirty, unprofessional etc. Now Kylie Jenner gets to take her dreadlocks out whenever she pleases, but not everybody has that luxury and will continue to live with the stigma.

They may not be vocal about it online, but are they not right to feel aggrieved? Or is it something that people should just accept?
Click to expand...

I still don't see what your point is specifically. A fashion magazine favouring a member of their royal family is indicative of a wider culture of what exactly?

What they said about the black model could be construed as racist but are the two linked to a wider cultural phenomenon where white people can be taken seriously no matter what hairstyle they have?

Or is it that some traditional black hairstyles are not seen as smart or classy by wider society but that some black people can only have those certain hairstyles?
 
Another Blackface hoohah.

CvIfPuTXgAAGgnN.jpg
 
Bury Red said:
It's more the fact that it doesn't seem to affect anyone other than a few oversensitive, invariably white SJWs who would still think we hadn't gone far enough to amend for the colonial wrongs of our ancestors when the self flagellation had removed every last trace of our pasty white flesh.

I've always found it absurd the way we attempt to tiptoe around racial and cultural stereotypes for fear of causing offense whilst the rest of the world just largely gets on with it and laughs, I remember as a left wing student being acutely embarrassed when my Indian housemate at Uni stuck on "The Party" one stoned Saturday afternoon and not quite understanding how he was pissing himself laughing at Peter Sellers rather than being offended. After all these years I still don't understand it, I'm just sure it's me that's got it wrong to some extent as I see 70s sitcoms like Mind Your Language are still airing on TV and sell on DVD in India and Singapore.
Click to expand...

I agree and I think a large part of that comes from social media which has over exposed certain issues and cultural appropriation is one of them.
Hell, the term itself seems coined purely for use on social media - I doubt many use it unless they're online.

I do think it's important to differentiate individual anecdotal experiences and using that as a generalisation for the entire topic.

It's unlikely that anyone who's from a minority culture will react in a severely negative manner, particularly when there are no intentions to cause harm. That doesn't mean that cultural appropriation doesn't exist though or shouldn't at least be treated with care.

But rather an opportunity to learn about new cultures. Instead it gets turned into "SJW's are too sensitive" and "you're offending me" and neither stance is correct, in my opinion.

Classical Mechanic said:
I still don't see what your point is specifically. A fashion magazine favouring a member of their royal family is indicative of a wider culture of what exactly?

What they said about the black model could be construed as racist but are the two linked to a wider cultural phenomenon where white people can be taken seriously no matter what hairstyle they have?

Or is it that some traditional black hairstyles are not seen as smart or classy by wider society but that some black people can only have those certain hairstyles?
Click to expand...

The two are linked where effectively you take from a culture when it suits you, but the people born into that culture don't get the same benefits.

I can only speak on behalf of black culture - but you can see wherever you go where influences of black culture infiltrate, music, clothing, fashion, hair, beauty etc. But when it comes to issues of black people being treated equally or represented fairly, that same willingness disappears.
 
vi1lain said:
If the offended are the very people that come from the culture, how is it fair to diminish what they feel?

An example -
Kylie Jenner got dreadlocks about a year or so ago - and all the fashion magazines praised her "new" "edgy" "zany" look.
Zendaya (black/mixed race actress) also got dreadlocks not so long afterwards - those same fashion magazines said she looked like smelled like weed.

Now, as a black person that just reiterates that when someone who isn't black takes on a part of black culture - it's not seen negatively, in fact it can be cool.
Meanwhile black people who do the same, the negative connotations perpetuate, and they continue to be treated as such.
It shows a love for the culture (which is great & should be continued - but that's cultural assimilation, or appreciation) but the prejudices that the particular culture faces, continue. (like Paul Mooney on the Chappelle show said "everybody wants to be N word but nobody wants to be a N word")
There are dozens of examples for - bantu knots, cornrows durags, afro's, box braids etc. and that's just black hairstyles.

You could argue (I assume you're a white male) that this is stupid & not a 'real' problem. Sure, but as a black female, I could tell you that this isn't new, and it affects dozens of men & women I know who have their hairstyles in a certain way - they're seen as lazy, dirty, unprofessional etc. Now Kylie Jenner gets to take her dreadlocks out whenever she pleases, but not everybody has that luxury and will continue to live with the stigma.

They may not be vocal about it online, but are they not right to feel aggrieved? Or is it something that people should just accept?
Click to expand...


That bit about dreadlocks smelling like weed often gets aimed at "white, hippy" types who get dreadlocks, it's sort of a stereotype.
 
vi1lain said:
The two are linked where effectively you take from a culture when it suits you, but the people born into that culture don't get the same benefits.

I can only speak on behalf of black culture - but you can see wherever you go where influences of black culture infiltrate, music, clothing, fashion, hair, beauty etc. But when it comes to issues of black people being treated equally or represented fairly, that same willingness disappears.
Click to expand...

Can this issue really be taken seriously when highlighted by a fashion magazine talking about a Kardashian and a single tweet made by some trashy entertainment journalist though?

It seems your general point is just about racism in general and black people not getting a fair chance in life, which most people would agree with.
 
Jippy said:
Another Blackface hoohah.

CvIfPuTXgAAGgnN.jpg
Click to expand...

What's the story behind that? Was it supposed to black face or was it supposed to be a soldier with camouflage paint (which sometimes can be different colors and other times can be one) on his face? I do see some spots which might be a dark green.

Peruvian Special Forces with a wide variety of "face paint" schemes including some that seem all one color

peruvian.jpg
 
JustAFan said:
What's the story behind that? Was it supposed to black face or was it supposed to be a soldier with camouflage paint (which sometimes can be different colors and other times can be one) on his face? I do see some spots which might be a dark green.
Click to expand...
This is what the army said.

An Army spokesman said: "The content of the tweet shows a picture of a soldier wearing camouflage and concealment measures, standard for jungle training in Belize.

"We can see how the tweet may have been misinterpreted, have immediately removed it and apologise for any offence it may have caused."
 
Jippy said:
This is what the army said.

An Army spokesman said: "The content of the tweet shows a picture of a soldier wearing camouflage and concealment measures, standard for jungle training in Belize.

"We can see how the tweet may have been misinterpreted, have immediately removed it and apologise for any offence it may have caused."
Click to expand...

What is that flag on his jacket as well?
 
Jippy said:
This is what the army said.

An Army spokesman said: "The content of the tweet shows a picture of a soldier wearing camouflage and concealment measures, standard for jungle training in Belize.

"We can see how the tweet may have been misinterpreted, have immediately removed it and apologise for any offence it may have caused."
Click to expand...

so basically ignorant people getting upset over something that isn't really there.
 
JustAFan said:
That bit about dreadlocks smelling like weed often gets aimed at "white, hippy" types who get dreadlocks, it's sort of a stereotype.
Click to expand...

I didn't say it doesn't, I just put the two reactions side by side to compare.
Also, like I said there are plenty more examples for different black hairstyles/cultural norms, not just dreadlocks - or limited to hair even.

Classical Mechanic said:
Can this issue really be taken seriously when highlighted by a fashion magazine talking about a Kardashian and a single tweet made by some trashy entertainment journalist though?

It seems your general point is just about racism in general and black people not getting a fair chance in life, which most people would agree with.
Click to expand...

I used one example, that happened to be a fashion magazine, which I only used to compare the differences in reaction. That one example isn't reflective of the entire topic of cultural appropriation. But also just because the source may be trashy doesn't mean the rationale behind the reaction isn't valid.

Cultural appropriation and racism intersect because often times it involves minority racial groups. But it's more about the acknowledgement of people's heritage, and respecting the history or reasoning behind why they may wear a certain garment - which I think is fair, if you can't be bothered to find out about other people's heritage, I don't understand why it's okay to call them sensitive if they feel their traditions aren't being respected.
 
vi1lain said:
As with anything, the topic of cultural appropriation can be taken out of context.

At it's core it's something which happens all the time.

Nobody is saying that people can't learn from cultures, adapt or involve themselves in new cultures - that's cultural assimilation, there's a mutual respect there and often times both sides learn new things.

Cultural appropriation is when you factor in the power dynamic, and as with anything context matters.
You can pick and choose which parts of a culture you enjoy (Native Indian clothing, dreadlocks, sarees etc) but still remain prejudiced against it's people and remain uneducated on the cultural norms behind whichever aspect of the culture you enjoy.
And usually when it's white people who do it, it usually becomes a positive trend and they're seen as innovative/cool/edgy but when the original people do the same things, the negative connotations are still attached.

It's not saying that you, individually are a bad person for wearing a costume. But if you don't care to learn about the culture it came from, you don't have the right to trivialise the feelings of the people who's culture your costume is imitating.

There's much more to be said of it if you want to learn about it, but I guess whole generalisations are easier.
Click to expand...

How often exactly is an actual analysis done of that persons level of understanding about the culture before an accusation of cultural appropriation is made? Because I've seen a lot of SJW types attacking people on social media, and I'm fairly sure they didn't enter into any kind of deep conversation beforehand to gauge their level of learning. Also who exactly gets to decide what an appropriate amount of understanding of a culture is before someone is allowed to have a particular hairstyle or wear an outfit? Wasn't there a story a while back about a white woman who lived in a black area and whose family was largely black, who was hauled over the coals online for having cornrows? Shouldn't she have been fine given she understood the culture?
 
Classical Mechanic said:
It is a really dumb tweet because it is obviously open to the wrong interpretation. You would expect more from a government organisation.
Click to expand...

The thing is though any negative reaction is out of ignorance and I bet those who got upset made zero effort to find out what the tweet was really about. So feck them.
 
Kentonio said:
How often exactly is an actual analysis done of that persons level of understanding about the culture before an accusation of cultural appropriation is made? Because I've seen a lot of SJW types attacking people on social media, and I'm fairly sure they didn't enter into any kind of deep conversation beforehand to gauge their level of learning. Also who exactly gets to decide what an appropriate amount of understanding of a culture is before someone is allowed to have a particular hairstyle or wear an outfit? Wasn't there a story a while back about a white woman who lived in a black area and whose family was largely black, who was hauled over the coals online for having cornrows? Shouldn't she have been fine given she understood the culture?
Click to expand...

I think the same argument made against SJWs who attack people on social media could be made for those who immediately dismiss the idea of cultural appropriation altogether. Both are broad generalisations that neither side should make.

Anecdotal stories about individuals in select conditions are outliers are not reflective of the actual issue either, you'll always find those it doesn't take away from the actual issue of cultural appropriation. For example another white woman decided she wanted to live her life as a black woman, even accusing others of racial discrimination against her & speaking on behalf of black people and the issues they face.
 
The whole concept of cultural appropriation is just plain stupid. Nobody has a monopoly/exclusive right to follow certain cultural norms. A white person has as much right to wear dreads as a black person. There are not intellectual property rights on these things. It is totally okay to wear any hair-cut or dress without learning anything about the culture that created it – simply because I like the optics. Nobody owns any culture and the outrage of cultural appropriation is down to a horrible understanding of identity and mental identity politics. Anyone should be allowed to find/create/define his own identity.

Racism is still a massive problems; especially minorities suffer from it and everybody should oppose racism. Ironically even the culture of minorities often highlight superficial things like the color of someone’s skin. The whole outrage about Rachel Dolezal was reeking hypocrisy.

The solution? Base your own identity on reasonable things. Nationality, race or skin color shouldn’t play a significant role.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.