Has political correctness actually gone mad?

Ekkie Thump said:
In this longer version he does the joke then immediately provides his idea of a justification for doing it:

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The longer version is a bit less grim. It’s in horrendously bad taste regardless. But that’s his shtick. Deliberately telling jokes in the worst possible taste. He’s hoping to make people laugh almost out of shock.

Well, I say worst possible taste but he’s clever enough to know there’s a line he can’t cross and that line will change over time. Gypsies (feel weird calling them that, I think it’s probably a slur? they’re called travellers in Ireland) are the right side of that line now but probably won’t be much longer.
 
I reckon a not insignificant amount of people wouldn’t even know gypsies are a race, which might be why there does seem to be a double standard.

I was only the other day reading a piece where Jimmy Carr said he dreads the day someone digs up something he said 20 years ago to cancel him with - then he goes and says that in his most recent show!
 
Why are people so outraged? It's just a dark joke like he always makes.
Nadine Dorries saying they are working on a law to actually outlaw "offensive" jokes should be causing far more outrage.
 
africanspur said:
Are you suggesting that in Germany there is no differentiation between races?
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There shouldn't be, as race is a made up construct. Gypsies aren't a race, just like white people aren't.

Most countries don't keep statistics on race like they do in the US, by the way.
 
Botim said:
Why are people so outraged? It's just a dark joke like he always makes.
Nadine Dorries saying they are working on a law to actually outlaw "offensive" jokes should be causing far more outrage.
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There's the argument that it's the double standard of us having moved on from accepting vicious humour about black, Asian and Jewish people as mainstream entertainment, but the gypsies are still being considered fair game cos people don't care about them and they have zero power or influence to object, being so marginalised.

Personally, I think the joke is a bit of a lazy cheap shot that feels very dated and a bit Bernard Manning.

The idea of banning 'offensive' jokes is bonkers though. Would you bar certain topics or have them pre-vetted? I don't think the holocaust is off limits, just there are better misdirection jokes about it.
 
Irish travellers, Romani and Roma groups are recognised as ethnic groups rather than as races. Discrimination against them is recognised as racism under the Race Relations Act and in a court of law, however.
 
africanspur said:
Are you suggesting that in Germany there is no differentiation between races?
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We avoid the term in general.
But we would not call the members of the group of Sinti and Roma a race.
 
Jippy said:
There's the argument that it's the double standard of us having moved on from accepting vicious humour about black, Asian and Jewish people as mainstream entertainment, but the gypsies are still being considered fair game cos people don't care about them and they have zero power or influence to object, being so marginalised.

Personally, I think the joke is a bit of a lazy cheap shot that feels very dated and a bit Bernard Manning.

The idea of banning 'offensive' jokes is bonkers though. Would you bar certain topics or have them pre-vetted? I don't think the holocaust is off limits, just there are better misdirection jokes about it.
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I watched this episode over Christmas and although I can’t remember that specific joke I’m going to assume it was delivered in the middle of a section where he literally prefaces it as “the part of the show that will get me cancelled” or “the end of my career” or something like that before he rattles off about 20 jokes which are genuinely horrific and offend just about everyone there is to offend.

If anything it feels like it could be offensive to the subjects of all the other jokes that people are outraged by this specific joke about this specific community while the others aren’t even mentioned.
 
Jimmy Carr jokes about some horrible things. He also makes me laugh.

I tend to not entirely disagree with his reasoning behind joking about horrible things either.
 
KirkDuyt said:
Jimmy Carr jokes about some horrible things. He also makes me laugh.

I tend to not entirely disagree with his reasoning behind joking about horrible things either.
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It's also pretty clear that he doesn't mean it. He's making those jokes just to be as horrible as possible to get a reaction.
As Pexbo said: “the part of the show that will get me cancelled”.
There are many things people can and should be offended by, stand up comedians saying horrible things to get a reaction, isn't one of them, imo.
 
Pexbo said:
I watched this episode over Christmas and although I can’t remember that specific joke I’m going to assume it was delivered in the middle of a section where he literally prefaces it as “the part of the show that will get me cancelled” or “the end of my career” or something like that before he rattles off about 20 jokes which are genuinely horrific and offend just about everyone there is to offend.

If anything it feels like it could be offensive to the subjects of all the other jokes that people are outraged by this specific joke about this specific community while the others aren’t even mentioned.
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I suppose he’s reframed the delivery for the times but in his early career they were just rattled off. I was a big fan of Jimmy Carr back then but even in those times his gypsy stuff seemed off because he wouldn’t dare make those jokes about other minority groups.
 
I tend to err on the side of 'freedom of speech' when it comes to jokes and comedy. And Carr has always been one of my favourites stand ups. But he really overstepped the line there.

He's literally guilty of hate speech. There's no defending it.
 
Dante said:
He's literally guilty of hate speech. There's no defending it.
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Oh common, that is so ridiculous. Nobody bats an eye when he jokes about rape or incest. Or when he made that joke about raising money for mosquito nets in Africa to prevent the poor mosquitos from getting aids.

It's his style of comedy. Either you ban offensive comedy altogether (as some fanatics are suggesting), or you accept that sometimes you'll feel disgusted by someone's jokes.
 
Anyone going to see Jimmy Carr or watch Jimmy Carr and approaching it through any contextual lens that doesn’t involve the thought process “this man is going to say horrific and offensive things that he clearly doesn’t believe himself but wants to get a reaction to highlight how horrific those things are and it’s a joke” perplexes me.

I don’t see why if we’re going down that road why it’s not had similar outrage at the suggestion of Jehovah’s Witnesses being killed too? And also why has it been over a month before anyone has decided to be outraged by this?

Im far more worried about the introduction of censorship than an idiot telling a crap joke.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
Anyone going to see Jimmy Carr or watch Jimmy Carr and approaching it through any contextual lens that doesn’t involve the thought process “this man is going to say horrific and offensive things that he clearly doesn’t believe himself but wants to get a reaction to highlight how horrific those things are and it’s a joke” perplexes me.

I don’t see why if we’re going down that road why it’s not had similar outrage at the suggestion of Jehovah’s Witnesses being killed too? And also why has it been over a month before anyone has decided to be outraged by this?

Im far more worried about the introduction of censorship than an idiot telling a crap joke.
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I think the point here is that he’s using gypsies because if he said it about any other group he’d be fecked. That’s not okay.
 
Just as with any form of humour, there’s successful bits and jokes that fall flat. The problem with the unsuccessful bits of black humour is that it often just becomes hate speech.

You can’t just hide behind crap black humour by saying it is designed to offend. The best of it usually has a satirical point or is used to provide cathartic relief. Unless you do a Stewart Lee piece and then use the joke to turn on the audience’s own racism, what’s the point of it? “Hahaha, we all hate gypsies, don’t we?”

I still do enjoy Jimmy Carr as a presenter of various things, but haven’t watched any of his recent stand up shows.
 
africanspur said:
Are you suggesting that in Germany there is no differentiation between races?
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The word "race", or rather the German word, "Rasse", is not an acceptable word to use as an actual description, due to it's integral connection to, well, RACISM and its history in Germany (for example, the "Rassengesetze", "race laws" of the Nazi era codifying discrimation and ultimately genocide based on 'racial' discourse).

And that's of course how it should be. "Race" is, on the whole, a racist word even in English, in that it purports to be a biological, evident category when it's really a highly discoursive societal one, entangled in a history of discrimination and exploitation, in which the self-naturalization, scientification of the concept plays a massive role.
I continue to be somewhat puzzled that the word is continued to being used straightforwardly in English-speaking societies even if of course there's a deconstruction of it going on. I think it throws a spanner into the work of anti-racism.
 
TMDaines said:
Just as with any form of humour, there’s successful bits and jokes that fall flat. The problem with the unsuccessful bits of black humour is that it often just becomes hate speech.

You can’t just hide behind crap black humour by saying it is designed to offend. The best of it usually has a satirical point or is used to provide cathartic relief. Unless you do a Stewart Lee piece and then use the joke to turn on the audience’s own racism, what’s the point of it? “Hahaha, we all hate gypsies, don’t we?”

I still do enjoy Jimmy Carr as a presenter of various things, but haven’t watched any of his recent stand up shows.
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His somewhat serious explanation afterwards is that most people don't even know about the holocaust also including gypsies, Jehova's gay people and the disabled.

It is clearly very offensieve and understandable people think he should feck off full blown hate speech? I disagree.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Irish travellers, Romani and Roma groups are recognised as ethnic groups rather than as races. Discrimination against them is recognised as racism under the Race Relations Act and in a court of law, however.
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The council were proposing to build a large traveller camp in a nearby village and local residents were all campaigning against it. They were coming up with all sorts of reasons like “drainage” but it was clear that the main reason that people were opposed was because of who would be living there. This is racism right? Would anyone on here be upset if the camp was being proposed on their doorsteps?
 
SilentWitness said:
I think the point here is that he’s using gypsies because if he said it about any other group he’d be fecked. That’s not okay.
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But if that was his intention why would he follow up with the Jehovahs joke?

Surely he’s using shock comedy to highlight the horrors of the holocaust for a few other groups too and I suppose ironically how we are more accepting of taking the piss out of those two smaller groups?

Nobody seems to be calling him out for the Jehovah comments unless I’m mistaken?
 
Pexbo said:
I watched this episode over Christmas and although I can’t remember that specific joke I’m going to assume it was delivered in the middle of a section where he literally prefaces it as “the part of the show that will get me cancelled” or “the end of my career” or something like that before he rattles off about 20 jokes which are genuinely horrific and offend just about everyone there is to offend.

If anything it feels like it could be offensive to the subjects of all the other jokes that people are outraged by this specific joke about this specific community while the others aren’t even mentioned.
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Yeah it's very subjective and I can't remember the last time time a joke caused this sort of hoohah, despite him and others aiming them at all and sundry.

@TMDaines makes a good point that if the joke falls flat with you it sounds way more unpleasant. I hadn't heard the one about the mosquito nets mentioned above and chuckled at that.
 
SilentWitness said:
I think the point here is that he’s using gypsies because if he said it about any other group he’d be fecked. That’s not okay.
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Not that I rate the joke or think he should have said it but this comment is actually very interesting. Clearly there is some worth to the joke if he's highlighting the misperception of a group in society to the point where Holocaust jokes about them don't immediately spark anger.
 
TwoSheds said:
Not that I rate the joke or think he should have said it but this comment is actually very interesting. Clearly there is some worth to the joke if he's highlighting the misperception of a group in society to the point where Holocaust jokes about them don't immediately spark anger.
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That’s how I viewed it to be honest.

It’s even prefeced with these jokes should get me cancelled yet the audience laughs along with it?

I’ll be honest I’m struggling to see the other side to this but I’m open to changing my view.
 
Sparky Rhiwabon said:
The council were proposing to build a large traveller camp in a nearby village and local residents were all campaigning against it. They were coming up with all sorts of reasons like “drainage” but it was clear that the main reason that people were opposed was because of who would be living there. This is racism right? Would anyone on here be upset if the camp was being proposed on their doorsteps?
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Fair point. Most people wouldn’t want a traveller camp built on their doorstep. Where I live people dreaded travellers pitching up on a field they’d use intermittently. They would always leave loads of rubbish, including excrement and crime would go up. The council put some massive rocks at the entrance so they couldn’t get on anymore. A lot of people have bad experiences with travellers. I don’t really know what the answer is to it.
 
Sparky Rhiwabon said:
The council were proposing to build a large traveller camp in a nearby village and local residents were all campaigning against it. They were coming up with all sorts of reasons like “drainage” but it was clear that the main reason that people were opposed was because of who would be living there. This is racism right? Would anyone on here be upset if the camp was being proposed on their doorsteps?
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Basically every person in the world would be upset I would guess, the traveller way of life does not match up well with the rest of the world's.
 
On Jimmy Carr and all of this. Everyone has a right to like it or be appalled. If you like it watch it, if you are appalled don't subscribe to Netflix. You don't ban it, you just don't make it a worthwhile commodity. Where and how we spend our money is one of our loudest voices. Its about margins. Trump was dumped when he crossed the line from 'all exposure is good exposure' to 'toxic for the brand'. Same with Rogan, the retrospective deletion is them protecting their product.
 
TwoSheds said:
Not that I rate the joke or think he should have said it but this comment is actually very interesting. Clearly there is some worth to the joke if he's highlighting the misperception of a group in society to the point where Holocaust jokes about them don't immediately spark anger.
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Ah Carr is not an idiot, he wilfully treads the line and is also a clever marketer. I think he's a bit of a whore who makes tasteless jokes that lack malice. He balances it with lots of self deprecation to level out the power dynamics.

I don't like jokes that punch down but very few people can do it with the lack of venom that Carr can.
That said if he was hounded out of netflix by punters for basically making cash off racist jokes I wouldn't see it as a huge tragedy.
 
Sparky Rhiwabon said:
The council were proposing to build a large traveller camp in a nearby village and local residents were all campaigning against it. They were coming up with all sorts of reasons like “drainage” but it was clear that the main reason that people were opposed was because of who would be living there. This is racism right? Would anyone on here be upset if the camp was being proposed on their doorsteps?
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It’s not racism at all.
the fields near where I live have travellers on them about twice a year despite the best efforts of the council to stop them.
£40k clear up each time, fly tipping, dogs stolen etc.
On my road each house on one side of the road had a nail through a car tyre to make it flat.
if the nail is still there in a couple of days the house gets broken into. Police know this is a traveller strategy and coincidentally only happens when they are around.
So no, I don’t want them anywhere near me or my family.
 
The Purley King said:
It’s not racism at all.
the fields near where I live have travellers on them about twice a year despite the best efforts of the council to stop them.
£40k clear up each time, fly tipping, dogs stolen etc.
On my road each house on one side of the road had a nail through a car tyre to make it flat.
if the nail is still there in a couple of days the house gets broken into. Police know this is a traveller strategy and coincidentally only happens when they are around.
So no, I don’t want them anywhere near me or my family.
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That seems a very imprecise strategy in London, given at my old flat I used to regularly have to park in the neighbouring streets or some way from my place cos it was always so rammed.
 
Jippy said:
That seems a very imprecise strategy in London, given at my old flat I used to regularly have to park in the neighbouring streets or some way from my place cos it was always so rammed.
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It’s mostly semi detached houses and the street isn’t that busy with parked cars so it’s fairly straightforward to know which car belongs to which house.
Anyway I am a massive nimby when it comes to travellers. I can’t see that ever changing if I’m honest.
 
Conor said:
Basically every person in the world would be upset I would guess, the traveller way of life does not match up well with the rest of the world's.
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The Purley King said:
It’s not racism at all.
the fields near where I live have travellers on them about twice a year despite the best efforts of the council to stop them.
£40k clear up each time, fly tipping, dogs stolen etc.
On my road each house on one side of the road had a nail through a car tyre to make it flat.
if the nail is still there in a couple of days the house gets broken into. Police know this is a traveller strategy and coincidentally only happens when they are around.
So no, I don’t want them anywhere near me or my family.
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But travellers / gypsies are classed as a race legally - substitute traveller for “black person“ or “Muslim” or pretty much any other minority in these types of posts and you wouldn’t get away with it. Years ago people would have been saying similar things if they were faced with a load of blacks or Asians being moved into their area. Sadly Travellers / Gypsies seem to be the one minority group that are still fair game.
 
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The Purley King said:
It’s mostly semi detached houses and the street isn’t that busy with parked cars so it’s fairly straightforward to know which car belongs to which house.
Anyway I am a massive nimby when it comes to travellers. I can’t see that ever changing if I’m honest.
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Ah fair enough, that's a posher part of town. My last two flats have been in four or five storey converted terraces where you haven't got a clue who exactly lives where.
 
Sparky Rhiwabon said:
But travellers / gypsies are classed as a race legally - substitute traveller for “black person“ or “Muslim” or pretty much any other minority in these types of posts and you wouldn’t get away with it. Travellers / Gypsies seem to be the one minority group that are still fair game.
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It's quite preposterous to call travellers a race, isn't it? Is Tyson Fury a different race from other white blokes? A different culture, yes.

The reason they are widely disliked is that they are the only semi nomadic people left in Europe and therefore don't really fit in anywhere. It's not an easy issue. My wife works for the social service here in Belgium. We don't have travellers, but plenty of Roma. They generally don't trust anyone from the outside and are likewise not trusted by the rest of society. Very hard to help them.
 
Botim said:
It's quite preposterous to call travellers a race, isn't it? Is Tyson Fury a different race from other white blokes? A different culture, yes.

The reason they are widely disliked is that they are the only semi nomadic people left in Europe and therefore don't really fit in anywhere. It's not an easy issue. My wife works for the social service here in Belgium. We don't have travellers, but plenty of Roma. They generally don't trust anyone from the outside and are likewise not trusted by the rest of society. Very hard to help them.
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Similar to the argument about Jews that started this debate I guess
 
The Purley King said:
It’s not racism at all.
the fields near where I live have travellers on them about twice a year despite the best efforts of the council to stop them.
£40k clear up each time, fly tipping, dogs stolen etc.
On my road each house on one side of the road had a nail through a car tyre to make it flat.
if the nail is still there in a couple of days the house gets broken into. Police know this is a traveller strategy and coincidentally only happens when they are around.
So no, I don’t want them anywhere near me or my family.
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Right but if the police did their job and caught them committing crimes then presumably they'd stop? "Moving them on" isn't really a solution is it? Maybe dividing them out from other people is one of the reasons they act like that? I'm not saying "stop being dicks to travellers and they'll stop committing crimes" but it has to be the starting point surely?
 
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