Has political correctness actually gone mad?

Is it cultural appropriation for black women to straighten their hair, contour their noses to make them more aquiline, or wear wigs made of the hair of Indian hair?

One of the biggest selling beauty products in India is bleaching cream, is that cultural appropriation?

What about a Chinese person with a perm, is that allowed?

To be honest, it only seems to get called cultural appropriation when it's white people doing black people stuff. All of the other cultures are ignored and black people have free range to pick whatever they want from other cultures.

@villain has mentioned repeatedly that its about taking how people are taking fashion from black people without truly understanding the pain that those fashions are intertwined with, but how many black women think about the destitute Indian women that are selling their hair for food that can be used for hair extensions?

No culture exists on its own, there needs to be cultural interchange for a culture to survive and grow. That inevitably leads to cross contamination. People are picking on Jesy because she is an easy target, but if you want cultural isolation, make sure your culture isn't absorbing from another culture first, rather than having a go at a woman who has a tan because she went on a three week holiday before a video shoot!
 
Peter van der Gea said:
Is it cultural appropriation for black women to straighten their hair, contour their noses to make them more aquiline, or wear wigs made of the hair of Indian hair?

One of the biggest selling beauty products in India is bleaching cream, is that cultural appropriation?

What about a Chinese person with a perm, is that allowed?

To be honest, it only seems to get called cultural appropriation when it's white people doing black people stuff. All of the other cultures are ignored and black people have free range to pick whatever they want from other cultures.

@villain has mentioned repeatedly that its about taking how people are taking fashion from black people without truly understanding the pain that those fashions are intertwined with, but how many black women think about the destitute Indian women that are selling their hair for food that can be used for hair extensions?

No culture exists on its own, there needs to be cultural interchange for a culture to survive and grow. That inevitably leads to cross contamination. People are picking on Jesy because she is an easy target, but if you want cultural isolation, make sure your culture isn't absorbing from another culture first, rather than having a go at a woman who has a tan because she went on a three week holiday before a video shoot!
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It's almost as if you're being deliberately obtuse.
 
Peter van der Gea said:
One of the biggest selling beauty products in India is bleaching cream, is that cultural appropriation?
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You couldn't have found a worse example. That product is literally one of the most disgusting pieces of marketing that I've ever seen and people have protested against that for ages, except that in a country as backward as ours, no one will ever give a shit about it. It literally promotes discriminating people based on skin color - something that has been a part of this culture since ancient times and to this day people with lighter/fairer skin (which is literally the name of the cnut product - Fair and Lovely/Handsome) are always considered superior regardless of anything else. People with darker skin to this day are openly mocked throughout the country with zero realization. I mean, the fecking ad of the product literally shows a girl with darker skin going for a job and getting rejected, then using this to make her skin lighter and getting the job just because of a different skin colour.

Forget cultural appropriation, that shit and what it represents in this culture is downright pathetic and nauseating.
 
The Corinthian said:
It's almost as if you're being deliberately obtuse.
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Can you show me a case of "cultural appropriation" that is not white people stealing black culture?

Yeah, I agree, borrowing from another culture should involve getting a good understanding of the struggles that culture has been through, but it should be a two way street. There are other cultures that have been disgustingly appropriated without a second glance to their struggles. How many Chinese and Arabic tattoos do you see in non Chinese/Arabic people, the American dollar has a pyramid on it, Native Americans were used to sell cigarettes. None of that is treated the same as black fashion being coopted by white people, there is no where near the outrage.

What is being discussed here is not "cultural appropriation", it's "Black fashion theft"
 
Moby said:
You couldn't have found a worse example. That product is literally one of the most disgusting pieces of marketing that I've ever seen and people have protested against that for ages, except that in a country as backward as ours, no one will ever give a shit about it. It literally promotes discriminating people based on skin color - something that has been a part of this culture since ancient times and to this day people with lighter/fairer skin (which is literally the name of the cnut product - Fair and Lovely/Handsome) are always considered superior regardless of anything else. People with darker skin to this day are openly mocked throughout the country with zero realization. I mean, the fecking ad of the product literally shows a girl with darker skin going for a job and getting rejected, then using this to make her skin lighter and getting the job just because of a different skin colour.

Forget cultural appropriation, that shit and what it represents in this culture is downright pathetic and nauseating.
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I agree mate, but nevertheless, it shows that cultural absorbing happens all the time in all cultures
 
Peter van der Gea said:
Can you show me a case of "cultural appropriation" that is not white people stealing black culture?
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No he doesn't need, because we are not here sitting in a debate club trying to humour ourselves with 'more examples of the same' - this is being discussed specific to white people impersonating a culture they have disregarded and discriminated for centuries - there's no necessary to draw equivalences for the sake of it especially when it comes to a topic concerning a race and what they have experienced which is completely individual to them. These are just stupid diversion topics trying to deflect from the actual issue and honestly, if you haven't been at the end of the said issues and have no way of ever understanding it, rather take a backseat instead of forcing them to come out and explain their problems to you. And even after having done that it's barely of any use to some - so just let the ones concerned take this up.
 
Peter van der Gea said:
I agree mate, but nevertheless, it shows that cultural absorbing happens all the time in all cultures
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Except what you have said has absolutely nothing to do with white people. That's been part of the culture here long before they knew white people existed. It's simply one of many disgusting forms of discriminations that has been practiced here since forever.
 
Moby said:
No he doesn't need, because we are not here sitting in a debate club trying to humour ourselves with 'more examples of the same' - this is being discussed specific to white people impersonating a culture they have disregarded and discriminated for centuries - there's no necessary to draw equivalences for the sake of it especially when it comes to a topic concerning a race and what they have experienced which is completely individual to them. These are just stupid diversion topics trying to deflect from the actual issue and honestly, if you haven't been at the end of the said issues and have no way of ever understanding it, rather take a backseat instead of forcing them to come out and explain their problems to you. And even after having done that it's barely of any use to some - so just let the ones concerned take this up.
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How is it a diversion? Where have I said that people shouldn't understand the culture they have borrowed from? That should be the point, not banning them from borrowing at all.

Why should black women borrow Indian women's hair without fully appreciating the suffering that billions have in India? If they are asking Jesy to, shouldn't they also?
 
Peter van der Gea said:
How is it a diversion? Where have I said that people shouldn't understand the culture they have borrowed from? That should be the point, not banning them from borrowing at all.

Why should black women borrow Indian women's hair without fully appreciating the suffering that billions have in India? If they are asking Jesy to, shouldn't they also?
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Because black people did not spend centuries making Indian people their slaves and discriminating them based on the very same cultural traits they now want to impersonate? It's not difficult to understand.
 
Moby said:
Except what you have said has absolutely nothing to do with white people. That's been part of the culture here long before they knew white people existed. It's simply one of many disgusting forms of discriminations that has been practiced here since forever.
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Yeah, it goes back to the indo aryan invasions. Crazy that, bunch of whiter people invaded, conquered and everyone tried to look like them.

Loads of Europeans took on roman and Greek looks too. Large portions of the world wear trousers, a celtic fashion.

As I said, when you have two or more cultures they cross contaminate and cross pollinate. I don't know why Jesy is getting blasted so much about this.
 
Moby said:
Because black people did not spend centuries making Indian people their slaves and discriminating them based on the very same cultural traits they now want to impersonate? It's not difficult to understand.
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Which black people are you talking about?

The caliphates? Idi Armin's Uganda? The current South African government? The descendents of slavers and slaves who are controlling half the world with strategic military capitalism?
 
Moby said:
Somebody please help this guy. I've neither the patience nor the interest.
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Look, I'm not trying to be obtuse or awkward. I do understand the anger behind seeing someone who hasn't been through the struggle basking in the glory of that struggle.

Its just that this argument of "cultural appropriation" seems to have a very narrow focus of white people doing it to Afro-American, Afro-British or Afro-Caribbean people. Everyone else is excluded from the narrative.

More than half the world live in East/South East Asia, the majority far poorer than any Afro-American or Afro-British, trapped in poverty by a capitalist systems that rewards those living in the western world. Exactly where the Afro-American and Afro-British (and I) live. And they appropriate not just the fashion of long dark hair from them, but the actual hair itself. I'm Sikh, we're not supposed cut our hair, ever, so how do you think I feel when I see a black woman with a stunning weave?

I have never, not once, heard an apology from the black community for that fashion. I am not saying the black community doesn't need an apology for the theft of their culture, I'm saying that they need to pay it forward too.
 
Peter van der Gea said:
@villain has mentioned repeatedly that its about taking how people are taking fashion from black people without truly understanding the pain that those fashions are intertwined with, but how many black women think about the destitute Indian women that are selling their hair for food that can be used for hair extensions?
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Ah what an excellent example, you have chosen.
Why do you think, in modern history, black women started wearing wigs and extensions so much? Because our natural hair was deemed unprofessional and dirty and we couldn't get hired when we wore braids, dreadlocks.
Which, if we go back to Jesy & cultural appropriation, it means that as a white woman she can perm her hair, frizz it up, braid it, dreadlock it or whatever because it looks cool and she wants to try something a bit different, and face no real world repercussions as a result.
But when people with dark skin have those same hairstyles they get rejected from job interviews for not looking 'professional', or as kids they get sent home for failing to comply with the school uniform because their hair isn't 'neat'.
So once again - if natural black hairstyles was accepted and loved on black skin, like it is on non black skin, this wouldn't be an issue, but its not, so it is.

Also funny how you've only implied that black women wear wigs, when statistically white women wear a helluva lot of wigs & extensions too, I don't have the research to back it up, but purely on a numbers game I wouldn't be surprised if the two are similar. Black women just have the stereotype of being the only race to wear wigs because it looks most obvious on us when we do it & there's the stereotype that we can't grow our own hair long.
 
villain said:
Ah what an excellent example, you have chosen.
Why do you think, in modern history, black women started wearing wigs and extensions so much? Because our natural hair was deemed unprofessional and dirty and we couldn't get hired when we wore braids, dreadlocks.
Which, if we go back to Jesy & cultural appropriation, it means that as a white woman she can perm her hair, frizz it up, braid it, dreadlock it or whatever because it looks cool and she wants to try something a bit different, and face no real world repercussions as a result.
But when people with dark skin have those same hairstyles they get rejected from job interviews for not looking 'professional', or as kids they get sent home for failing to comply with the school uniform because their hair isn't 'neat'.
So once again - if natural black hairstyles was accepted and loved on black skin, like it is on non black skin, this wouldn't be an issue, but its not, so it is.

Also funny how you've only implied that black women wear wigs, when statistically white women wear a helluva lot of wigs & extensions too, I don't have the research to back it up, but purely on a numbers game I wouldn't be surprised if the two are similar. Black women just have the stereotype of being the only race to wear wigs because it looks most obvious on us when we do it & there's the stereotype that we can't grow our own hair long.
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But the point you also have the choice to change your look. Specifically using the hair of a poverty stricken lady in India or China. And I say, let Jesy do what she wants, you do you, but if you require an apology from her when she borrows, realise you owe one if you also borrow
 
Peter van der Gea said:
Look, I'm not trying to be obtuse or awkward. I do understand the anger behind seeing someone who hasn't been through the struggle basking in the glory of that struggle.

Its just that this argument of "cultural appropriation" seems to have a very narrow focus of white people doing it to Afro-American, Afro-British or Afro-Caribbean people. Everyone else is excluded from the narrative.

More than half the world live in East/South East Asia, the majority far poorer than any Afro-American or Afro-British, trapped in poverty by a capitalist systems that rewards those living in the western world. Exactly where the Afro-American and Afro-British (and I) live. And they appropriate not just the fashion of long dark hair from them, but the actual hair itself. I'm Sikh, we're not supposed cut our hair, ever, so how do you think I feel when I see a black woman with a stunning weave?

I have never, not once, heard an apology from the black community for that fashion. I am not saying the black community doesn't need an apology for the theft of their culture, I'm saying that they need to pay it forward too.
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And Native American people, and Asian people, etc.

This thing you're talking about that it's just black fashion, that's something you made up.
 
Peter van der Gea said:
But the point you also have the choice to change your look. Specifically using the hair of a poverty stricken lady in India or China. And I say, let Jesy do what she wants, you do you, but if you require an apology from her when she borrows, realise you owe one if you also borrow
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Who has asked Jesy for an apology? I simply stated why she's faced criticism, but you are being obtuse or intentionally misunderstanding because I believe I've explained it to you on 3 separate occasions now.

From my perspective, I simply want black women to be appreciated when they do and wear the same things that white women get appreciated for when they take those same things from a different culture.
Let's start there and the conversations about cultural appropriation will go away.
And once again, that hair doesn't only get sent to black women, but white women (and possibly other races) who also wear wigs.
 
NotThatSoph said:
And Native American people, and Asian people, etc.

This thing you're talking about that it's just black fashion, that's something you made up.
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To be fair, we've been talking about Jesy here and that's where the whole cultural appropriation stuff has come from. To me she looks more Indian than black anyway, so I find it funny that she's being called out for looking "black". And her tan is natural anyway.
villain said:
Who has asked Jesy for an apology? I simply stated why she's faced criticism, but you are being obtuse or intentionally misunderstanding because I believe I've explained it to you on 3 separate occasions now.

From my perspective, I simply want black women to be appreciated when they do and wear the same things that white women get appreciated for when they take those same things from a different culture.
Let's start there and the conversations about cultural appropriation will go away.
And once again, that hair doesn't only get sent to black women, but white women (and possibly other races) who also wear wigs.
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If someone is criticised, isn't an acceptance of fault and an apology expected?

Hair does get sent too lots of different women, but it is only the black women who don't have straight black hair in their culture. The same cherry picking of a culture is going on there too, but is ignored by the exact people criticising.
 
Peter van der Gea said:
If someone is criticised, isn't an acceptance of fault and an apology expected?

Hair does get sent too lots of different women, but it is only the black women who don't have straight black hair in their culture. The same cherry picking of a culture is going on there too, but is ignored by the exact people criticising.
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You're putting words in mouth, once again I've never asked Jesy for an apology.
I'm simply stating that black women should get appreciated for the very things they created as part of their culture.

So because black women don't grow straight hair, they are the only ones culturally appropriating straight hair, and therefore they should apologise for contributing to the practice of Indian and Chinese women cutting their hair?
But the women who do grow straight hair and also wear wigs aren't at fault, and shouldn't have to apologise for their part?
 
villain said:
You're putting words in mouth, once again I've never asked Jesy for an apology.
I'm simply stating that black women should get appreciated for the very things they created as part of their culture.

So because black women don't grow straight hair, they are the only ones culturally appropriating straight hair, and therefore they should apologise for contributing to the practice of Indian and Chinese women cutting their hair?
But the women who do grow straight hair and also wear wigs aren't at fault, and shouldn't have to apologise for their part?
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I never said you did. You said you were explaining the criticism, I said if someone is criticising, they probably want an apology. It's the people criticising Jesy I don't agree with. Specifically those black women who wear wigs but don't appreciate the cultures that encourage long black hair.

And yes, specially, black women do not have straight black hair in their culture. European women have straight black hair sometimes, Hispanic women do, Arabian women do, but black women do not. And because they don't, if they do wear that fashion, it's a borrowed fashion.
 
Peter van der Gea said:
I never said you did. You said you were explaining the criticism, I said if someone is criticising, they probably want an apology. It's the people criticising Jesy I don't agree with. Specifically those black women who wear wigs but don't appreciate the cultures that encourage long black hair.

And yes, specially, black women do not have straight black hair in their culture. European women have straight black hair sometimes, Hispanic women do, Arabian women do, but black women do not. And because they don't, if they do wear that fashion, it's a borrowed fashion.
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You're completely ignoring why black women wore those straight hairstyles in the first place, i've written it before you can read above if you've forgotten.
And you're moving the goalposts because originally your concern was that Indian women were cutting their hair so black women can wear wigs. Now your concern is not about Indian women who are having to cut their own hair (because i've explained to you that it's not just black women contributing to it) but rather its specifically black women who deserve criticism because they can't control how their natural hair grows, but every other race who wear wigs shouldn't be criticised.

At this point I'm going to believe you're trolling, and if you're not then i'd prefer you don't quote me again, it's useless.
 
Peter van der Gea said:
To be fair, we've been talking about Jesy here and that's where the whole cultural appropriation stuff has come from. To me she looks more Indian than black anyway, so I find it funny that she's being called out for looking "black". And her tan is natural anyway.
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To be fair you've repeatedly said that cultural appropriation is only called that when it's "white people doing black people stuff". This is wrong, obviously wrong. The "whole cultoral appropriation stuff" is because of this woman in this specific instance in this specific Redcafe thread, not in general.
 
villain said:
You're completely ignoring why black women wore those straight hairstyles in the first place, i've written it before you can read above if you've forgotten.
And you're moving the goalposts because originally your concern was that Indian women were cutting their hair so black women can wear wigs. Now your concern is not about Indian women who are having to cut their own hair (because i've explained to you that it's not just black women contributing to it) but rather its specifically black women who deserve criticism because they can't control how their natural hair grows, but every other race who wear wigs shouldn't be criticised.

At this point I'm going to believe you're trolling, and if you're not then i'd prefer you don't quote me again, it's useless.
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And you are completely ignoring that Indian women today are having to cut off their hair because of the economic capitalistic oppression imposed by the west.

Black women enjoy the beauty of long straight hair without having to live in those disgusting conditions, but instead profit from that economic oppression by dint of being lucky to be born in the right place.

I haven't said other women shouldn't be criticised, but there is a difference between those women and black women because you can't grow that hair in your culture at all, so if you have that hair you are mimicking an external culture.

A white woman could say she's trying to look like a white woman with straight black, same as a Hispanic woman or an Arabic woman. A black woman can not say she has a look that's "in culture", with straight hair.

Did Jesy or even any of Jesy's ancestors profit from the slave trade any more than women, any women in the western world do by oppressing the third world now?
 
Peter van der Gea said:
To be honest, it only seems to get called cultural appropriation when it's white people doing black people stuff. All of the other cultures are ignored and black people have free range to pick whatever they want from other cultures.
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I hate when people say stuff like this because life you really pay attention, plenty of black people have been accused of appropriating other cultures. Insinuating that it’s only a problem when it happens to black people is pathetic.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....n-saturday-night-live-performance-2321789?amp

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...ina-cover-instagram-twitter-a8998231.html?amp
 
OL29 said:
I hate when people say stuff like this because life you really pay attention, plenty of black people have been accused of appropriating other cultures. Insinuating that it’s only a problem when it happens to black people is pathetic.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.nme.com/news/music/nicki-minaj-accused-cultural-appropriation-saturday-night-live-performance-2321789?amp

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...ina-cover-instagram-twitter-a8998231.html?amp
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Here’s another example.

You have to wonder if a lot of the fuss about cultural appropriation is kicked off by people who don’t really care about it but see an opportunity to score points in the culture war.
 
entropy said:
Cultural appropriation doesn’t happen in a vacuum. Rachel Dolezal is still out here making money, publishing books etc. The same way Post Malone is making music covered in dreds and tattoos. IMO, it rarely doesn’t involve screwing other people over.
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Is there something inherently wrong with Malone being covered in dreds and making money?
 
OL29 said:
I hate when people say stuff like this because life you really pay attention, plenty of black people have been accused of appropriating other cultures. Insinuating that it’s only a problem when it happens to black people is pathetic.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.nme.com/news/music/nicki-minaj-accused-cultural-appropriation-saturday-night-live-performance-2321789?amp

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...ina-cover-instagram-twitter-a8998231.html?amp
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Pogue Mahone said:
Here’s another example.

You have to wonder if a lot of the fuss about cultural appropriation is kicked off by people who don’t really care about it but see an opportunity to score points in the culture war.
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I'm glad to be corrected, but I don't think ANY of these women should be criticised and most of the people who are criticising are hypocritical.

So many people shout cultural appropriation without looking at the clothes they're wearing or the hairstyles they have. As I said, any black woman with straight hair, any Indian with blonde hair, anyone who dresses like a fecking alien, have no right to criticise this lady without talking about the way they themselves are dressed first.

I'm saying cultural appropriation happens all the time, in every culture, and its a good thing.
 
Honest question : Does anyone every talk about cultural appropriation offline? I’ve never experienced a single person actually giving a Fcuk about it in reality. It forever feels like an online construct rather than a reality.

Adult conversations in the real world tend to revolve around authenticity rather than appropriation, then judge accordingly. Exploitation and Appreciation have been stupidly smashed together and posited as Appropriation. Idiots seem to throw Race into it online, all the while they celebrate Drake, perhaps the worlds biggest culture vulture.

Without doubt it’s complicated, there are many dickheads in the world, but the framing online is completely divorced from the real world experience.
 
nimic said:
What does that question have to do with your previous question?
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I'm just wondering if Post Malone might have had people with a similar hairstyles in his ancestry. I don't know if he has any viking ancestry, I'm just trying to show how illogical it is ban someone from having a hairstyle because of their race
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Honest question : Does anyone every talk about cultural appropriation offline? I’ve never experienced a single person actually giving a Fcuk about it in reality. It forever feels like an online construct rather than a reality.

Adult conversations in the real world tend to revolve around authenticity rather than appropriation, then judge accordingly. Exploitation and Appreciation have been stupidly smashed together and posited as Appropriation. Idiots seem to throw Race into it online, all the while they celebrate Drake, perhaps the worlds biggest culture vulture.

Without doubt it’s complicated, there are many dickheads in the world, but the framing online is completely divorced from the real world experience.
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It's just another one of the many new phrases people online use to try and dictate what other people can and cannot do. Some folk are just born bossy and like to try telling everyone else how they should live, despite it being absolutely none of their business. Before the internet, these folk probably just bothered their neighbour or local village committee. Now they can get a virtual audience and do it worldwide. Must be heaven for them.
 
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