What matters are the tournaments and the performance at the WC was decent, so there's a point to be made about not getting hysterical over meaningless post season friendlies, especially when Flick is trying a lot of different things. On the other hand the bad public atmosphere this is creating around the team can't be ignored entirely either.
Hansi Flick (sack) watch
- Thread starter Suedesi
- Start date
What matters are the tournaments and the performance at the WC was decent, so there's a point to be made about not getting hysterical over meaningless post season friendlies, especially when Flick is trying a lot of different things. On the other hand the bad public atmosphere this is creating around the team can't be ignored entirely either.
I know this is far from a vintage German generation player wise, but Germany cannot have these kinds of results.
Very frustrating performance. Hard to tell how much of that is Flick's fault as some players make the kind of bad decisions and technical mistakes that leave you scratching your head. On the other hand, the German players looked isolated so often and that's usually the coach's responsibility.
Maybe Flick is interested in rejoining Bayern now Brazzo is gone?
Maybe Flick is interested in rejoining Bayern now Brazzo is gone?
This group of players is absolutely rotten. There are no leaders in this group and they don't have a striker.
Well, England actually have players that can score, which is a bit of an advantage.
Ye it’s probably a natural goalscorer that’s letting Germany down. Their defence is better than ours though and they can’t keep Clean sheets, so it’s not all about scoring. There wide players should also be chipping in with goals.
Gernany have a better defence than England?
I know he's retired from the national team, but I would contact Toni Kroos and ask him if he can give just one more year of service. Would provided sorely needed leadership and experience in the dressing room and can still an excellent player to bring in to bring order to a game.
I wouldnt call a group stage exit a decent WC performance.
Yeah, because things worked out so well with him in the team.
They worked out once, didn't they? I mean what do you have to lose at this point? The argument of throwing the youth or untested players in the national team doesn't really factor here since you have a huge international tournament at home next year. You cannot do too many experiments with one year left to that.
When is this supposed to have worked out? Almost 10 years ago?
Ok. I can see you don't like the player. Fair enough
I'm just asking you for examples of Kroos making things work out for Germany.
Well their CB are better than Maguire. Keepers better than Pickford. Not sure on FB
Kroos is an excellent player and likely still would be for the NT. Nonetheless he also isn't really an inspiring leader and it is highly doubtful he would infuse the rest of the team with what's needed.
He simply never was a player who made the NT great, but that doesn't diminish that he played a very important part when it was great, but that structure and backbone had names like Lahm, Schweinsteiger or Neuer.
That was really a out of this world season for your team. Not because of the 6 trophies, but the manner of winning. Bayern were pummeling good teams left and right.
You make some real good points and I agree with you. I was just thinking that the cupboard was pretty bare in the German midfield and the lack of viable alternatives would make them look for outside alternatives. But I see that this wouldn't be the case if he's not an inspiring leader
England have a better defence than Germany.
Germany have conceded 62 goals in their last 50 matches (16 clean-sheets).
England have conceded 28 goals in their last 50 matches (32 clean-sheets).
Goalkeepers (Point for Germany)
Of course Neuer and Ter Stegen are better than Pickford.
But i don't think that Pickford has made a massive error for England.
Right-backs (Point for England)
James, Walker, Alexander-Arnold and Trippier are world-class.
Henrichs, Kehrer, Klostermann, Wolf, Baku or Vagnoman are totally average.
Centre-backs (Draw)
Stones is nearly world-class in my opinion....Guehi looks fantastic....Tomori would be a good option too (Oh Southgate
)....Maguire, Mings, White, Dunk or Dier are okay but nothing special.Rüdiger is a very good.....Thiaw could be a good option for the future.....Süle has a couple of problems.....Schlotterbeck looks sometimes great and sometimes shocking......Ginter, Tah, Bella-Kotchap or Koch are average.
Left-backs (Point for England)
Shaw and Chilwell (Even Trippier in this position) are so much better than Gosens, Raum, Halstenberg or Günter.
I'm not criticizing Flick yet. The quality in our squad is shambolic at the moment when you compare it to the previous decade.
To see guys like Can, Henrichs, Wolf, Kehrer and Ginter starting shows how far it's fallen. And what's sad is that many of these players were really talented when they were young but never developed into top class players. It's insane when you think a virtual U-21 squad won the Confed Cup against full strength teams like Mexico and Chile, while the second string U-21 team won the U-21 euros against Spain.
None of those players bar Kimmich has turned into truly world class players, few developed into good players (Same, Gnabry, Goretzka, Sule) while a lot others just feel by the wayside and became average (Brandt, Tah, Henrichs to name a few).
To see guys like Can, Henrichs, Wolf, Kehrer and Ginter starting shows how far it's fallen. And what's sad is that many of these players were really talented when they were young but never developed into top class players. It's insane when you think a virtual U-21 squad won the Confed Cup against full strength teams like Mexico and Chile, while the second string U-21 team won the U-21 euros against Spain.
None of those players bar Kimmich has turned into truly world class players, few developed into good players (Same, Gnabry, Goretzka, Sule) while a lot others just feel by the wayside and became average (Brandt, Tah, Henrichs to name a few).
Gündogan, Kimmich, Goretzka all won the CL in recent years as important parts of their teams (or even captaining it), Musiala is an excellent talent and Can is a capable DM backup. I just don't see that big quality problem in the midfield as the reason for the current problems, the central midfield isn't as bare as other positions (full backs and strikers definitely being the biggest problem at the moment).
The point is… Germany should be doing much better with the team they have. No excuses. Teams like Austria are winning games for fun.England have a better defence than Germany.
Germany have conceded 62 goals in their last 50 matches (16 clean-sheets).
England have conceded 28 goals in their last 50 matches (32 clean-sheets).
Goalkeepers (Point for Germany)
Of course Neuer and Ter Stegen are better than Pickford.
But i don't think that Pickford has made a massive error for England.
Right-backs (Point for England)
James, Walker, Alexander-Arnold and Trippier are world-class.
Henrichs, Kehrer, Klostermann, Wolf, Baku or Vagnoman are totally average.
Centre-backs (Draw)
Stones is nearly world-class in my opinion....Guehi looks fantastic....Tomori would be a good option too (Oh Southgate
Rüdiger is a very good.....Thiaw could be a good option for the future.....Süle has a couple of problems.....Schlotterbeck looks sometimes great and sometimes shocking......Ginter, Tah, Bella-Kotchap or Koch are average.
Left-backs (Point for England)
Shaw and Chilwell (Even Trippier in this position) are so much better than Gosens, Raum, Halstenberg or Günter.
I say sack him and give Kuntz the job - also for the banter. He‘s Löw 2.0 and we had more than enough of that. His track record is ridiculously bad, he changed our defensive setup around 20 times in 22 games - it’s as clueless now as it can get - and our pool of players is good enough to put in much different performances.
Why he refuses to play Füllkrug from the start is also beyond me. Actually it‘s not since he just doesn’t have the name and lobby yet usually helps our pointless setup tremendously - just shows that Flick, like Löw, deep down is a coward.
Why he refuses to play Füllkrug from the start is also beyond me. Actually it‘s not since he just doesn’t have the name and lobby yet usually helps our pointless setup tremendously - just shows that Flick, like Löw, deep down is a coward.
Kuntz would have been the ideal choice to succeed Löw at that point. Nobody would have been suited better to leading the change to a younger generation of players, after his very successful tenure with the U21 national team (two european championships).
I don't think "ideal" would have been the word people would have used if the federation went with Kuntz over Flick and I don't think there's much reason to believe he'd be doing great either.
I also don't think Flick is overly driven by lobbyism, he's given quite a few players a chance before some public hype mandated it and Füllkrug is no world class player either. I don't think it's that unreasonable to start with a "midfielderish" striker, as games are often calm and closed at the start and then bring on the somewhat limited striker later on, when spaces open up.
I think in recent games the team hasn't functioned on a level where you get to worry about your striker choice, because a player like Füllkrug would probably have starved upfront.
I also don't think Flick is overly driven by lobbyism, he's given quite a few players a chance before some public hype mandated it and Füllkrug is no world class player either. I don't think it's that unreasonable to start with a "midfielderish" striker, as games are often calm and closed at the start and then bring on the somewhat limited striker later on, when spaces open up.
I think in recent games the team hasn't functioned on a level where you get to worry about your striker choice, because a player like Füllkrug would probably have starved upfront.
Except that he reached three finals and won two of them in three tournaments with mostly the same bunch of mediocre players who know don't get anything done.
First of all - we do have gigantic problems on the highest levels of the rotten DFB - so I agree of course that the manager, be it Flick or Kuntz or whoever, has less than ideal working conditions.
Flick has the sextuple with Bayern in his CV so this always was going to be his job if he really wanted to - and they tried to spin it as a positively „continuation“ of the Löw era without Löw, which was and is a colossal blunder. We‘re on a huge downward trend for about 5-6 years that started with a historically bad WC 2018 and right now we‘re looking even worse.
Füllkrug is just an example (of many). Flick can‘t solve his midfield setup, he can‘t solve his defense and he obviously can‘t find a proper solution for our attackers. We don‘t need worldclass players to perform much better - just look at all those countries that convincingly defeated us lately, are they stacked with wc talents? We need a functioning hierarchy, a well structured plan and an inspiring manager - pretty sure we have none of that and I don‘t see where it‘s coming from in the next couple of months.
And Kuntz imho showed countless times that he is capable of setting up a strong collective within the boundaries of a NT. But don‘t get me wrong: now it‘s too late for that anyway. We‘d need a Klopp level of magican who could produce a 180 degree turnaround and that‘s not going to happen. Pretty grim times.
They obviously should be doing better, but look at the teams they are putting out. Not exactly anything special.
I don't think you can compare the u21 context with a WC or Euros at all and it's not like Kuntz' football was mind blowing either.
I'm obviously not endorsing Flick at the moment either. But the Völler appointment shows me that the DfB doesn't have a real desire for reform yet. So personally I'd rather not see it all blamed on the coach and if Flick will find success then that would be good, but if this is another Völler (oops) , Ribbeck era the I don't think that would be so bad in the long term either.
I'm obviously not endorsing Flick at the moment either. But the Völler appointment shows me that the DfB doesn't have a real desire for reform yet. So personally I'd rather not see it all blamed on the coach and if Flick will find success then that would be good, but if this is another Völler (oops) , Ribbeck era the I don't think that would be so bad in the long term either.
Who was a massive failure with usTbf, Austria has Ralf Rangnick
...
I jest Caf, calma!
Think we‘re mostly on the same page but regardless the context re DFB, Flick has spectacularly failed so far and with the Euro at home coming up I don‘t see a positive in letting him moderate „the process“ any longer. Back in the day when we didn‘t have worldclass players on every position and a wc at home coming up at least we had Klinsmann who (at that time) could still instill some fantasy of postive progress despite mediocre results - and at least the football seemed way more attractive than before him.
We don‘t need to play mind blowing football - almost no NT does that - we need a coherent unit with a manager that has the guts to say: „this is my core unit (with all their failures and negatives) and my core system, I‘m building our squad around that idea.“ and then sticks to it - but that would mean to come out of the comfy zone and risk something which Flick is not going to do. Now he takes cover behind the (nonexisting) process and experienced players that don‘t perform, although most of them do at their home clubs to some extent.
Kuntz imho wouldn‘t be too shy to insert an Andrich or Füllkrug kind of no-name player that still is stabilizing the system significantly - even if that would mean to bench Goretzka or Gnabry permanently for example.
It will be so funny should Germany lose against Austria and Turkey in November
Who was a massive failure with us
aye, it was tragic to watchYou're speculating that he would play fairly random players from Bremen and Leverkusen, who a few years ago wouldn't even have been called up.. ..like it would make a difference.
Look at Bayern, is EMCM worldclass? Certainly not, yet they performed completely differently and infinetly better with him on the pitch. It‘s not about putting the biggest names on the pitch but those that fit your preferred system the best (which should be a system that let your key players shine as much as possible while covering up for deficits from mediocre players).
If he keeps up crashing seemingly mindlessly around it will make it look like Bayern won the sextuple (during the peak of corona protocols) despite him, not because of him.
Anyway, seems like we don‘t agree here, which is fine.
Germany are lucky to be hosting it, I reckon they would've struggled to qualify.
Surprised to see them struggling. There's always that perception that even when Germany doesn't have great players/strong teams they still find a way.
Has there ever been a bigger fall from grace for a manager? From winning everything with Bayern one minute to being badly exposed as a clueless bum shortly after.
#KloppIn