Rock paper scissors?
Gun shots outside Parliament: Police shoot assailant following car attack on Westminster Bridge
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@predator there have been many, here's two recent ones:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/rory-7-on-how-to-stop-homegrown-islamic-extremists.419617/
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/whats-the-alternative-to-bombing-isis.420046/
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/rory-7-on-how-to-stop-homegrown-islamic-extremists.419617/
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/whats-the-alternative-to-bombing-isis.420046/
A critical contributor to UK Islamist Terrorism is the pervasive Islamaphoboia that exists across society. This includes cartoons but is much bigger and encompasses all forms of journalism. Unfortunately a very few people (0.01%) in the country cant emotionally tolerate this abuse. These people are located by ISIS recruiters and are then taken down the path to self-sacrifice.
Thats the ball game.
All I've read in this thread is philosophical claptrap which is far removed for the reality of life. I don't support this violence in any way, and yet I've been personally abused for providing a solution (and I've actually contributed to increasing the safety of British people from this curse, as opposed to just rant shite on a forum).
So I wont comment anymore about philosophy, but welcome a debate on solutions: Maybe we'll crack it here and we can then propose to the authorities.
Do you understand the principle of debating the post not the poster?
If you have read through this thread, you'll see Ive stated many times that the problem is based around 0.01% of Muslims. So you can stop huffing and puffing about your dad.
Ill also accept your first line that you are incapable of providing a solution beyond your simple ideology position.
I think you misunderstood my post, I worded it poorly perhaps. It was directed at sammsky's argument that as long as west allows people to mock Islam, it should accept consequences of violent retaliation by some extremists. If you are offended enough by such mockery to the extreme of violent actions then you are incompatible with most of the western societies.
Thats the current status quo, which accepts events like yesterday as collateral damage.
But we have countless posters throwing toys about that, and one advocating that all UK muslims are expelled.
Must, not should. Its an important distinction.
Again I ask, how you going to find those who are incompatible? Or do you propose expelling all UK Muslims?
So in theory, any Muslim committing any crime can be claimed by ISIS as their own.
Pedro already gave one. Follow the law of the land, protest peacefully if you must. We have already seen with Trump that if any real discriminatory law is passed against Muslims, many western people do stand against it. Moaning and passing excuses over violent retaliation due to being 'offended' is counterproductive.
They've raised over £100k for the murdered policeman's widow and child.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/31545...h-palmer-just-giving-page-westminster-terror/
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/31545...h-palmer-just-giving-page-westminster-terror/
That's what they will do.
Let's see if he made a video or statement in advance professing his alliegiance to al-Baghdadi, as other sole-attackers have done.
When 15 out of 2,000,000 Muslims choose extreme violence, pls tell me how you'll deal with it. You keep avoiding the question.
I've stated many times in this thread that I do not support violent extremism in any way, and have spent part of my career trying to fight it. So stop implying that I do. Its cheap, lazy and false.
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That's a great gesture, but damn you for making me click on a Sun link!
In the article, it says they've since reached over £200,000.
Edit, my bad. Increased the target to £200,000. They've raised over £150,000.
This is a jaded debate but for me the crux is that many moderate Muslims hold extremist views (e.g. a significant majority approve of death for apostasy). When the moderates hold views like this, it's easy to see why the extremists are so bad.
I don't hold as low opinion of Muslims in western countries as you. They have shown that they are also disposing of regressive customs and ideas after living in liberal societies. As long as liberals and reformers in Muslim community get support, the conflict would only reduce. In country like US, it is already much less pronounced than Europe. Muslims in US have integrated much much better and IIRC they were no violent protests over cartoons or any such rubbish in US.
Oh wow. The Sun donated £10k tbf. Nice to get the thread back on track, however briefly.
so basically you dont know what the feck you're talking about. thought so.
Do what? What is to be done other than investigate the crime and punish the perpetrators?
Your post I initially quoted was pretty much an excuse to justify such actions. If western society were to give in to and lessen freedom of speech. It would embolden religious extremists even more. (Like @berbatrick said this happened in India and the result is a regressive ban culture). You may not like it but the solution is absolutely to mock even more. Even if it means that in short term, more such incidents happen, it is the only way to establish supremacy of a value system.
You're basically defending the collateral damage and accuse him of not knowing what he's on about. Stop pretending to be a realist of some sort. The solution is obvious even if you refuse to see it.
Most of the most severe have gone to Kings College Hospital because its a major trauma centre. I do know a few of the ones at STH but can't really say outside of a professional environment. Sorry.
In just the last 30 days.... there have been 132 Islamic attacks in 23 countries, in which 989 people were killed and 1133 injured
Thats 30,500 attacks since 9/11...all over feckin' cartoons???
So you support and accept the collateral damage. Good.
I prefer a world without this friction or anger. Freedom to insult or injure is not a good thing. But thats just me.
I don't think it matters whether that video was made or not. In this post-truth era, ISIS can go online and claim responsibility and that will gain traction among their supporters whether or not the perp ever met or talked to anyone affiliated with the organisation.
It's a strategy that is incredibly hard to counter. Rile up islamists the world over by spreading online propaganda, then hope that the most unhinged amongst them will do something terrible so they can claim it as a victory for their cause. Without ever exposing themselves to any risk or any need to create any kind of real life, globalised network. It's very hard to see a way for it to ever be stopped.
This is not meant in a derogatory or argumentative way but you keep asking us all for solutions. What are your solutions beyond regressive laws against freedom of speech? Telling everyone they don't know what the feck they are talking about because you dont agree with them isn't a solution.
I don't really see the point. If you believe in God in whatever form then fair enough, if you don't then thats fair enough too but mocking the other side is pointless and achieves nothing.
Is she dead in the end?Found out this morning about the lady that died on the bridge and the 48 year old police officer, father and husband.
Because they WON'T provide an alternative solution and instead engage in philosophical claptrap that has no practical merit. that tells me the person doesn't really know what they are talking about.
I've done the mental gymnastics on this subject, know its parameters and so have a point of view. I'm yet so see many others so far.
...of Islam. Let's be clear about that because you seem to brush that under the rug there in hopes that no one will notice. I don't want to begrudge anyone their beliefs but that religion is used to justify atrocities more than any other in the current era. That means there's a problem and it can't be addressed by saying that most followers aren't like that, even though it is true.
Proofreading statements where you comment on the intellectual ability of others is always advisable.
...of Islam. Let's be clear about that because you seem to brush that under the rug there in hopes that no one will notice. I don't want to begrudge anyone their beliefs but that religion is used to justify atrocities more than any other in the current era. That means there's a problem and it can't be addressed by saying that most followers aren't like that, even though it is true.
Proofreading statements where you comment on the intellectual ability of others is always advisable.
Vastly incorrect: The reasons for the VAST majority of 'atrocities in the current era' is a direct result of US/European foreign policy inspired by the geo politics of oil. Its happening across the Middle East right now.
Did you know 40 people were killed day before yesterday in Syria because of bad intel by 'the allies'?
...of Islam. Let's be clear about that because you seem to brush that under the rug there in hopes that no one will notice. I don't want to begrudge anyone their beliefs but that religion is used to justify atrocities more than any other in the current era. That means there's a problem and it can't be addressed by saying that most followers aren't like that, even though it is true.
Proofreading statements where you comment on the intellectual ability of others is always advisable.
I think he lost credibility on judging the intelligence of others when he posted his 911 conspiracy thread.
Ok, thanks anyway. Hope everyone is safe.
I've read from Romanian sources that the girl is in pretty critical condition.
Wahhabism is where the problem lies. Its the one common factor between the disperate terroist groups that will kill each other if left to their own devices.
It emanates from saudi arabia, home of 4/5ths of the 9/11 bombers and bin laden himself. It speads like a disease by saudis using their vast wealth to sponsor dedicated mosque builds and educational programs throughout the west,
And until we have politicians not in the pay of oil companies and with the cohones to stand in front of the world and state that the house of saud are sponsoring terrorism, it will never end.
It emanates from saudi arabia, home of 4/5ths of the 9/11 bombers and bin laden himself. It speads like a disease by saudis using their vast wealth to sponsor dedicated mosque builds and educational programs throughout the west,
And until we have politicians not in the pay of oil companies and with the cohones to stand in front of the world and state that the house of saud are sponsoring terrorism, it will never end.
Well how's that for a cop-out solution...blaming the West.
wayhay. here comes the cavalry so he can indulge in some Muslim bashing.
You know @Bill.s.preston If you actually see a bandwagon, you're way too late.
Time for me to duck out now.
Where are those numbers from, out of interest? Incredible stats if true.
From a legal point of view only more free speech and sticking to the principles of the rule of law can be the answer and that’s all the government can (and should) really do. These attacks itself are not a threat anyway, because in the grand scheme of things, they are fairly insignificant. The danger of these attacks is that society changes behavior/laws afterwards.
The big western media outlets and public intellectuals should have stand their ground after the Jyllands-Posten cartoon incident, instead of implicitly accepting the narrative that “many Muslims just can’t take a joke”. That is a horrifically condescending/ derogatory/patronizing attitude itself. Eliminate the risk by ridiculing Islam just like Christianity and other ideologies that get ridiculed on a daily basis. Normalize it. Tip toeing around it just creates resentment and opens the space for the far-right to capture this topic. Muslims should neither need nor get "safe-spaces" in public, just like Christians or Atheists shouldn't get that.
Your whole narrative about accepting collateral damage is quite misleading. It implies a responsibility, that doesn’t exist. Only the perpetrators of these crimes are responsible; that’s how we ascribe agency in all other contexts. The actual risk of these crimes in western countries is on a level, that doesn’t warrant to giving up civil liberties.
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I was referring to terror attacks in the west, apologies for the lack of clarity. Justification allows perpetrators to be at peace with the things they do. Motives may be entirely as you indicate.
I did, in fact, they were killed in two separate incidents. I pay attention to the West's actions there.
From one Muslim brother to another, @sammsky1 you come across as seriously naive and ignorant.
There's been a number of excellent points brought up throughout this thread and you continue to rant aimlessly while missing the point.
You've essentially initiated your very own echo chamber in this thread.
There's been a number of excellent points brought up throughout this thread and you continue to rant aimlessly while missing the point.
You've essentially initiated your very own echo chamber in this thread.