Dude, if you can't realise that even 1.2% of 300 million plus is a lot larger than 1.4% of 60 million, I'm definitely wasting my time here.
Gun control
- Thread starter ukbob
- Start date
So the US has a worse problem at everything because they have more people? Seriously?
And then need guns or something?
And then need guns or something?
You're not as witty as you think you are. You know why this digression about drug problems came up.
I am actually. Ask anyone.
Well not anyone. Anyone who counts.
Bury's figures show that drug use is nearly as prevalent on the UK as the US (in fact may be more so if you include Scotland, Wales and NI).
Well not anyone. Anyone who counts.
Bury's figures show that drug use is nearly as prevalent on the UK as the US (in fact may be more so if you include Scotland, Wales and NI).
Bury's drug figures show that the UK has a similar rate of drug use as the US. It doesn't show that the UK has an equivalent market - the US is bigger, has more people, has more drug users and by implication, is a bigger drugs market than the UK. It's not complicated.
A bigger market for drugs attracts more gangs - more competition in an extra-legal market usually means more violence.
The violence couldn't happen on anywhere the same scale without easily available guns - legal, stolen legal and illegal. Nowt to do with gross numbers of users.
You can't get away from the fact that the data is very consistent - more guns = greater death rate. Rate not gross numbers.
You can't get away from the fact that the data is very consistent - more guns = greater death rate. Rate not gross numbers.
The drugs came up because you raised them as the reason for the greater number of gun deaths, the same with the gangs, despite the fact I've shown you that 80% of gun deaths in the US have no drug or gang relation and that if you remove the number of gun deaths our murder rates are nearly identical which suggests that the 66% of your murders carried out with firearms are an addition caused purely by the presence of the guns, not gangs, nor drugs.
It's not you wasting your time here, it's us wasting our time, because you clearly cannot see past the standard NRA bullshit.
PS. The size of the population doesn't come into it at all, the similar drug usage rates means there are a similar number of dealers/gangs per capita. Add in the fact the UK has 262 people per sq km vs 32 in the US which should reduce, not increase your murder rate.
It's not you wasting your time here, it's us wasting our time, because you clearly cannot see past the standard NRA bullshit.
PS. The size of the population doesn't come into it at all, the similar drug usage rates means there are a similar number of dealers/gangs per capita. Add in the fact the UK has 262 people per sq km vs 32 in the US which should reduce, not increase your murder rate.
The UK has similar rates of drug use and a significantly higher population density. How that in any way translates to accepting a higher murder rate - ostensibly connected to the drug trade - in the less dense US, is beyond me.
Population per sq mile is a bit of a bogus stat especially if you use it to assume it actually shows how the population is distributed. Not that I am disagreeing with your overall point just saying that stat is useless in this conversation. The US has some caste areas of low population areas (Alaska, the Dakotas, Montana) along with some very densely populated areas.
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I agree the stat is pretty much a red herring in relation to the subject in question although the presence of large open spaces like Alaska is probably not that far from being balanced by Scotland, Wales, Cornwall and Salisbury Plain when you look at the different scales of the UK to US populations. The only reason for raising the gang/drug issue was to refute Andrew's claims that the reason for the high number of gun deaths was down to that when all the factual evidence says it is not, and then to point out that even if his premise were in any way true, the UK has similar problems on a similar scale per capita and as we are much more closely packed the pressure cooker effect should make us the more murderous of the two nations.
As with all the pro gun lobby in the US Andrew's modus operandi is to throw huge volumes of bogus evidence into the debate and stand firmly behind the guns don't kill people baloney, we've rather foolishly chosen to pick through the shit to strip the debate back down to the basic truth that the US has 3 times more murders than the UK despite them ostensibly being very similar cultures, with potentially greater exacerbating factors like population density in the UK when compared with the US (a comparison the NRA use freely to lambast anyone that compares Canada's shooting rates with those in the US). When you strip the murder rates back further and realise that 2/3 of those in the US are committed with a gun then the truth should be obvious even to Andrew, sadly I expect he'll just throw up another smoke screen of "evidence" and tell us again how guns are defensive, not offensive weapons.
As with all the pro gun lobby in the US Andrew's modus operandi is to throw huge volumes of bogus evidence into the debate and stand firmly behind the guns don't kill people baloney, we've rather foolishly chosen to pick through the shit to strip the debate back down to the basic truth that the US has 3 times more murders than the UK despite them ostensibly being very similar cultures, with potentially greater exacerbating factors like population density in the UK when compared with the US (a comparison the NRA use freely to lambast anyone that compares Canada's shooting rates with those in the US). When you strip the murder rates back further and realise that 2/3 of those in the US are committed with a gun then the truth should be obvious even to Andrew, sadly I expect he'll just throw up another smoke screen of "evidence" and tell us again how guns are defensive, not offensive weapons.
What about our shooting rates? Wait, I think I might understand what you're saying now. We have a good number of guns per capita but far and away fewer shooting incidents and even fewer mass shootings than our southern neighbours. Although it is debateable whether this is soley due to our stricter controls on firearms or perhaps also has some relation to our history of cooperative society (the first settlers here had to cooperate with the indigenous population and each other or death was imminent). We have our share of gun violence issues but they actually do tend to be limited to gangs and drugs with rare instances of some loon ambushing the police and even more rarely someone taking out their frustrations on a group of innocent people.
One of the more interesting things is that we have abandoned the registration of so called long guns and the streets have not become "soaked in blood" (a quote from some of the more vocal opponent of gun ownership up here). I think our most important controls are licencing, which includes restricting sales of ammunition to those who are licensed, and storage regulations; most guns need to be locked up with a few rural areas being exempted from this for non-restricted long guns. The US would do well to mandate that people lock up their guns when they are not under the owner's direct supervision or control.
There being no murders or shootings in Detroit for 48 hours made the news.
There was a similar story about a gun free 24 hours in Chicago. Amazing that such a stat is news.
308 murders in a year in one city is a positive change of pace ( 
)
)I've always wanted an AK47. The people's gun.
I heard about this, apparently some of them (in a different state) went into a Taco Bell or something, and ended up forcing the company to issue a no guns policy.
I wish guns were unnecessary in this country but its simply not the case in some neighborhoods.
Ok now this is just ridiculous. I know several gun owners but they're not this twattish
You know you are a whackjob when the NRA disowns you
You commie!
Just to put into perspective how dangerous some US cities are, at the very height of the troubles in Northern Ireland in 1972 there was 500 murders, that gave N.Ireland a murder rate of about 29. UK's murder rate today is about 1.2. Detroit's murder rate in 2013 was 47, New Orleans 50, Baltimore 37 and St Louis 34, these are just average years for them cities as well.
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What I actually said, if you weren't too fecking thick to comprehend basic English, was that there were many estates in the UK with gangs just as ruthless or violent as their US counterparts, but that the murder rates were far lower purely due to the almost complete absence of guns. The fact that you can't see that the huge presence of guns in public hands is the root cause of the ludicrously high murder rates in the US is obvious evidence that we're the blinkered ones here Andrew~Don't say that here; apparently some estate in Rochdale is much worse!
What I actually said, if you weren't too fecking thick to comprehend basic English, was that there were many estates in the UK with gangs just as ruthless or violent as their US counterparts, but that the murder rates were far lower purely due to the almost complete absence of guns. The fact that you can't see that the huge presence of guns in public hands is the root cause of the ludicrously high murder rates in the US is obvious evidence that we're the blinkered ones here Andrew~
Calm down lad. The only thing thick about me is my willy. You can't simultaneously argue that guns are 'too easy' to get in the UK and you could walk round the corner whenever you like and get one, yet at the same time suggest - for some unknown - that gangs in estates that are just as ruthless as American ones have somehow neglected to realise the fact that guns are so easy to get.
One of those statements is untrue, pick one and run with it.
Again you choose to misrepresent what I actually said, are you sure you're not a cretin? Illegal guns are available in the UK but you'd need to be a serious nutjob to want one, there's so few people armed that you don't actually need one unless you are planning to kill and the penalties if you are caught with one are very severe. The demand in the US for guns both legal and illegal is driven by the fact that you're a nation of congenital idiots who believe that guns should be handed out at birth as part of some god given right. The simple fact that this debate reignites every few weeks whenever the next idiot melts down and decides to take a few people with himself yet gun control is still seen as an alien concept ably demonstrates why it is completely pointless debating with you and your ilk.
lol good one m8
While not completely prevented, but at least stopped early in the rampage and stopped by people not armed with guns.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/06/justice/seattle-campus-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/06/justice/seattle-campus-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
I don't know why you're getting so wound up, but it is entertaining. And I'm not American, which I'm surprised you haven't noticed despite my mentioning it several times (guess who needs to learn reading comprehension?
).You said British gangs are just as violent and 'nutjob-y' as American ones, so you can't start saying British gangs all of a sudden have less of an incentive to kill than American ones just because it covers the logical inconsistency in everything you said.
Kind of late but....
Well UK is an island, US has Mexico as a border and all the drugs and illegals (not all) come from the south, Hispanic gangs have members that came from Honduras and Guatemala's death squad... don't compare gangs between the 2 countries.
Another day, another attempted mass shooting. Well at least it appears it was an attempted mass shooting, maybe the shooter only had a target or two in mind. This time at a school in Oregan. Coming on the heels of the shooting of 2 cops and one innocent bystander by some militia nuts in Las Vegas.
Jesus. I hope folks in my country as not just becoming numb to this. Though there is plenty of evidence to suggest they are (ie the fact that large death rates in major cities due to gun violence get barely a bat of the eye from so many).
I am not one of those "throw all the guns in the ocean" people (well that would polute the shit out of the ocean wouldn't it), but what we are doing in this country isn't working.
Next election, gun issues might be my number one factor in deciding who to vote for. Not that I did not take that into account before, but it has reached the top of the scale.
Jesus. I hope folks in my country as not just becoming numb to this. Though there is plenty of evidence to suggest they are (ie the fact that large death rates in major cities due to gun violence get barely a bat of the eye from so many).
I am not one of those "throw all the guns in the ocean" people (well that would polute the shit out of the ocean wouldn't it), but what we are doing in this country isn't working.
Next election, gun issues might be my number one factor in deciding who to vote for. Not that I did not take that into account before, but it has reached the top of the scale.
Numb is the right word unfortunately. I'm at a total loss with the situation. Raoul was asking for ideas that would work in today's political climate. Nail on the head right there... you could come up with a perfect solution that both sides like and it wouldn't even make it to a vote such is the across the aisle hate right now.
I've been numb to gun shootings for a while. Sandy Hook jolted me, seeing it's less than 50 miles from where I live, and the victims were young children. But nothing was done nationally afterwards, and that was the last nail in the coffin for me.
Right Wing AmeriKa's America's idea of gun control.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/12/bulletproof-blankets-body_n_5479885.html
Sales Of Bulletproof Blankets Beat Maker's 'Wildest Expectations
The alarming rate of school shootings across the country appears to have added an unsettling new item to parents' list of "back to school" items: bulletproof armor for their children. Among such items, the Bodyguard Blanket, a portable, bulletproof covering for children, has seen its sales exceed its manufacturer's expectations in less than two weeks on the market . . .
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/12/bulletproof-blankets-body_n_5479885.html
Sales Of Bulletproof Blankets Beat Maker's 'Wildest Expectations
The alarming rate of school shootings across the country appears to have added an unsettling new item to parents' list of "back to school" items: bulletproof armor for their children. Among such items, the Bodyguard Blanket, a portable, bulletproof covering for children, has seen its sales exceed its manufacturer's expectations in less than two weeks on the market . . .
What a mess that country is