Grenfell Tower Fire | 14th June 2017

Claymore said:
But this is the government through and through. Just like when there health or drug advisor told them ecstasy and cannabis were safer than alcohol they sacked him. Now their own fire experts warn of the high risks of these types of crammed in Judge Dredd housing blocks and they don't listen. Now people are dead.

They don't work for the people at all, they work for big business and old money families, there is no democracy in the UK. We just get a vote every 4 years and can only pick 1 of two parties in a riggged first past the post system, designed to make sure no one else can ever rise to the top, in which the people who cast votes minds are heavily influence by the rich peoples media they are bombarded with anyway.

Maybe one day lol....
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Yeah, know what you mean. We"ve had the Tories in government for 7 years now. Before that we had Labour in government for 13 years.
 


There was a caller into James O'Brien's show this morning, who thought that the figures were being kept low to quell the political reaction. As if 79 confirmed fatalities and a national scandal which has led to evacuations is somehow minor.

Regarding Lammy: we know that he sadly lost a friend in the fire, so this still could be a raw wound. On the other hand, i think he needs to stay above the Lily Allen type statements as such does him no credit at all. As an MP he'll be a leading figure throughout the inquiry process, and must be seen as a respected voice to apply as much pressure as possible.
 
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Sorry to be gruesome but has there been a final death toll or are they still searching?
 
Mr Hurley, who led a team of UK police officers to help identify British victims of the 9/11 attacks, said: "I like David Lammy, he is a very good constituency MP and he cares about people.

"But in this case he's called it wrong and by what he's doing, he's actually causing some people to take up that call that it's been covered up.

"The reality is that having investigated many, many fires in the past, the police will probably never know how many people were in that building.

"There is no question that the very top floors of the building are pretty well burnt out.

"And even though they're putting in specialist search teams to have a look, they'll be lucky to find the odd bone fragment and that's about all."
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Should imagine there's a fair bit of DNA testing still going on if the above is anything to go by.
 
Red Defence said:
Just to change the subject....11 storey tower block of flats in Germany (Wuppertal) has been evacuated now because of similar cladding.
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Glad that other countries are not waiting for the same to happen there
Red Defence said:
Should imagine there's a fair bit of DNA testing still going on if the above is anything to go by.
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I just don't understand why they're cant use other means to work out who was in there and did not come out. You have a set number of rooms. Most of the rooms will not have been sub-let; youll know exactly who was meant to be in there. Many of them may have had friends over at the time, in which case, someone will have said they are missing, so although that is difficult, it is solveable. Is there CCTV? Who is paying bills, on what bank accounts?

So 79 confirmed dead. How many missing and presumed dead?
 
I find it hard to believe there's 300 deaths they're not letting on about. Whether they're looking particularly hard for another 30 or so is another question.

(he posts gruesomely)

I would definitely reckon they want the thing pulled down asap, that's for sure.
 
rcoobc said:
Glad that other countries are not waiting for the same to happen there

I just don't understand why they're cant use other means to work out who was in there and did not come out. You have a set number of rooms. Most of the rooms will not have been sub-let; youll know exactly who was meant to be in there. Many of them may have had friends over at the time, in which case, someone will have said they are missing, so although that is difficult, it is solveable. Is there CCTV? Who is paying bills, on what bank accounts?

So 79 confirmed dead. How many missing and presumed dead?
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I'm sure they know how many are officially missing and they will be busy trying to identify them through DNA etc. Problems will arise if they have DNA that does not correspond to any of the missing. They will want to identify these and it might need a very thorough search before they can say they have found and identified all available remains.

Don't know whether the CCTV was damaged in the fire or not but if it's ok then it will help somewhat.

This sort of accident recovery and identification uses a lot of time and resources though as all of the people working on it will have their normal full time job to do at the same time. All the lab staff will have their regular work to carry on with as well as this extra. So will the firemen, police etc. It's exhausting work and should imagine many will have no choice but to work long overtime hours for some time yet.
 
It would also depend how hard the authorities might have been looking historically at who has had the tenancy & number (identity) of occupants.

In any event, a fair few were owner occupiers or THEY might have been subletting of course, and won't want to be letting (:rolleyes:) on.

The horrible truth might be that it suits everyone (except mortgage insurers) to have the death toll remain at 79-ish rather than double of that / approaching 200.
 
I'm sure the total will rise but knowing who was there, who is still missing, who the bodies they have found are etc etc takes time and there are processes and procedures to follow to make sure mistakes aren't made.

Given that there will have been undocumented people in the building and that some bodies may have been reduced to ash may complicate things further. I don't really see 79 deaths being any more acceptable than over 100 or even more so I don't even see much of a motive to downplay it.
 
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Wibble said:
I'm sure the total will rise but knowing who was there, who is still missing, who the bodies they have found are etc etc takes time and there are processes and procedures to follow to make sure mistakes aren't made.

Given that there will have been undocumented people in the building and that some bodies may have been reduced to ask may complicate things further. I don't really see 79 deaths being any more acceptable than over 100 or even more so I don't even see much of a motive to downplay it.
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I did read somewhere that one person reported 40 people in one of the flats, not sure how true this is.
79 deaths , 1 death is not acceptable.
Hopefully lessons have been learnt and this will never happen again
 
rcoobc said:
Properly probably
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Hope so!
Questions over the government’s testing regime for aluminium composite panels continued to grow with one expert warning: “[It] doesn’t necessarily reflect what is going to happen on a building.”

The government has given limited information about how the tests on cladding samples are being carried out by the Building Research Establishment. The Department for Communities and Local Government said it was undertaking combustibility tests on core materials, but experts have warned that cladding systems also need to be tested as a whole, including insulation materials and design features such as fire breaks.
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-100-failure-rate-in-high-rise-cladding-tests
 
Anyone else watched the Victoria show today? Show was hosted in Kensington with people affected by the tragedy.

It was one of the most tense and heated shows i've ever watched live.
 
"People won't want to give up easily," she said, adding that officials would likely also encounter other obstacles, like trying to find people who weren't expected to be at the tower or differentiating between siblings where little DNA remains.

The timing of the fire—after the recent deadly attacks in Manchester and London—also doesn't help.

"The capacity of labs to do this kind of testing is limited," Syndercombe Court said. "They're already working on forensic evidence from Manchester and London. This just adds to the backlog."

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2017-06-london-dna-id-victims.html#jCp
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This article explains some of the problems in forensically identifying victims.
 
Red Defence said:
This article explains some of the problems in forensically identifying victims.
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That's a graphic and harrowing article.

The people still spreading these conspiracies about the death toll being covered up need to give that a read.
 
But this is still the same Sir Ken Knight with the following on his CV:

Firefighter
Chief Fire Officer of the LFB
HM Chief Inspector of Fire Services



He's not some political plant without any relevant experience.
 
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RedSky said:
From what I can remember about a documentary the Towers had a design flaw, it didn't have a concrete inner core or support columns. The design instead was to use steel columns and encase them with fire proof foam but the problem was the impact of the plane blew off the foam and thus revealed the steel. Add high temperature fire and the steel heats up to a point where it structurally fails.

Grenfell tower had the inner core, it had the support columns, it was a well designed building. The flaw to Grenfell came with the modernising cost cutting.

Ultimately just because something is expensive doesn't mean it's designed well, The Titanic is a great example of this.
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This is a pretty good summary. If anyone wants more details just read the NIST report on it.
 


"Another broken promise - PM assured locals that they would be consulted over choice of who will lead Public Inquiry. Ignored again"

May promised them that they'd be consulted over who would lead the Inquiry, as well as promising them the Inquiry would be broad. Both promises broken.

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-06-28/...e-bick-to-lead-grenfell-tower-public-inquiry/

After meeting with survivors of the fire, Sir Martin said: "I've been asked to undertake this inquiry on the basis that it would be pretty well limited to the problems surrounding the start of the fire and its rapid development in order to make recommendations about how this sort of thing can be prevented in future.

"I'm well aware the residents and the local people want a much broader investigation and I can fully understand why they would want that - whether my inquiry is the right way in which to achieve that I'm more doubtful."
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It is becoming a bit 9/11 on the conspiracy theory front. A caller to LBC believed that 200 bodies were pulled out of the building by the fire brigade; presumably they have all been hidden away somewhere. Another, with some support from David Lammy, is that more people jumped than was reported by the media/emergency services.

Judges do have their rulings overturned, it is not unheard of. But what i thought missed the mark in this instance, was Moore-Bick's suggestion that preliminary findings could be released after a year. If it at all possible the Government should be urging a date which is is somewhat earlier than that IMO.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
It is becoming a bit 9/11 on the conspiracy theory front. A caller to LBC believed that 200 bodies were pulled out of the building by the fire brigade; presumably they have all been hidden away somewhere. Another, with some support from David Lammy, is that more people jumped than was reported by the media/emergency services.

Judges do have their rulings overturned, it is not unheard of. But what i thought missed the mark in this instance, was Moore-Bick's suggestion that preliminary findings could be released after a year. If it at all possible the Government should be urging a date which is is somewhat earlier than that IMO.
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It doesn't help that the scope of the investigation will be so narrow it's only going to repeat what we already know about sprinklers and cladding.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
It is becoming a bit 9/11 on the conspiracy theory front. A caller to LBC believed that 200 bodies were pulled out of the building by the fire brigade; presumably they have all been hidden away somewhere. Another, with some support from David Lammy, is that more people jumped than was reported by the media/emergency services.

Judges do have their rulings overturned, it is not unheard of. But what i thought missed the mark in this instance, was Moore-Bick's suggestion that preliminary findings could be released after a year. If it at all possible the Government should be urging a date which is is somewhat earlier than that IMO.
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I think that's about typical. Aircraft accident reports usually take about that long and I'd say this is quite similar in terms of complexity and evidence destroyed.
 
I know that the judge hinted as much, however the terms of reference are not yet confirmed. Nevertheless, one of Its purpose shall be to make recommendations (we do learn lessons eventually).

Criminal prosecutions are in the hands of the police and the CPS however. This doesn't preclude the possibility of a civil case down the road, should evidence stack up in the right ways.
 
11101 said:
I think that's about typical. Aircraft accident reports usually take about that long and I'd say this is quite similar in terms of complexity and evidence destroyed.
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I know, and in some cases it can be nearer two years. But if these are only going to be preliminary, something a little earlier than a year might be possible. We don't want to see the repeated postponements which afflicted Chilcott.

A pity that Lord Cullen is now in his 80s :: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Cullen,_Baron_Cullen_of_Whitekirk

Impressive record with regard to public inquiries.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
It is becoming a bit 9/11 on the conspiracy theory front. A caller to LBC believed that 200 bodies were pulled out of the building by the fire brigade; presumably they have all been hidden away somewhere. Another, with some support from David Lammy, is that more people jumped than was reported by the media/emergency services.

Judges do have their rulings overturned, it is not unheard of. But what i thought missed the mark in this instance, was Moore-Bick's suggestion that preliminary findings could be released after a year. If it at all possible the Government should be urging a date which is is somewhat earlier than that IMO.
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I find the conspiracy stuff hugely frustrating but with Hillsborough in the news it is a timely reminder that our authorities are not always open and honest.
 
He's going to discover that a freezer exploded, the fire in the flat was put out, but then the firefighters noticed that the cladding outside had caught fire.

The survivors want to know why they weren't listened to. They want to know who made the decisions. They want to know how far up local and national government it went. They want to know who had conflicts of interest and who benefited.
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40453054

Key parts:
The documents obtained by the BBC reveal contractors working for Kensington and Chelsea council were asked in 2014 to replace zinc cladding with a more economical aluminium version.
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and
Both types of cladding have the same official fire rating.
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Seems like it will come down to whether anyone told the councillor in charge it was an additional fire risk above the official safety rating, and who gave it that safety rating.
 
Lowlife.

CourtNewsUK @CourtNewsUK
Man in court accused of lying about losing his family in the Grenfell Tower to get accommodation plus £10k of clothes and household items
 
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