Grenfell Tower Fire | 14th June 2017

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Silva said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...a-safe-place-for-extremely-stupid-people.html

Noted cnut and potential Prime Minister Boris Johnson writing in the telegraph that health and safety is for extremely stupid people. Nothing to do with anything as serious as fire safety of course, but it's an attitude that exists throughout the conservative party. If you die, you probably deserved to.
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That's abit unfair as the quoted examples are mainly ludicrous! One could argue that alot of this noise means less time to focus on genuine health and safety measures being dealt with.

I'm not condoning Boris, he is one of the greatest threats to a successful future for the UK but this specific article isn't as damning as it's headline
 
sammsky1 said:
That's abit unfair as the quoted examples are mainly ludicrous! One could argue that alot of this noise means less time to focus on genuine health and safety measures being dealt with.

I'm not condoning Boris, he is one of the greatest threats to a successful future for the UK but this specific article isn't as damning as it's headline
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I'm not entirely sure he's being truthful with his examples there. Boris has a habit of outright bullshitting for whatever reason - take the bendy banana ban for example. The only thing in his article I can speak to is that Peanuts aren't actually nuts - and anything which may contain trace nuts has be labelled as such for people with allergies. The point is that it's just another example of the conservative fetish for deregulation.
 
Rams said:
Rather than making this a witch hunt against Theresa feckin May, can we get this thread back to the real issue here that is how on earth it was possible that polyethylene cladding was used in Grenfell Tower?
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I'd like to come in here for updates on the victims recoveries and how they're doing and the reasons etc instead of all this crap, yet another tragic thread turned into a political debate.
 
spwd said:
I'd like to come in here for updates on the victims recoveries and how they're doing and the reasons etc instead of all this crap, yet another tragic thread turned into a political debate.
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Every single aspect of this tragedy is political. From a council which has completely failed to listen to it's most vulnerable members, a government which has failed in its regulations and a prime minister completely out of touch with ordinary people. The fire was preventable, yet has claimed the lives of dozens of people. The response to it has been completely shambolic and rage inducing.
 
spwd said:
I'd like to come in here for updates on the victims recoveries and how they're doing and the reasons etc instead of all this crap, yet another tragic thread turned into a political debate.
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So what? This thread does not exist to meet your requirements.

Also what @Silva said
 
Someone might go to jail for this fire but I'd imagine, only if the products used (cladding, etc) can be proved to non code compliant.
And then it'll be a battle to see who authorized the use of such products and who was in charge of inspections.
Reading a little on a news site it seems that the cladding used is prohibited (on a building of this height) in some other countries but it wasn't clear if the cladding is prohibited in the UK, on high rises.
 
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I've seen something about the layout of the block and what the work done comprises. Some of which we've covered already.

24-27 floors, 4-6 flats per floor. located around a central space of staircase, gas, water & electric doings

Original heating is unclear but was through-block ie: entirely communal & was unreliable in recent times, also I'd presume similar for the supply of hot water. Quite a big basement jobby housing all the doings for this. And lots of concrete foundations according to the original architect.

So re-furb, double-glazing for everyone, new individual heating system for everyone - a boiler each & I guess, a timed central heating system per flat. Oh and this is clever, 9 extra flats while they're doing it.

OK, unless I'm corrected by you more technically knowledge-able chaps - the flat boilers all need all of gas, water, electric, )and a flue joining it to the outside). All that stuff coming via connection to the central shaft, innit? Flue - no idea.

There goes you're compartment integrity (according to me). What we've seen shows fire was able to spread in & across, vertically outside and possibly vertically inside? Zero containment of any kind anywhere that would mean - my speculation.

I'll see if I can re-find the article I've un-skilfully deduced that from.

here you go

http://www.grasart.com/blog/lancaster-west-estate-an-ideal-for-living
 
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Oh, and the cladding.

Most flats not likely to have more than 2 external walls, a very few might have 3, I suppose. Improved more efficient heating system, double glazing - this thermal value of the cladding to any single occupier starts to reduce very much for me. 2% off your heating bills, where you might even be using it more from it being more reliable.

I don't know really, I'm just promoting the cladding as bollocks with as many arguments as I can, regardless of whether they have any foundation.
 
Nice to see a pic of Prince William with his arms around some small lady, her face buried in his chest. I wouldn't expect the Queen to do it, but the younger generation of Royals have a very different approach.
 
SteveJ said:
d50c558f5d7b2ea1f54995a25ad61b72.jpg
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I thought Bankers have been / are being prosecuted for the LIBOR scandal Steve?
 
montpelier said:
Aye, in theory & some are owner-occupiers, so that should be easy enough. But tenancies get passed on & stuff. And some subletting & some people who won't be missed by anyone. We don't know the extent of that.

I think 58 missing is low, there's probably a fair few more than that in there.

58 as officially missing, fair enough, not a lie exactly. The dead ones can't report other each other though, can they? :(
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Surely that number includes everyone with a tennancy who is unaccounted for.

montpelier said:
New Conspiracy Theory

source: Twitter

it's getting about time the building fell over because the number of deaths can then be kept down from the totally ludicrous figures some are suggesting it is (300-400) <--- won't be allowed
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Twitter conspiracy theories, sounds legit.
 
WackyWengerWorld said:
Surely that number includes everyone with a tennancy who is unaccounted for.



Twitter conspiracy theories, sounds legit.
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I was wondering if they were using only confirmed identities in their figures, atm. Dunno if that's what you mean or we're saying similar thing slightly differently.

I suppose we'll see with the Twitter conspiracy if there's a sudden collapse or demolition. Doing it to keep the numbers down seems a long shot to me.

There is some downplaying of the scale of this though, I *reckon* - dunno how legit that downplaying might be, matter of opinion I suppose.
 
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Rams said:
Rather than making this a witch hunt against Theresa feckin May, can we get this thread back to the real issue here that is how on earth it was possible that polyethylene cladding was used in Grenfell Tower?
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Seconded.
 
spwd said:
I'd like to come in here for updates on the victims recoveries and how they're doing and the reasons etc instead of all this crap, yet another tragic thread turned into a political debate.
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As countless others have already said, it is an inherently political issue. Why someone would actively try and steer the conversation away from exploring the deeper issues is beyond me. People discussing this and having these conversations serves the victims and the public in general far better than online platitudes ever will.
 
I've just seen an interview on Facebook with a local resident who claims the death toll will be in the hundreds. She says there were roughly 600 residents in the tower and there hasn't been many survivors / victims. She insists that the government are hiding the true figure from us.

I do think the current death toll seems quite low although I guess they haven't definitively identified the bodies yet so maybe the figure will keep growing with time. I genuinely can't see how the gov could hide the true figure from the public.
 
A volunteer on Peston on Sunday saying victims are being given £10 by the council and that they cannot get the money that people have donated through to them. Says the whole thing has been an absolute disgrace and that people are still without anything.
 
esmufc07 said:
A volunteer on Peston on Sunday saying victims are being given £10 by the council and that they cannot get the money that people have donated through to them. Says the whole thing has been an absolute disgrace and that people are still without anything.
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It's a complete disgrace. The government should be running the show, not standing aside, pointing at Kensington and Chelsea Borough Council, saying "Nuh uh, it's these guys!"
 
predator said:
I've just seen an interview on Facebook with a local resident who claims the death toll will be in the hundreds. She says there were roughly 600 residents in the tower and there hasn't been many survivors / victims. She insists that the government are hiding the true figure from us.

I do think the current death toll seems quite low although I guess they haven't definitively identified the bodies yet so maybe the figure will keep growing with time. I genuinely can't see how the gov could hide the true figure from the public.
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Have we even had a figure of the missing yet? Its like they actually don't know who lived in the building.

They'll certainly know who got out as they'll be registering for aid.
 
Hammond says

My understanding is that the cladding in question , this flammable cladding which is banned in Europe and the US, is also banned here. That’s my understanding.”

Asked why it was used, he replied: “There are two separate questions. One is, are our regulations correct? Do they permit the right kind of materials and ban the wrong kind of materials.

“Second question is were they correctly complied with? And obviously that will be a subject that the [public] inquiry will look at. It will also be a subject that the separate criminal investigation will be looking at.”

On the lack of sprinklers in Grenfell Tower, and other buildings, he said: “My understanding is that the best expert advice is that retrofitting sprinklers may not always be the best technical way of ensuring fire safety in a building.”

Incredible if true that a building that large could be clad in illegal materials. Building control at Westminster council would be in a whole world of trouble if that is the case.

Smores said:
Have we even had a figure of the missing yet? Its like they actually don't know who lived in the building.

They'll certainly know who got out as they'll be registering for aid.
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Official police figures are 58 still missing.
 
Smores said:
Assume thats a figure of those who have been reported missing only? It'll be higher sadly
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Not sure TBH. I would have assumed by now that they would have got hold of the official documents pertaining to residency and that they would know all official residents that are missing but official parties have been pretty inept so far.
 
Smores said:
Have we even had a figure of the missing yet? Its like they actually don't know who lived in the building.

They'll certainly know who got out as they'll be registering for aid.
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My mum is in charge of some properties in East London and she says she never really knows how many people are living there. They did an eviction of a 2 bed flat a few months ago and there were 9 guys in it.

So in short, this could be way worse than we even think right now. I'm guessing the people in charge know this full well, which is why they want to keep it under a lid.
 
Just amazed by stuff coming out in Hammond's interviews this morning.

Firstly, that he's now saying the cladding used in Grenfell is actually banned in U.K. and shouldn't have been used.

Secondly, that Marr had to put to him words of fire service - that no one has ever died in a fire in UK in a building that had sprinklers.

Hammond's clearly a principled man but sticking to his line that 'sprinklers may not have helped' is just crazy...
 
GloryHunter07 said:
I thought Bankers have been / are being prosecuted for the LIBOR scandal Steve?
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Several bankers were jailed for Libor, the London whale trade and the HBOS small business lending scam.
Don't let that stand in the way of a good meme though. One issue is that no director-level bosses were done, which is why they've since brought in the Senior Managers Regime, giving them individual accountability.
predator said:
I've just seen an interview on Facebook with a local resident who claims the death toll will be in the hundreds. She says there were roughly 600 residents in the tower and there hasn't been many survivors / victims. She insists that the government are hiding the true figure from us.

I do think the current death toll seems quite low although I guess they haven't definitively identified the bodies yet so maybe the figure will keep growing with time. I genuinely can't see how the gov could hide the true figure from the public.
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Any estimate at figures is only a guess though. You never know how many got out, how many were away and how many had guests over.
Wouldn't someone notice if hundreds are still unaccounted for? My missus said Westfield yesterday was covered in missing person posters.
 
Redlambs said:
My mum is in charge of some properties in East London and she says she never really knows how many people are living there. They did an eviction of a 2 bed flat a few months ago and there were 9 guys in it.

So in short, this could be way worse than we even think right now. I'm guessing the people in charge know this full well, which is why they want to keep it under a lid.
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I'm sceptical of that position. I agree that there will have been a number of illegal residents in there but the number that will have not made phone calls during the fire or that will have no friends or family aware of them being there and now looking for them will be relatively small.

Maybe I'm naive but I think modern media and the general connectivity that we now have makes this conspiracy theory unlikely.
 
Incredible response from govt today that seemed to want to wait for 'expert' advice and the result of a public inquiry to determine whether water puts out fire.

Expect all tower blocks built 20+ years ago will be demolished in the next few years.
 
To think, one of the biggest reasons a lot of this Tory government want to leave the EU is so businesses aren't hampered by expensive regulations.

Regulations aren't there just to make things awkward for people, they're there to save lives and protect people's welfare.
 
Nuts said:
Just amazed by stuff coming out in Hammond's interviews this morning.

Firstly, that he's now saying the cladding used in Grenfell is actually banned in U.K. and shouldn't have been used.

Secondly, that Marr had to put to him words of fire service - that no one has ever died in a fire in UK in a building that had sprinklers.

Hammond's clearly a principled man but sticking to his line that 'sprinklers may not have helped' is just crazy...
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To be fair, if the outside was clad in something flammable then he might be right. It would surely have bought those poor people some extra time to escape though.
 
Oscie said:
Incredible response from govt today that seemed to want to wait for 'expert' advice and the result of a public inquiry to determine whether water puts out fire.

Expect all tower blocks built 20+ years ago will be demolished in the next few years.
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Clearly none of them played enough pokemon as children.
Nuts said:
Just amazed by stuff coming out in Hammond's interviews this morning.

Firstly, that he's now saying the cladding used in Grenfell is actually banned in U.K. and shouldn't have been used.

Secondly, that Marr had to put to him words of fire service - that no one has ever died in a fire in UK in a building that had sprinklers.

Hammond's clearly a principled man but sticking to his line that 'sprinklers may not have helped' is just crazy...
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Why is Hammond even talking about this?
 
Nuts said:
Just amazed by stuff coming out in Hammond's interviews this morning.

Firstly, that he's now saying the cladding used in Grenfell is actually banned in U.K. and shouldn't have been used.

Secondly, that Marr had to put to him words of fire service - that no one has ever died in a fire in UK in a building that had sprinklers.

Hammond's clearly a principled man but sticking to his line that 'sprinklers may not have helped' is just crazy...
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You missed the best bit out. When he was asked about "fit for habitation" Hammond firstly said he didn't vote on it. Marr, thankfully, actually did a bit of research so was in a position to remind him that he'd actually voted against it.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
I'm sceptical of that position. I agree that there will have been a number of illegal residents in there but the number that will have not made phone calls during the fire or that will have no friends or family aware of them being there and now looking for them will be relatively small.

Maybe I'm naive but I think modern media and the general connectivity that we now have makes this conspiracy theory unlikely.
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I wouldn't be so sure. I'm not necessarily calling it a conspiracy either, but I do know that sort of thing goes on a lot more than people seem to want to believe.

Hopefully that isn't the case here. I would be very surprised if anyone knows the true full count of residents though.
 
The council are ridiculous. Family member looking for missing loved ones tells BBC there isn't even a central information tent or person at the site, just charities doing what they can. The councils only response to BBC questions is..

BBC said:
Outside the Westway sports centre where some tower residents are understood to be staying, a council media spokeswoman said only: "We are very pleased with all the donations we have received. We have had to stop accepting donations.
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Like this was fecking Children in Need day. Appalling response.
 
Redlambs said:
I wouldn't be so sure. I'm not necessarily calling it a conspiracy either, but I do know that sort of thing goes on a lot more than people seem to want to believe.

Hopefully that isn't the case here. I would be very surprised if anyone knows the true full count of residents though.
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If the government are trying to disappear 100 - 300 people because they fear they may be liable for their deaths then it is a serious conspiracy.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
If the government are trying to disappear 100 - 300 people because they fear they may be liable for their deaths then it is a serious conspiracy.
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I said nothing like that. Maybe I should have added "for now" at the end of my post, but you are definitely reading something different to what I mean and for some reason trying to make it worse.

I'm simply saying it's entirely possible that they haven't been so usually quick to spout numbers because of the chance there's many more in that building than anyone knows. And that's a road and discussion they wouldn't want to go down.
 
Penna said:
Have the council moved these poor people into hotel rooms yet? If not, it's a disgrace.
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Rumours in today's papers that the government has told the council leaders to stay at home because of their failure to respond to the crisis, and is taking over direct central control.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Rumours in today's papers that the government has told the council leaders to stay at home because of their failure to respond to the crisis, and is taking over direct central control.
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I'm sure anyone who has ever dealt with a council over housing will agree they are woefully undertrained and extremely unhelpful at the best of times.

No surprise they don't seem to know what they are doing.
 
Redlambs said:
I said nothing like that. Maybe I should have added "for now" at the end of my post, but you are definitely reading something different to what I mean and for some reason trying to make it worse.

I'm simply saying it's entirely possible that they haven't been so usually quick to spout numbers because of the chance there's many more in that building than anyone knows. And that's a road and discussion they wouldn't want to go down.
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Sorry I was just doing sums from the confirmed rescues, the confirmed fatalities against the estimates of number of people that were in the block being banded about.

Anyway, I found this in The Mirror that states the emergency services are just following established procedure.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/what-official-death-toll-grenfell-10641711
 
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