Grenfell Tower Fire | 14th June 2017

ThomasEmil said:
From my perspective, politicians should be judged upon how they do politics in and outside of their country. If they're not the most pleasing people, well it blows, but then it's more a personal feat.
Churchill wasn't the most pleasing person in the world - hell from what I've read, he'd probably handled this worse than May. But he was a good politician at the important issues. Make a football analogy - A manager might not have the best way of dealing with his players, but if he is your leader you'd be best of supporting him.
Finally. If all this comes down to people wanting to point their frustration and anger of this horrible and tragic event, and then choosing whatever targets fits the majority most, then I get it. But the other way around seems unfair in my opinion.
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/17/tower-block-fire-warnings-grenfell-victims

That is why the heat is on her. She is going to have to answer some tough question in PMQs on Monday.

The reaction to her not visiting the victims in an appropriate way has been mostly party political for me. Corbyn and the Queen are hugely popular figures, Corbyn especially so in poor London areas. May, on the other hand, is loathed in those communities. Someone tried to attack Mayor Khan when he went down there so I think the security detail claims were sensible.

She is a cold rigid person though and People want to see emotion at times like these. I understand that but I think there are more important issues right now given The Mirror's front cover yesterday (I think) was panning May for not being as tactile as Corbyn and the Queen.
 
Silva said:


This is why we need an inquest, there should be no political involvement in the investigation.
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Look at it another way- it's on her head if it's deemed inadequate.
 
Can someone simply explain the difference between an inquiry and an inquest. I'm seeing people criticise May about this, but I don't really understand it..
 
Classical Mechanic said:
She is going to have to answer some tough question in PMQs on Monday.
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If anyone asks her why it took her X amount of time or why she didn't say, visit or do XYZ, then that in my opinion is far lower than whatever faux pas she is supposedly guilty of. That's petty point scoring off of a genuine tragedy and if said by certain people then will negate the other more well received visits as hollow and for political gain only (i.e. disgusting). If Corbyn criticises her in that regard I'll definitely think less of him, but I'm not sure he will. Can't say the same for all the other MP's though.
 
saivet said:
Can someone simply explain the difference between an inquiry and an inquest. I'm seeing people criticise May about this, but I don't really understand it..
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I asked the same thing a few pages back. @Sweet Square posted this. First minute or so explains it.

 
Vidic_In_Moscow said:
If anyone asks her why it took her X amount of time or why she didn't say, visit or do XYZ, then that in my opinion is far lower than whatever faux pas she is supposedly guilty of. That's petty point scoring off of a genuine tragedy and if said by certain people then will negate the other more well received visits as hollow and for political gain only (i.e. disgusting). If Corbyn criticises her in that regard I'll definitely think less of him, but I'm not sure he will. Can't say the same for all the other MP's though.
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We need to know the reasons why the amendments to fire safety regs have taken so long, details of the progress so far etc. But I agree, criticising her poor people skills and security arrangements would be cheap shots.

Silva said:
Hubris has been her defining characteristic in recent times.
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Not to mention her many enemies in the Tory party that will happily throw her under the bus if they become PM.

@Jippy

I posted a report on some tweets from a seemingly better qualified legal bod who said that there are inaccuracies in that Lawyer's claims that basically rubbish up the essence of her accusations.
 
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ThomasEmil said:
From my perspective, politicians should be judged upon how they do politics in and outside of their country. If they're not the most pleasing people, well it blows, but then it's more a personal feat.
Churchill wasn't the most pleasing person in the world - hell from what I've read, he'd probably handled this worse than May. But he was a good politician at the important issues. Make a football analogy - A manager might not have the best way of dealing with his players, but if he is your leader you'd be best of supporting him.
Finally. If all this comes down to people wanting to point their frustration and anger of this horrible and tragic event, and then choosing whatever targets fits the majority most, then I get it. But the other way around seems unfair in my opinion.
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Well, yes - that's the point. They're being judged for having done a poor job on this, both in their response and during the build-up.
 
I see. Well if the media/other politician put to to May, maybe that will force her to either switch it or give a good explanation as to why.
 
ManUtd1999 said:
What is her governing philosophy (if she has any)?
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Rigid social conservatism I'd say. Aside from that...your guess is as good as mine. She's tried to portray herself as a figure of strength, and in an incident like this when she's been expected to show that she's failed.
 
Silva said:
Me, Me, Me. I, I, I.
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Cheesy said:
Rigid social conservatism I'd say. Aside from that...your guess is as good as mine. She's tried to portray herself as a figure of strength, and in an incident like this when she's been expected to show that she's failed.
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I don't know which one of these is worse!

I remember her portraying strength with "Brexit means Brexit" right after she took over as PM. That has probably faded quickly.

jackofalltrades said:
Conservative and conservative, strong, stable and transparent government plus Anglicanism.
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Is this the way she behaves or the way she claims to?
 
Classical Mechanic said:
I'm not convinced. Sounds like a monumental gamble to attempt a cover up that way. I need to hear more details on if what she is doing is normal and if it really does hinder transparency.
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Politicians have done it before and there's little reason to think they won't do it again. There have already been mutterings from the council that the residents themselves approved the renovation and declined to have sprinklers fitted, for example - it doesn't take much imagination to see how they'll try to pass the buck.
 
ManUtd1999 said:
I don't know which one of these is worse!

I remember her portraying strength with "Brexit means Brexit" right after she took over as PM. That has probably faded quickly.


Is this the way she behaves or the way she claims to?
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Strong and stable was her campaign slogan and she wants to keep the Brexit negotiations secret.
 
Silva said:
Politicians have done it before and there's little reason to think they won't do it again. There have already been mutterings that the residents themselves approved the renovation and declined to have sprinklers fitted, for example - it doesn't take much imagination to see how they'll try to pass the buck.
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A cover up these days would be so much much harder for a case with exposure like this. The modern media, leaks and I'm sure hacktivists would be all over it.

I agree that people will be trying to pass the buck but I do believe the truth will out. Maybe I am naive in this case.
 
Silva said:
It was reported in other places too, as Nick Clegg alleged it.
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Just saying there's plenty of facts and evidence to use as a stick to beat her, so we don't need ropier sources.
Classical Mechanic said:
@Jippy

I posted a report on some tweets from a seemingly better qualified legal bod who said that there are inaccuracies in that Lawyer's claims that basically rubbish up the essence of her accusations.
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Sorry CM, not clear what this is about.
 
ManUtd1999 said:
Thanks.

Maybe she should develop better political senses and hire better advisers.
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She was Home Secretary for a long time, which means she's not daft. In some ways maybe fate has dealt her a terrible hand. Since she became PM there have been 3 terrorist attacks, which must have played a part in her downfall. And now Grenfell.

Some people are born great, some achieve greatness and some have it thrust upon them. Then there's Terri May.
 
jackofalltrades said:
She was Home Secretary for a long time, which means she's not daft. In some ways maybe fate has dealt her a terrible hand. Since she became PM there have been 3 terrorist attacks, which must have played a part in her downfall. And now Grenfell.

Some people are born great, some achieve greatness and some have it thrust upon them. Then there's Terri May.
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Do you not think that she claimed she'd bring down immigration to impossible levels with her powers as home secretary was a bit daft? No?
 
Very long govt release just now.

Press release
UK to observe minute's silence for victims of Grenfell Tower fire
From:Prime Minister's Office, 10 Downing Street, Department of Health, The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt MP, and The Rt Hon Theresa May MP Published:17 June 2017
The United Kingdom will observe a minute’s silence at 11am on Monday 19 June in remembrance of those who lost their lives and all those affected by the fire at Grenfell Tower.

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The United Kingdom will observe a minute’s silence at 11am on Monday 19 June in remembrance of those who lost their lives and all those affected by the fire at Grenfell Tower.

The silence will be marked at all Government buildings and other organisations may follow suit.

On Friday the Prime Minister met with survivors, residents, volunteers and community leaders where she set out a comprehensive package of support for victims of the tragedy.

This includes:

A commitment that victims who lost their homes be rehoused within a maximum of three weeks;
A £5 million Grenfell Tower Residents’ Discretionary Fund, made immediately available; and
A guarantee to rehouse people as close as practically possible to where they previously lived.
Following the second meeting of the Grenfell Tower Recovery Taskforce, chaired by the Prime Minister, the Government is today announcing further measures to support those who lost loved ones and members of the emergency services:

Providing an additional £1.5m to pay for mental health support to the Emergency Services through Mind’s Blue Light Programme, including to ensure those involved in the response to the Grenfell Tower fire are able to receive targeted support should they need it; and
Ensuring there is tailored bereavement support for the families of those who have lost loved ones, those who have family members still missing or have been affected by the tragedy. We will offer each family support from their own named mental health practitioner, in addition to the support they receive from the police Family Liaison Officers.
Prime Minister Theresa May said:

The residents of Grenfell Tower, families who have lost loved ones, and the emergency services who have been working so hard to help them have been through some of the most harrowing and traumatic experiences imaginable. As we do everything we can to help them, we will make sure they have the counselling and emotional support they need in the difficult days, weeks and years ahead.

Secretary of State for Health Jeremy Hunt said:

What we have witnessed at Grenfell is truly horrific and my thoughts are with all those affected by this terrible tragedy. We are ready to do everything we can to help – which is why the NHS will be offering specialist bereavement support to all of the bereaved families.

I would like to pay tribute to our heroic emergency services for their response - particularly those NHS staff who once again have gone above and beyond in order to provide outstanding, compassionate care.

Paul Farmer, Chief Executive of Mind, said:

This funding enables us to extend and expand Mind’s Blue Light Programme so that we can continue to support and reach more people who work in the emergency services. As recent terrible events in London and Manchester have brought to light, Blue Light workers do an extremely challenging job, encountering difficult and traumatic situations. That’s why it’s so important that comprehensive, ongoing mental health support is available in the short and long term.

If a family is in need of extra psychological support, or if a Family Liaison Officer believes that they are and obtains the agreement of the family, the bereavement pathway announced today will provide a named NHS mental-health practitioner to provide that specific support.

Additional information:
1) LIBOR provided £10m between 2014 and 2016 to support Emergency Service Charities, including Blue Light mental health projects. At the Autumn Statement in 2016 the Government committed a further £2.3m to the Ambulance Services Charity and £1.5m to MIND for additional Blue Light Mental Health. Today the government is announcing an additional £1.5m for Blue Light Mental Health Support.

2) Mind is delivering the Blue Light Programme to provide mental health support for emergency services staff and volunteers from ambulance, fire, police and search and rescue services across England and Wales. Thousands of staff and volunteers across these services have actively challenged mental health stigma, learnt more about mental health and made positive changes in their approach to wellbeing with the support of the Blue Light Programme so far. More detail here:
https://www.mind.org.uk/news-campaigns/campaigns/bluelight/

3) To provide a comprehensive government response to the tragedy the Prime Minister set up the dedicated Grenfell Tower Recovery task force, chaired by her with representation from a number of Whitehall departments including the Treasury, Home Office and Department for Communities & Local Government.
 
WackyWengerWorld said:
Do you not think that she claimed she'd bring down immigration to impossible levels with her powers as home secretary was a bit daft? No?
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I'm referring to her longevity in a particularly difficult post, but she got away with a lot of daft things. Maybe she was canny and talked about her "aspiration" to do such a thing.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
That's what people said the Iraq Enquiry would be.

Here is an alternative take

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/t...to-demand-inquest-not-inquiry/5061588.article

McKay said a public inquiry, under the Public Inquiry Act 2005, 'will almost certainly' be chaired by an independent judge. Victims and other interest groups will be 'core participants' and can be represented by lawyers. Their lawyers can, under the Public Inquiry Rule, ask questions of any witness subject to the chair's permission.

An inquest has a narrow frame of reference, McKay said. The deaths at Grenfell Tower will likely qualify as article 2 inquests, which have a wider frame of reference.

McKay added: 'Contrary to the commentator's views last night advocates don't "cross-examine" witnesses as an inquest is inquisitorial by nature. Advocates and other interested persons can ask relevant questions. There is no requirement on the part of the witness to answer a question that might incriminate them.

'An inquest may also avoid areas likely to be the subject of a criminal investigation. Importantly an inquest cannot apportion blame - in terms of civil of criminal liability - that is not the function of an inquest. Unlike a public inquiry. Caution should be exercised by those thinking an inquest is a panacea... I'm not saying public inquiries are not without difficulties but the idea they are an attempt to divert accountability is deeply flawed.'

https://twitter.com/simonmckay?lang=en
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Ah, yeah. Did see that and it was an interesting post. Maybe it's not as clear cut as some folk are suggesting, which isn't overly surprising, given how so many on social media are now suddenly experts on building regulations and inquest/inquiry procedure.
 
Rather than making this a witch hunt against Theresa feckin May, can we get this thread back to the real issue here that is how on earth it was possible that polyethylene cladding was used in Grenfell Tower?
 
I'm reading on reddit that anyone who didn't go to council shelters won't be offered a new home. That better not be true. Would basically mean if you found a sofa to sleep on you don't get a new place to live in, it would be outrageous.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Here is an alternative take

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/t...to-demand-inquest-not-inquiry/5061588.article

McKay said a public inquiry, under the Public Inquiry Act 2005, 'will almost certainly' be chaired by an independent judge. Victims and other interest groups will be 'core participants' and can be represented by lawyers. Their lawyers can, under the Public Inquiry Rule, ask questions of any witness subject to the chair's permission.

An inquest has a narrow frame of reference, McKay said. The deaths at Grenfell Tower will likely qualify as article 2 inquests, which have a wider frame of reference.

McKay added: 'Contrary to the commentator's views last night advocates don't "cross-examine" witnesses as an inquest is inquisitorial by nature. Advocates and other interested persons can ask relevant questions. There is no requirement on the part of the witness to answer a question that might incriminate them.

'An inquest may also avoid areas likely to be the subject of a criminal investigation. Importantly an inquest cannot apportion blame - in terms of civil of criminal liability - that is not the function of an inquest. Unlike a public inquiry. Caution should be exercised by those thinking an inquest is a panacea... I'm not saying public inquiries are not without difficulties but the idea they are an attempt to divert accountability is deeply flawed.'

https://twitter.com/simonmckay?lang=en
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Thanks. Haven't seen this before.
 
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