If you want to know how not to respond to a tragedy as a political leader, Theresa May has provided the perfect example throughout this week.
Grenfell Tower Fire | 14th June 2017
- Thread starter Cheesy
- Start date
If you want to know how not to respond to a tragedy as a political leader, Theresa May has provided the perfect example throughout this week.
It is blatant mob mentality. I've no doubt now that its being fuelled by groups who have nothing to do with the tragedy.
Are you based in London? I can assure you the anger here is real and not contrived. Almost everyone I've spoken to the past couple of days has been justifiably livid.
How does that relate to a building built in 1972 and 9m refurbishments only a year old supposivley (from what has come out) meeting current fire regulations?
She wouldn't have been in that position had she confronted them initially. She'd have taken a few bad hits from an angry family member or two but I imagine she'd have taken that over whats happening now.
Wildly out of her depth and it's been obvious for a while now.
If there is a descent into mob mentality it's because of the cack handed way in which she has managed her response to this tragedy. If she was at all relatable as a human being or possessed the strength and stability she preaches, she could have diffused the situation within the first 24 hours or so. I've seen comments defending her for not meeting the people outside the church earlier. Well civil unrest can happen when enough people feel that those in power aren't listening. Whether the people are right or wrong, she needs to at least give the impression that she is listening and that she cares.
Anger is real but the mob mentality is being spread from outside groups. The fact is that people who have not been personally affected by this tragedy are there at the scene riling people up for political purposes.
I think we should make a distinction here to a common useless smoke alarm which everybody has in their house and a proper smoke detection fire alarm with a signal to an emergency center.
With Channel 4 News asking her "Why are you running away Miss May".
I saw a report earlier stating that all displaced persons in need of accommodation, now have such. Don't know who's been leading on that, but well done to them i guess.
I've encountered more sadness than anger, or at least the latter has not been individually focused at this time. Certainly no-one i have spoken to is talking about cover-ups, either by the police or the media.
The protest at the town hall had some basis (the council should be far more active on the ground), and was attended by those directly affected or nearby. This stuff in central London on the other hand, is opportunistic nonsense.
I've encountered more sadness than anger, or at least the latter has not been individually focused at this time. Certainly no-one i have spoken to is talking about cover-ups, either by the police or the media.
The protest at the town hall had some basis (the council should be far more active on the ground), and was attended by those directly affected or nearby. This stuff in central London on the other hand, is opportunistic nonsense.
Disagree. They went after Sadiq Khan as well who has visited the area right away and they heckled and try to attack him, so they would have done the same to May regardless of whether she visited a day earlier.
Even supposing that you disregarded the advice to stay put, it would still have been quite a trek for those on the upper storeys of the tower. I know my parents would need to pace themselves over a 20+ floor descent, to say nothing of the smoke or those impaired inn some way. But if we could make stairwells more...resistant, safe zones if you will, it might've bought the emergency services time to reach them. Perhaps this already exists in modern constructions?
Oh i didn't mean anything of that nature, simply that Khan is the only Labour figure with the ability to determine policy directly. He could even approach all borough councils to aid in the raising of money, be it for inspections or hosing the victims over the short-medium term. If the council were Labour-led i'd have mentioned them too; not that 'leading' seems to be a very appropriate term for Kensington and Chelsea's.
In Germany buildings higher than a certain amount of stories have to be built with a free standing stairway which is a separate construction from the rest of the building.
Last edited:
My sense is that people are in large part angry at the complete shambles of a response from the local council, and central government. The day after the fire, I bought a load of nappies and took them down there in my lunch break (it's only a few minutes walk away)... I saw lots of well intentioned people trying to help, lots of donations, but no one in-charge or organising relief for the victims. Where was the council? Where was the government stepping in to care for its people in their time of need? There was nothing! A crazy situation, bordering on criminal neglect.
Yes, people are angry about the circumstances that lead to the tragedy - the awful state of the tower block, the deadly refurb job done on the cheap, the many warnings of residents that were ignored - but if the response from the authorities had been in any way competent, people would be so much calmer right now.
May should resign.
of course, it is, but so what?
Nothing exists in isolation and disconnected agendas will always seek to further their claims under any circumstances. That's the beast that is politics. In this instance, there is clearly spill-over from the recent election being led by people who don't have faith in Theresa May as a Prime Minister. Remember this borough booted out the tories in favour of Labour for the first ever time!
But an experienced politician should know how to navigate within such situations and still be an inspirational and effective leader. Theresa May is failing big time in this regard. But then we already know that about her, given her performance and manner during the election.
Last edited:
It is though, the cheap cladding that was allowed on that building is the reason the fire spread so fast. The reason more people didn't get out is because there weren't fire alarms installed. There weren't sprinkler systems installed. Fire standards weren't met under the Tory council.
Cameron talked about reducing safety laws because 'accidents can happen but business shouldn't be impeded'. Austerity further reduced spending meaning there was less to spend on making these buildings safe.
If you don't think that's reckless neglect I don't know what to tell you.
She is a very wooden person, but again, i refer back to the handling of Katrina. The PM not visiting anger people on street is hardly a justification for mob mentality. Failing to facilitate proper aid is justification
Argh...feck, on Sky News at the moment showing footage of a guy looking for his uncle, and he managed to find a video of him on Facebook telling a young girl not to cry. So, so sad. You can see they're resigned to the bad news but just want confirmation now.
The two are connected in people's minds. There was a complete lack of organisation and leadership at the scene, and inevitably people took the PM acting like a coward instead of showing leadership as a symbolic example of that. The buck stops at the top when it's a disaster on this horrific scale.
The point here is that following the fire at Lakanal House the Government promised to review fire regulations and then went against their promise didn't publicise any review. The question that should be answered by the government is why on earth they didn't publicise the review???
This is pretty much the case. In many respects you can argue it's a byproduct of our current culture that we expect strong leaders, and that it's not necessarily the quality you should expect in one if they're competent and capable behind the scenes, but it's the way things are. May avoiding meeting victims, and almost sprinting back to her car to avoid confronting them, just portrays her as someone uncomfortable around the very people she's supposed to represent.
I'd probably have my qualms going back through most recent British leaders, but I reckon most of them would've mustered a somewhat decent response. Hell, across the pond, despite the lambasting he often got, George W. Bush was largely regarded as having done an excellent job in his response to 9/11. Again, very different incident, but for right or wrong, if you're going to portray yourself as a strong and capable politician, then you've got to live up to that mantra when the people you represent find themselves in a situation where they require you to be strong.
The country is going through a very fractious period. Brexit and the approaching negotiations with no sense of a plan, the election and an increasing feeling among some that those in power don't care, a PM who as Home Secretary plastered buses with signs telling foreigners they weren't welcome, a disaster in a building which seems to have had lots of immigrants living in it and of course the recent terrorist attacks.
Certainly some of those protesting are part of a broader political movement but the anger is out there.
Certainly some of those protesting are part of a broader political movement but the anger is out there.
Last edited:
Sounds like a worthy starting point, one which i'd like to think exists in our newer high-rises.
Has it not been established that the difference between the two types of cladding is negligible? £9-10m isn't insignificant, however what was ultimately done with those monies could prove to e very crucial indeed. As well as being the grounds for multiple court cases i suspect.
Were the above measures in place during the boom years of the 2000s?
What we seem to have is a national or cultural standard which has failed when tested by a crisis, but not any one party's policy on the issue.
Last edited:
And that visit was today. A lot of anger stems from the fact she only visited and spoke to the emergency services yesterday and not to any victims. Today she has been out, but many see it because she has taken a lot of criticism.
You say mob mentality (not referring to the protests against May, exactly) but people protesting and the anger we've seen over the past couple of days is perfectly understandable.
I agree. I'm trying to think back, but I think this is easily the most fractious I remember the country, certainly since peace in Northern Ireland anyway.
Councils handling hasn't been good. One of the big charities should have been called in by the government to oversee the aid process or even called in the army for support.
Yeah, there were some proposals to allocate funds to install sprinkler systems back in 2013 that were voted down.
https://www.london.gov.uk/moderngov/documents/s22397/Appendix 5 - Labour Group Budget Amendment.pdf
Page 23 downwards.
With the cladding being responsible for spreading the fire quickly up the side of the building, it is hard to say whether sprinklers would have had an impact but they might have stopped the fire at the source before it got out of control.
Honestly mate, London is starting to sicken me. Anytime a building gets knocked down you know it's inevitably going to be turned into a shoddily built flat that looks great on the inside but is probably made out of paper and glue. Sold to offshore investors who then charge £2000 a month to rent these piss poor flats with bedrooms the size of cereal boxes to some coke snorting self satisfiying bell end. Then just to make the place even shitter, what they'll do in the poorer areas is knock down libraries and charity shops and turn them into bookmakers and poundshops. Yeah that'll help the poor, lets legally steal their money by getting them to gamble but we'll build loads of pound shops just to pretend we care. That's not even mentioning outrageously stupid living expenses, gas and electricity bills plucked from thin air and these 14/15 year old boys running around with knives stabbing people because they 'gave them a dirty look'.
There is neglect in fire regulations in general. And fire regulation were no better under a Labour government . But this argument is being specified it only happen because its poor people living in a rich area. Look at the fires that happen in Dubai, billion pound buildings that were caddling related.
But no one died, because sprinklers
Fire regulations were exactly the same under Labour. The problem is that they weren't updated to keep up with developments in building practices, mew materials and have totally ignored new evidence and recommendations.
I dislike May as much as anyone but I'm not comfortable with turning a march about getting to the bottom of this disaster into a "May must go protest".
Paranoid DOTA wonders if the Tories are sacrificing her. Have her do a few more days of taking the anger, then she resigns whilst right-wing pundits talk about how unfair that it was 'this' that finished her off and play up the 'militant left' stuff.
They get their new leader without the party's miserable election failure being the sole focus of discussion.
They get their new leader without the party's miserable election failure being the sole focus of discussion.
Always sack your manager after the tough run of games so the new boss can look good by comparison.
Thats a different issue, should you and i have sprinklers in our homes as well, how smoke and carbon monoxide alarms are required?
Its easily possible given there is a substantial majority behind him. I am genuinely surprised he has thrown a hint of his intentions so early on though. That said, it is no surprise and any one with substantial assets or income would be stupid not to risk manage the possibility of a corbyn govt in the near future.
Yup it's pretty disgusting when you think about how they've jumped on it. Genuine concerns and anger is being reduced to party politics from rent a mobs.
Local council budgets have been cut by 40%. The tower was clad to make it look good for the richer parts of the borough. The people have suffered under the bedroom tax and they suspect the local council is looking to kick them out the borough