Grenfell Tower Fire | 14th June 2017

[jackofalltrades]

Khan getting heckled by angry locals. Don't blame them, and I won't be surprised if they're even more angry if no one is held responsible.

Why are they angry with Khan, shouldn't they be outside the Foreign Office ?

 

[Silva]

Why are they angry with Khan, shouldn't they be outside the Foreign Office ?

The foreign office?

They're pissed off at every level of government at the moment, with good reason.

 

[Adzzz]

The foreign office?

To protest Boris, I suspect he means.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Why are they angry with Khan, shouldn't they be outside the Foreign Office ?

What?

 

[jackofalltrades]

The foreign office?

Johnson's new office. He was the previous mayor. I imagine he has more responsibility for this than Khan, although probably there's a long list of errors and poor decisions to be taken into account.

 

[Neutral]

Good on Sadiq for toughing it out - people are rightly angry, upset...and if the worst he has to do is put up with a few people abusing him verbally...so be it.

 

[Silva]

To protest Boris, I suspect he means.

John

Johnson's new office. He was the previous mayor.

Ah, blanked there. He has questions to answer too, of course.

 

[Fergies Gum]

 

[Silva]

Possibly weeks until all the bodies are recovered. Horrible for their friends and family.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

What has supporting Corbyn got to do with it?

 

[Fergies Gum]

What has supporting Corbyn got to do with it?

Nothing. Some Corbyn fan thought it was an appropriate time to yell at Khan for not supporting Corbyn, which tells you all you need to know about their mentality.

 

[Adzzz]

Nothing. Some Corbyn fan thought it was an appropriate time to yell at Khan for not supporting Corbyn, which tells you all you need to know about their mentality.

Well hardly, it's an indirect criticism of austerity the foot at which plenty of blame for this tragedy is being laid. Corbyn is outwardly and openly anti-austerity and the labour party should have supported him, all things considered.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Well hardly, it's an indirect criticism of austerity the foot at which plenty of blame for this tragedy is being laid. Corbyn is outwardly and openly anti-austerity and the labour party should have supported him, all things considered.

Is it really the time for meaningless indirect political criticisms? It is far from clear what caused this disaster and it is likely it is to be a combination of factors.

 

[Mozza]

Wouldn't it make more sense to sell the development and build more houses in other less exclusive areas so more people can actually get housed.

Export the poor? You'd create a new ghetto that these people would be booted out from when the area is gentrified

 

[Adzzz]

Is it really the time for meaningless indirect political criticisms? It is far from clear what caused this disaster and it is likely it is to be a combination of factors.

Who can say what people on the ground in the area are thinking during a time of grief and anger? Blaming it on the cult of Corbynism is equally a indirect political criticism in that respect, we don't know what the bloke was thinking but we do know plenty are talking up austerity and inequality as major factors?

 

[Fergies Gum]

Well hardly, it's an indirect criticism of austerity the foot at which plenty of blame for this tragedy is being laid. Corbyn is outwardly and openly anti-austerity and the labour party should have supported him, all things considered.

How is austerity to blame for this incident?

A significant chunk of the blame at this stage is with the cladding which looks to be why the fire spread out of control. That was nothing to do with austerity and the cladding was put there to improve the buildings aesthetics.

 

[Mockney]

Who can say what people on the ground in the area are thinking during a time of grief and anger? Blaming it on the cult of Corbynism is equally a indirect political criticism in that respect, we don't know what the bloke was thinking but we do know plenty are talking up austerity and inequality as major factors?

The Labour Mayor of London is an odd person to direct that outrage towards though. Especially as he actively campaigned for Corbyn's Labour this election.

 

[Adzzz]

How is austerity to blame for this incident?

A significant chunk of the blame at this stage is with the cladding which looks to be why the fire spread out of control. That was nothing to do with austerity and the cladding was put there to improve the buildings aesthetics.

And why was that? Then return to points about austerity and inequality and the repeated rejected pleas for any fire suppression. Now, I'm not saying this is true or false, I'm saying it's the developing narrative and that might be one reason why one guy was expressing a political question to a political figure, in a public event.

 

[WackyWengerWorld]

I hope manslaughter charges are brought against everyone remotely involved

While there's clear negligence I don't think there's a case for manslaughter even if morally you think there should be

 

[Adzzz]

The Labour Mayor of London is an odd person to direct that outrage towards though. Especially as he actively campaigned for Corbyn's Labour this election.

Sure, but who can account for judgement of angry people at the moment?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yeah sorry just deleted as it's particularly upsetting.

No worries. Not your fault. Just deleted my post quoting it.

 

[DOTA]

I'm nowhere near as up to speed as most in this thread.

There was a grotty tower block, full of poor people, in a very wealthy area. A not insignificant amount of money was spent on adding something called 'cladding' to make it look less jarring for such an affluent area - whilst things such as fire alarms and sprinklers were deemed unnecessary. This cladding was apparently sufficiently flammable that it hugely escalated the spread of the fire.

Is that all about right?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Daily Mail website now got plastered across the homepage a picture of the man whose fridge allegedly started the fire. Why do they feel this is necessary? Imagine what this guy has already gone through and will continue to go through for the rest of his life. Great idea, let's make it so he's got absolutely nowhere to hide.

Probably because he's an immigrant and they've desperate to deflect blame from the conservative council/government. Win win, as far as they're concerned.

The second most highly rated comment did restore my faith in humanity slightly (as well as take me completely by surprise!)

What is the need for naming and publically revealing whose flat the fire started in?

 

[Sweet Square]

Sure, but who can account for judgement of angry people at the moment?

He has been Mayor for over a year now.

 

[rcoobc]

While there's clear negligence I don't think there's a case for manslaughter even if morally you think there should be

Im just so pissed off and upset. This is clear bureaucratic manslaughter. No ones to blame because they all are.

A bunch of people who have no place making decisions, causing the deaths of hundreds, including babies and small children.

So pissed off.

 

[montpelier]

I don't believe this is austerity & underfunding when the block has just had £ 10 M spent on it, is it?

Us again, they aren't short of money for the so called improvements - Green grants, from Europe as it happens, quite often (I think again).

On the balance sheet, they are adding value to the property portfolio of the company. (supposedly)

 

[Pablo76]

They really won't, they have their own coping mechanisms and don't deal with stress the way most of society does. Part of it is black humour and a thick skin but the majority of it is a self taught ability to compartmentalise what they see and do so that it does not weigh on them.

I'm sorry, not the time or the place to argue, but what a really ridiculous comment.

 

[Damien]

Fears hundreds may be dead.
Feck off!

Sadly that was always likely to be the case with the speed the fire spread, the time the fire started, the lack of escape routes, the ages/conditions of many living there (over 50, pregnant, disabled) and the advice given (to stay inside and try and shut off circulation to prevent fire getting in). The link shared before of the inside of one of the flats is horrific and it'll be like that for most of the flats in the building. Temperature in the 1000s, lots of smoke and fire everywhere. Horrible way to die.

 

[montpelier]

I'm nowhere near as up to speed as most in this thread.

There was a grotty tower block, full of poor people, in a very wealthy area. A not insignificant amount of money was spent on adding something called 'cladding' to make it look less jarring for such an affluent area - whilst things such as fire alarms and sprinklers were deemed unnecessary. This cladding was apparently sufficiently flammable that it hugely escalated the spread of the fire.

Is that all about right?

I've seen passing reference to other improvements in among all this. Specifically referencing the fire, there was something about heating work being done in the wrong order to something else, meaning that lateral fire progress was more possible than it ought to have been.

Overall though, theirs been quite of lot of de-grotting going on around - kitchens, bathrooms, heating systems wise - it should have been.

edit - (I mean generally round the country, no knowledge of this area specifically)

 

[Silva]

I don't believe this is austerity & underfunding when the block has just had £ 10 M spent on it, is it?

Us again, they aren't short of money for the so called improvements - Green grants, from Europe as it happens, quite often (I think again).

On the balance sheet, they are adding value to the property portfolio of the company. (supposedly)

£10m isn't an awful lot of money for such a big building.

 

[Manny]

I don't believe this is austerity & underfunding when the block has just had £ 10 M spent on it, is it?

Us again, they aren't short of money for the so called improvements - Green grants, from Europe as it happens, quite often (I think again).

On the balance sheet, they are adding value to the property portfolio of the company. (supposedly)

Yeah, £8.3m spent on it, but it didn't address any of current safety concerns of the residents. Only raised more concerns.

 

[Fergies Gum]

And why was that? Then return to points about austerity and inequality and the repeated rejected pleas for any fire suppression. Now, I'm not saying this is true or false, I'm saying it's the developing narrative and that might be one reason why one guy was expressing a political question to a political figure, in a public event.

The people who were being interviewed were saying the reason for the cladding was because people who lived in the surrounding areas thought the building was a monstrosity and a blight.

For this building i just dont think the problem was with austerity. They managed to find 10 million of taxpayers money for refurbishment, but couldn't spare some of that cash on safety improvements like sprinkler systems, fire extinguishers, better fire alarm systems, etc. For this the blame lies with the council and the management company responsible for running the building.

I agree about the inequality in London. Kensington is the richest borough in London yet this awful incident managed to happen there.

Its why i posted before that once the building is rebuilt, people who are relocated from this can move back if they want and the other flats going to people on the waiting list. The land must not be allowed to be resold, so that developers can make some luxury apartments instead.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Who can say what people on the ground in the area are thinking during a time of grief and anger? Blaming it on the cult of Corbynism is equally a indirect political criticism in that respect, we don't know what the bloke was thinking but we do know plenty are talking up austerity and inequality as major factors?

The cladding is actually primarily to improve the thermal performance of the building as well as enhance the aesthetics. Making buildings more energy efficient is the key driver behind all the installations, to meet new environmental standards. This type of cladding has gone on thousands of buildings round the world including private developments. In theory it should enhance the area by improving aesthetics and bring the cost of energy bills down for residents.

That is not to say that corners haven't been cut or the housing associations haven't failed in their duty of making the buildings safe to save money but we just don't know yet. Best to be wary of point scoring political narratives at this point.

 

[GloryHunter07]

I think about your idea of complaining to the Council - cos I'd just said the same thing to someone else. Grenfell didn't have any success with it.

I didnt say anything about complaining to the council?

 

[DOTA]

The cladding is actually primarily to improve the thermal performance of the building as well as enhance the aesthetics. Making buildings more energy efficient is the key driver behind all the installations, to meet new environmental standards. This type of cladding has gone on thousands of buildings round the world including private developments. In theory it should enhance the area by improving aesthetics and bring the cost of energy bills down for residents.

That is not to say that corners haven't been cut or the housing associations haven't failed in their duty of making the buildings safe to save money but we just don't know yet. Best to be wary of point scoring political narratives at this point.

'It wasn't just about making it less ugly to the rich folk' is gonna be a hard sell.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

'It wasn't just about making it less ugly to the rich folk' is gonna be a hard sell.

I know you are probably joking but making buildings more energy efficient to meet new environmental standards has been a major initiative in the construction industry for the past 15 years or so. Successive governments have backed hundreds of schemes.

 

[montpelier]

I didnt say anything about complaining to the council?

got it now I think

you were telling me that TMOs were smaller than Housing Associations so tenants ought to be getting heard more (I'd asked earlier)

my reply was supposedly about councils, and residents complaining, ending up in the same place, still not being listened to, regardless of the set up - TMO, Housing Assocs - (ours is set up as an ALMO now & treat us like shit too)

sorry for confusion

 

[DOTA]

I know you are probably joking but making buildings more energy efficient to meet new environmental standards has been a major initiative in the construction industry for the past 15 years or so. Successive governments have backed hundreds of schemes.

Not joking. I just mean people are angry and looking for answers and I'm not convinced the energy saving argument is going to be believed, however true it is, when even someone like yourself - who is warning against knee-jerk finger pointing - accepts that aesthetics are part of it.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The cladding is actually primarily to improve the thermal performance of the building as well as enhance the aesthetics. Making buildings more energy efficient is the key driver behind all the installations, to meet new environmental standards. This type of cladding has gone on thousands of buildings round the world including private developments. In theory it should enhance the area by improving aesthetics and bring the cost of energy bills down for residents.

That is not to say that corners haven't been cut or the housing associations haven't failed in their duty of making the buildings safe to save money but we just don't know yet. Best to be wary of point scoring political narratives at this point.

I've seen Tory-voting doctors on another board I frequent try to blame the lefty environmental lobby for the tragedy because of this.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Nope, she turned up for a private photo op with the firefighters then buggered off.

Couldn't even muster the courage and dignity to speak to those affected.

What an absolute cnut. She should resign tonight.