Gaming Gran Turismo 5

[WeasteDevil]

What difference does the look make to gameplay?

I'd much rather have 1000 cars that you can choose between at will without having to worry about if they play any different to the others (obviously not in terms of handling before anyone jumps on that).

Pick premium only mode then and be happy.

 

[esmufc07]

I thought GT5 started development in 2004?

 

[mariachi-19]

wow. cock well and truly out.


Thats a 'beat that cnuts' moment not only to all other racing games, but to the entire industry.

 

[Frans]

i dont actually believe it will look like that. thats just impossible.



my god

 

[WeasteDevil]

I thought GT5 started development in 2004?

Tourist Trophy shipped in Europe in the Spring of 2006.

 

[esmufc07]

In April 2008

In the interview, he also explained that new game GT5 - the Prologue demo-style version of which is currently the UK's bestselling game - had been in the works by 150 people for four years and has cost 50 times more to make than the original GT1 on the PlayStation.

Gran Turismo designer Yamauchi wants to make an RPG | Game Development | News by Develop

 

[The Flying Potato]

I am highly tempted to get a PS3 just for this game, and thats saying alot because I generaly dont like racing games but this just looks special

 

[WeasteDevil]

In April 2008



Gran Turismo designer Yamauchi wants to make an RPG | Game Development | News by Develop

They may have had a few people on pre-production, but that's a different matter, and the team was never that size at the beginning.

Did they simply shit Tourist trophy out of their arse? GT PSP?

Why did GTHD only have 5 cars and 1 track?

 

[esmufc07]

I don't know! I'm just going off what he said.

 

[Arruda]

I am highly tempted to get a PS3 just for this game, and thats saying alot because I generaly dont like racing games but this just looks special

I'm tempted to get a PS2 (mine is broken) to play GT4 while this doesn't come out. It gets harder and harder to wait, all I have to race is DiRT 2, but it really isn't my thing. Shame they dropped retro compatibility.

 

[Redlambs]

Kindly elaborate then if you know so much, but I know the first time I ever discussed this with you, you were actually surprised to find out that Prologue ran at 1280x1080.

Really?

Look at the facts,

Sorry Rafa, you must know more than Kazunori Yamauchi.

Pick premium only mode then and be happy.

That's a head in the sand way of looking at it. I know exactly what your opinion would be had it been Forza.

I thought GT5 started development in 2004?

It did. Actually before the end of GT4.

They may have had a few people on pre-production, but that's a different matter, and the team was never that size at the beginning.

Did they simply shit Tourist trophy out of their arse? GT PSP?

Why did GTHD only have 5 cars and 1 track?

WTF? Even design in the early stages is development. One man alone can develop a game, I didn't know there were restrictions on what and who constitutes game development.

 

[Redlambs]

I don't know! I'm just going off what he said.

You can't go off of what designers say! Only when you have at least 50 people working on a game, it doesn't officially become into development.

Didn't you know that?

 

[WeasteDevil]

I'm tempted to get a PS2 (mine is broken) to play GT4 while this doesn't come out. It gets harder and harder to wait, all I have to race is DiRT 2, but it really isn't my thing. Shame they dropped retro compatibility.

How good is your PC? Have you tried PCSX2?

 

[Redlambs]

How good is your PC? Have you tried PCSX2?

I myself haven't. How well does it work?

 

[WeasteDevil]

It did. Actually before the end of GT4.

No it didn't.

WTF? Even design in the early stages is development. One man alone can develop a game, I didn't know there were restrictions on what and who constitutes game development.

Design especially conceptual design is not classed as development as most people here are thinking about it, did you never take a software engineering class? You are talking out of your arse, because people are using development here to mean implementation - the actual construction of the software. At the end of GT4s cycle the vast majority of the team, at that time around 50 or so in size, went on to do Tourist Trophy, but I suppose that they plucked 150 motorbikes out of their arse?

 

[WeasteDevil]

I myself haven't. How well does it work?

You have to feck about with a lot of config files, it needs configs for lots and lots of games, it's not a vanilla emulator, but it works in the main very well.

 

[Arruda]

How good is your PC? Have you tried PCSX2?

It's a laptop getting old. Core 2 duo 1.50Ghz, 2GB of RAM and a Nvidia GeForce 8400M GS.

Doubt that could run GT4 half-decently, could it? I only use it for strategy games...

You have to feck about with a lot of config files, it needs configs for lots and lots of games, it's not a vanilla emulator, but it works in the main very well.

Meh, forget about it then, I don't have this type of time for a gaming experience that would probably never be totally satisfying compared to the console. I'm really a console dude. Thanks for the idea.

 

[WeasteDevil]

It's a laptop getting old. Core 2 duo 1.50Ghz, 2GB of RAM and a Nvidia GeForce 8400M GS.

Doubt that could run GT4 half-decently, could it? I only use it for strategy games...



Meh, forget about it then, I don't have this type of time for a gaming experience that would probably never be totally satisfying compared to the console. I'm really a console dude. Thanks for the idea.

I wouldn't know, but emulating the Emotion Engine isn't the tricky part, the last PS2 compatible PS3s did that in software. The problem is having enough shovel in the GPU because the Graphics Synthesizer in the PS2 was an odd beast to say the least with quite ridiculous fill rates.

 

[Arruda]

How does GT5 prologue does on itself? I never bought it because I did it with GT4 prologue and got frankly bored with it, it was mostly licenses.

But it's so cheap right now that I might give it a try.

 

[WeasteDevil]

Meh, forget about it then, I don't have this type of time for a gaming experience that would probably never be totally satisfying compared to the console. I'm really a console dude. Thanks for the idea.

Ok, no bother then.

 

[Redlambs]

No it didn't.

Design especially conceptual design is not classed as development as most people here are thinking about it, did you never take a software engineering class? You are talking out of your arse, because people are using development here to mean implementation - the actual construction of the software. At the end of GT4s cycle the vast majority of the team, at that time around 50 or so in size, went on to do Tourist Trophy, but I suppose that they plucked 150 motorbikes out of their arse?

Design is a huge part of the development process, it is you who is 'talking out of their arse'. It is only you also talking about implementation, but since you want to bring that up, it was being 'implemented' in 2004 also.

You are just picking at semantics to try to prove your point, a point that as far as I can see has very little meaning anyway. Why do you care so much about how long development was?


In any case, I look forward to your scanning and comparing the manuals of both games and a detailed analysis of who worked on what and when, then the summary as to why development on GT5 couldn't be classed as such way back in 2004.

 

[Redlambs]

You have to feck about with a lot of config files, it needs configs for lots and lots of games, it's not a vanilla emulator, but it works in the main very well.

Interesting, I'm going to take a look at some point.

 

[WeasteDevil]

Design is a huge part of the development process, it is you who is 'talking out of their arse'. It is only you also talking about implementation, but since you want to bring that up, it was being 'implemented' in 2004 also.

You are just picking at semantics to try to prove your point, a point that as far as I can see has very little meaning anyway. Why do you care so much about how long development was?

You keep saying this, but it simply is not true, and you have no evidence to back it up. All that Elvis has come up with is some quote translated from Japanese to German to English suggesting that GT5 has had 150 people working on it since 2004 when it hasn't.

You keep dodging my question, where did Tourist Trophy and its 140 or so bikes come from, out of thin air? Why if they were working on it since before GT4 was released did GTHD only have 5 cars, 1 track, and a GT4 game engine? Why did Prologue use the GT4 game engine? None of what you say makes any sense. There were no PC based PS3 devkits in 2004, certainly no Cell based devkits, I don't even think that IBM had operational simulators/emulators in 2004. So what were they implementing before GT4s release? You could say that they were modelling the cars, but the modellers were busy building 140 or so motorbikes. GT PSP was announced in 2004 also, so some of the programmers would have started to work on that.

What you are saying makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Redlambs]

You keep saying this, but it simply is not true, and you have no evidence to back it up. All that Elvis has come up with is some quote translated from Japanese to German to English suggesting that GT5 has had 150 people working on it since 2004 when it hasn't.

You keep dodging my question, where did Tourist Trophy and its 140 or so bikes come from, out of thin air? Why if they were working on it since before GT4 was released did GTHD only have 5 cars, 1 track, and a GT4 game engine? Why did Prologue use the GT4 game engine? None of what you say makes any sense. There were no PC based PS3 devkits in 2004, certainly no Cell based devkits, I don't even think that IBM had operational simulators/emulators in 2004. So what were they implementing before GT4s release? You could say that they were modelling the cars, but the modellers were busy building 140 or so motorbikes. GT PSP was announced in 2004 also, so some of the programmers would have started to work on that.

What you are saying makes absolutely no sense.

Again, typical response. Don't lump me in with Elvis either. As for the bikes and game questions, I can only laugh. Like I say, I'm awaiting your detailed comparison on the game manuals

Still, you better send out that memo that design and artwork aren't part of the development process, neither is code and class design while we are at it.


Oh, and for the record, nearly all instances of first games on systems were started development before they emulator and then dev kits are available. I know this for a fact, since I've still got the original docs for both playstation 1 & 2, the N64 and Gamecube, and the Gameboy advance. I've also personally worked on the PS2 and Gamecube pre-dev kit sdks. None of them were anything like what the final dev kits were, yet they were all used for early development. That is, as you and Rafa like to say, a fact.

 

[Redlambs]

You seem to also be suggesting that it took them 2 years to model 140 bikes, but only three to model 1000 much more complicated cars? (some of them 'premium' models too)

Those artists get around, don't they?

 

[WeasteDevil]

Again, typical response. Don't lump me in with Elvis either. As for the bikes and game questions, I can only laugh. Like I say, I'm awaiting your detailed comparison on the game manuals

Still, you better send out that memo that design and artwork aren't part of the development process, neither is code and class design while we are at it.

I never said that design and artwork were not part of the development process, but the designers and artists were doing Tourist Trophy, which again you fail to address. You have absolutely no evidence to the contrary. It's a car racing game in any case, it's more about asset collection than design, as the architects of cities, the designers of cars and circuits already did the hard work in terms of design. Implementation and replication of that is a different matter. It's GT for Christ's sake, game design for the most part was already done 4 times over.

Oh, and for the record, nearly all instances of first games on systems were started development before they emulator and then dev kits are available. I know this for a fact, since I've still got the original docs for both playstation 1 & 2, the N64 and Gamecube, and the Gameboy advance. I've also personally worked on the PS2 and Gamecube pre-dev kit sdks. None of them were anything like what the final dev kits were, yet they were all used for early development. That is, as you and Rafa like to say, a fact.

Nobody is saying any different, but in this case it wasn't, due to the total difference in architecture. The first full Cell system simulator was released in November 2005. We know that most launch games didn't even hardly touch the SPUs.

Platform requirements

The Full-System Simulator for the Cell Broadband Engine™ Processor is a companion technology to the IBM SDK for Multicore Acceleration. Requirements for the IBM SDK for Multicore Acceleration are provided in the Installation Guide.

Hardware: The simulator is available for 32-bit and 64-bit x86 and 64-bit PowerPC systems. Certain simulator features are only available on 64-bit architectures. The system should have at least 1GB of memory available for use by the simulator. Additional system memory may be required if the memory size of the simulated system is increased.

Operating system: This version of the simulator is supported on Fedora Linux Release 9. The simulator is also known to work on related platforms that provide equivalent versions of system libraries.

Software:The simulator requires the tcl, tk, and xterm packages to be installed prior to installing the simulator.

 

[WeasteDevil]

You seem to also be suggesting that it took them 2 years to model 140 bikes, but only three to model 1000 much more complicated cars? (some of them 'premium' models too)

Those artists get around, don't they?

What are you talking about, I'm saying that it took 4 years to model 250 (I said early 2007 after GTHD was ditched - GTHD had 5 cars in December 2006) premium cars with a team that was expanded almost 3 fold, the others in your 1,000 list are the GT4 and GT PSP models retouched.

So you are the one suggesting that it took them 2 years to model 5 cars. Early 2007 to end of 2010 is 4 years. You are saying before GT4, which makes almost 7 years, in two of which they created 1 track and 5 cars.

Again, you make absolutely zero sense.

 

[Redlambs]

I never said that design and artwork were not part of the development process, but the designers and artists were doing Tourist Trophy, which again you fail to address. You have absolutely no evidence to the contrary. It's a car racing game in any case, it's more about asset collection than design, as the architects of cities, the designers of cars and circuits already did the hard work in terms of design. Implementation and replication of that is a different matter. It's GT for Christ's sake, game design for the most part was already done 4 times over.

So, it's a new advanced physics system, but they've used the old values huh? The tracks are more detailed than ever, but they've used the old values huh? The game needs little design, changing the car models from the originals isn't much work and the sound effects can be lifted too right?

Of course, none of this was started in 2004 and none of it counts towards the development cycle either

Nobody is saying any different, but in this case it wasn't, due to the total difference in architecture. The first full Cell system simulator was released in November 2005. We know that most launch games didn't even hardly touch the SPUs.

Sigh. You talk about proof, but you seem to think that this generation of consoles and specifically the PS3 are totally different to what's gone on before, based on a few technical articles?

Emulators come before the dev kits. Before the emulators you are given an idea of what sort of power to aim for. We were developing on the PS2 and GCN and even the original Xbox with wildly different machines to the actual dev kits, it's no different for this generation. However, we are leaving the point of GT5, so I'm not bothering any more with this.

 

[Redlambs]

What are you talking about, I'm saying that it took 4 years to model 250 (I said early 2007 after GTHD was ditched - GTHD had 5 cars in December 2006) premium cars with a team that was expanded almost 3 fold, the others in your 1,000 list are the GT4 and GT PSP models retouched.

So you are the one suggesting that it took them 2 years to model 5 cars. Early 2007 to end of 2010 is 4 years. You are saying before GT4, which makes almost 7 years, in two of which they created 1 track and 5 cars.

Again, you make absolutely zero sense.

I'm not suggesting anything, it's you who are suggesting that it's the same team doing all the games, or should I say the same individuals within those teams.

Drivel of course, but you seem to have a wildly inaccurate view of how game development works.

You can keep saying I'm not making sense, but that's because your fanboy views are clouding normal judgement.


Again, I ask, why is the development time so important to you? This all started because I'm saying that it's bollocks if some features are unfinished, so are you trying to say that is the case because of the lack of time they've had? If so, why did you earlier mention the money men putting pressure on? After only 2 1/2 years development, a team like that are being pressured? It's you who are making little sense.

 

[WeasteDevil]

So, it's a new advanced physics system, but they've used the old values huh? The tracks are more detailed than ever, but they've used the old values huh? The game needs little design, changing the car models from the originals isn't much work and the sound effects can be lifted too right?

Of course, none of this was started in 2004 and none of it counts towards the development cycle either

Prologue used GT4 physics in 2008! Prologue had 5 tracks! Yamauchi himself has said that it took 2 years to do the Nurburgring, not 7. We see that we have 250 premium cars from 5 in GTHD. I think that it's obvious.

Sigh. You talk about proof, but you seem to think that this generation of consoles and specifically the PS3 are totally different to what's gone on before, based on a few technical articles?

Emulators come before the dev kits. Before the emulators you are given an idea of what sort of power to aim for. We were developing on the PS2 and GCN and even the original Xbox with wildly different machines to the actual dev kits, it's no different for this generation. However, we are leaving the point of GT5, so I'm not bothering any more with this.

It's not an article, it's from an IBM paper. Those different machines don't matter, it's alright having an idea of what it can do, but even an i7 doesn't hit the theoretical flops of the Cell. Do you think that there might be a reason for the quantity of launch games on the PS3? You simply can't do what PD are doing with GT5 on the PS3 without using the SPUs, it's not possible, and it certainly was not possible on a pre 2004 class Intel CPU. As for you developing using different hardware for the original Xbox, it has an Intel CPU and a PC GPU running DirectX.

It's quite clear that any work done converting the the GT4 engine over to a PPC platform for GTHD was GPU heavy, and that situation as slowly changed as they moved more and more processes onto the SPUs. It's the same reason why the MGS engine was a dogs breakfast and has since been dumped in the bin with Kojima complaining that the PS3 isn't as powerful as the original specs he was given. Well, it probably is, but MGS4 didn't use the SPUs because he couldn't emulate how they worked.

 

[WeasteDevil]

I'm not suggesting anything, it's you who are suggesting that it's the same team doing all the games, or should I say the same individuals within those teams.

You are suggesting, yet you don't actually know that, that's the problem. You don't have a clue how the 50 or so people at PD were setup in 2004, you are just guessing.

Drivel of course, but you seem to have a wildly inaccurate view of how game development works.

Game development will work in a similar fashion to all software development, because it's, well, software, and I know how that works and have worked in operations far larger than what Polyphony has.

You can keep saying I'm not making sense, but that's because your fanboy views are clouding normal judgement.

You are not making any sense, you are guessing, thus your lack of proof to back it up. Having 5 premium level cars (no cockpit view either at this point) and a single track running on a GT4 game engine at the end of 2006 basically shows that there wasn't a great deal done at that point other than maybe some R&D.

Again, I ask, why is the development time so important to you? This all started because I'm saying that it's bollocks if some features are unfinished, so are you trying to say that is the case because of the lack of time they've had? If so, why did you earlier mention the money men putting pressure on? After only 2 1/2 years development, a team like that are being pressured? It's you who are making little sense.

Why am I so interested? Because you claim that it has been in development since before GT4 was shipped, and that claim is quite simply horseshit.

 

[Redlambs]

Prologue used GT4 physics in 2008! Prologue had 5 tracks! Yamauchi himself has said that it took 2 years to do the Nurburgring, not 7. We see that we have 250 premium cars from 5 in GTHD. I think that it's obvious.

So?

It's not an article, it's from an IBM paper. Those different machines don't matter, it's alright having an idea of what it can do, but even an i7 doesn't hit the theoretical flops of the Cell. Do you think that there might be a reason for the quantity of launch games on the PS3? You simply can't do what PD are doing with GT5 on the PS3 without using the SPUs, it's not possible, and it certainly was not possible on a pre 2004 class Intel CPU. As for you developing using different hardware for the original Xbox, it has an Intel CPU and a PC GPU running DirectX.

Of course it is. That makes my point even more clear.

It's quite clear that any work done converting the the GT4 engine over to a PPC platform for GTHD was GPU heavy, and that situation as slowly changed as they moved more and more processes onto the SPUs. It's the same reason why the MGS engine was a dogs breakfast and has since been dumped in the bin with Kojima complaining that the PS3 isn't as powerful as the original specs he was given. Well, it probably is, but MGS4 didn't use the SPUs because he couldn't emulate how they worked.

Thanks for the lecture. Now, what exactly are you trying to prove with this common knowledge?

 

[Redlambs]

You are suggesting, yet you don't actually know that, that's the problem. You don't have a clue how the 50 or so people at PD were setup in 2004, you are just guessing.

It's you who are guessing. Nice try though.

Game development will work in a similar fashion to all software development, because it's, well, software, and I know how that works and have worked in operations far larger than what Polyphony has.

Yet you think even design isn't part of development.

You are not making any sense, you are guessing, thus your lack of proof to back it up. Having 5 premium level cars (no cockpit view either at this point) and a single track running on a GT4 game engine at the end of 2006 basically shows that there wasn't a great deal done at that point other than maybe some R&D.

Proof to back what up exactly? You're the one who is reading stuff off the internet and putting 1 and 1 together to make 11, not me. Besides, didn't you say GT5 started development in 2007? So GTHD had nothing to do with that then, and in no way was a tech demo?

Why am I so interested? Because you claim that it has been in development since before GT4 was shipped, and that claim is quite simply horseshit.

You know more than even the development team then it seems. But that doesn't answer my question.

 

[WeasteDevil]

So?

If it takes 1 person 6 months to model a car, if they had been doing it so early, you would have had more than 5 of them without cockpits and a single fictional track.

Of course it is. That makes my point even more clear.

So what were you using to pre-develop the original XBox games, a PS1?

Thanks for the lecture. Now, what exactly are you trying to prove with this common knowledge?

That they were not trying to emulate the Cell, and that GTHD at that point was probably running on the PPE and heavily using RSX. That they didn't really have a functioning engine running on the SPUs. They simply recompiled the GT4 engine and shifted the graphics to shaders from the GS code.

 

[Redlambs]

If it takes 1 person 6 months to model a car, if they had been doing it so early, you would have had more than 5 of them without cockpits and a single fictional track.

So you are now claiming that I've said they've been modeling cars that long? I don't know. I do know, however, that development started in 2004.

So what were you using to pre-develop the original XBox games, a PS1?

Re-read what I've written on the issue.

That they were not trying to emulate the Cell, and that GTHD at that point was probably running on the PPE and heavily using RSX. That they didn't really have a functioning engine running on the SPUs. They simply recompiled the GT4 engine and shifted the graphics to shaders from the GS code.

Right. So? The fact you seem to be admitting that early days they had to work with recompiled GT4 code, works for my argument more than yours.

 

[Leg-End]

Are you pair still going?

 

[Redlambs]

Are you pair still going?

We are like a couple of old fuddie duddies arguing over the last worthers original!

 

[WeasteDevil]

It's you who are guessing. Nice try though.

I'm not guessing without logic, you are.

Yet you think even design isn't part of development.

No I don't, it's not part of implementation, which is what most people here will think of. Elvis was an example, he thinks that they had 150 people implementing it since 2004, which they did not.

Is systems analysis part of development? Is risk analysis part of development? Is using COCOMO part of development? SSM?

As I've said, what exactly was their to design here back in 2004 apart from a wish list? GT5:P was running on a ported GT4 engine in mid 2008.

Proof to back what up exactly? You're the one who is reading stuff off the internet and putting 1 and 1 together to make 11, not me. Besides, didn't you say GT5 started development in 2007? So GTHD had nothing to do with that then, and in no way was a tech demo?

I'm not reading anything off the Internet apart from searching for an IBM paper that I knew existed. You are claiming that development started before GT4 was finished even when they would have been in pre-production for TT, and you have no proof to back up your claim, and no logic either. GTHD was a single fictional track and 5 premium cars without their cockpits modelled with only one of them on the track at once running on a ported GT4 game engine. I doubt that it took them 2 years to get to grips with the RSX - go figure.

You know more than even the development team then it seems. But that doesn't answer my question.

Have you been talking to them, in Japanese?

 

[WeasteDevil]

I do know, however, that development started in 2004.

Yet offer no explanation as to how you know that.

Re-read what I've written on the issue.

You said that you started developing for XBox on wildly different hardware than the eventual devkit. You didn't explain what that hardware was.

Right. So? The fact you seem to be admitting that early days they had to work with recompiled GT4 code, works for my argument more than yours.

You press a button and a different processor target, it spits it out. Unless they used assembler a PPE would have no problem running the GT4 game engine. The move to programmable shaders would take some work, but I doubt it was 2 years of work. I'd class that as research and development which is quite different to finalised development. It's proof of concept that then gets dumped for re-implementation.

 

[Redlambs]

Have you been talking to them, in Japanese?

You still haven't answered my question!


I'm going out to get drunk after that England shite, so I'm going to end this little sidetrack now. Weaste, I was at E3:2005 when the GTHD trailer was shown (although under a slightly different name, if my memory serves me) alongside the unveiling of the PS3. GTHD was a tech demo and they claimed it was running on an early GT5 engine, although as you've pointed out it was little more than GT4 updated.

GTHD was a tech demo, showing off some of the early features of GT5. So yes, GT5 development did begin in 2004 and yes it's early concepting was done towards the end of the GT4 development cycle, since Sony had already started giving out the first run of specs for the PS3 then.

So I know you have got it wrong, and I don't even need to bring out Kazunori Yamauchi quotes to back that up.


You, no doubt, will rather crazily claim that doesn't count as true GT5 development, but you are on your own there. Have fun.