Gaming Gran Turismo 5

[Redlambs]

Ofcourse they will, thats why they did it. The models themselves could be used independently of the game.

No, they did it because they thought they could do all cars like that. Poor design decision.

However, there's absolutely no reason those cars can't be used in the next GT. Unless, of course, it takes another shed load of years and the rival games have overtaken them

 

[WeasteDevil]

On the premium cars they have basically modelled everything down to the very last bolt, wire, stich, and headlamp bulb. No other game I can think of has gone that far. As for the standard models, they are not just GT4 models, they have been touched up, probably tessellated and then hand modified, yet things like headlamps will still be mapped textures rather than modelled down to the light bulb.

 

[Leg-End]

it makes sense, otherwise we would wait 15 years for the next gt

Exactly, they are building up a catalogue of cars for not just this version but the next x amount they release. As weaste said they won't touch those cars again, they are complete and you can gurantee as soon as GT5 hits the shelves they will roll out some dlc premium cars which they will probably continue to release until GT6 swings around whenever that may be.

 

[Leg-End]

No, they did it because they thought they could do all cars like that. Poor design decision.

However, there's absolutely no reason those cars can't be used in the next GT. Unless, of course, it takes another shed load of years and the rival games have overtaken them

I think "poor" design decision isnt the right word, "ambitious" is the right word. I bet it doesn't effect their sales at all.

 

[Redlambs]

I'm just waiting for the inevitable fanboy arguments amongst people who know feck all about physics and driving about which is better when it arrives.

Boy, is that going to be tedious. Hence why I only really debate games on here, because you lot have at least half a grip on reality

I'm not expecting it to be much different to Forza 3 personally, and I don't think it does, just upgraded in certain areas would be nice.

 

[Redlambs]

I think "poor" design decision isnt the right word, "ambitious" is the right word. I bet it doesn't effect their sales at all.

Ambitious is putting a gloss on what was actually a poor decision.

Of course it won't affect the sales, it's on one system. A system that is yet to have a game like that.

 

[WeasteDevil]

It all depends how, if at all, it affects the gameplay with the camera.

Also, as I've said, they obviously had a shit development plan and that's why it's taken so long. For example, how would you feel if more than half the assets in the next R&C were lower quality, because they realised they run out of time? That's pretty much what has happened here, and no amount of dressing it up as 'premium' and 'standard' is going to change that.

It's not R&C though is it? The use of those cars is entirely optional if you want to use cockpit view exclusively. In that case, you have 200+ cars to choose from, what's the problem? Stick to the bonnet cam on the rest.

No, they did it because they thought they could do all cars like that. Poor design decision.

However, there's absolutely no reason those cars can't be used in the next GT. Unless, of course, it takes another shed load of years and the rival games have overtaken them

I'm quite sure that they never intended to do it that way, GT HD was a cancelled project, probably at the request of Sony, that's how it started. It was supposed to be a micro-transaction GT where the game was free and then you bought the cars and bikes as you went along. It was running on the GT4 engine and was canned with 5 cars and one track in November 2006. I've played it, most here probably haven't.

People also keep harping on about how much time it has taken since GT4. Well, they have released Tourist Trophy on the PS2 and GT PSP also in that time frame.

As for the rival games, there are none in terms of sales.

 

[Leg-End]

I think this will be the only GT we see on the PS3, GT6 should be an earlier PS4 release if logic is used, trouble is then they will probably say you all moaned about not having all premium cars so we made as many new premiums as possible but cut out the ones that didnt make it, leaving 500+ premium cars which will then be moaned about for having 50% less than GT5

 

[WeasteDevil]

Ambitious is putting a gloss on what was actually a poor decision.

How was it a poor decision for the longer term? Complete car models that never need touching again. Most of the PC simulations that you are so fond of don't have anywhere near 200+ cars, never mind modelled in this kind of detail. Most games don't have over 30.

 

[Redlambs]

It's not R&C though is it? The use of those cars is entirely optional if you want to use cockpit view exclusively. In that case, you have 200+ cars to choose from, what's the problem? Stick to the bonnet cam on the rest.

So it's a game that only does half (or less than that) of what it meant to do? Driving on the bonnet is a lot different to interior, so it's changing gameplay right there. Also, what about people using the camera?

I'm quite sure that they never intended to do it that way, GT HD was a cancelled project, probably at the request of Sony, that's how it started. It was supposed to be a micro-transaction GT where the game was free and then you bought the cars and bikes as you went along. It was running on the GT4 engine and was canned with 5 cars and one track in November 2006. I've played it, most here probably haven't.

People also keep harping on about how much time it has taken since GT4. Well, they have released Tourist Trophy on the PS2 and GT PSP also in that time frame.

As for the rival games, there are none in terms of sales.

None of that really matters here though, does it? What it boils down to is poor design, just like any number of vapourware games over the years they reached to high from the start then as years went on they were playing catch-up as more and more rival games were released. It's lucky they have such huge backing.

Oh and on the sales point, Forza doesn't sell particularily brilliantly because a hell of a lot of people think it's a sim still. GT on the PS3 has always been a defining game on the system, and one that is more accesable. GT5 will sell by the shedloads, including to me, and hopefully all that time will be worth it.

However, none if that takes away from the fact that they bolloxed it from the start and now have had to leave over half the assets unfinished because of it. Can you think of any other game like this?

 

[WeasteDevil]

I think this will be the only GT we see on the PS3, GT6 should be an earlier PS4 release if logic is used, trouble is then they will probably say you all moaned about not having all premium cars so we made as many new premiums as possible but cut out the ones that didnt make it, leaving 500+ premium cars which will then be moaned about for having 50% less than GT5

GT3 had about a quarter of the number of cars of GT2. That's what happens when you start from scratch, they simply couldn't take the PS1 models and use them in the PS2 so they ditched them. This time, they've at least attempted to give some choice and redone the PS2 cars. They would be bolloxed if they did and bolloxed if they didn't.

 

[Redlambs]

I think this will be the only GT we see on the PS3, GT6 should be an earlier PS4 release if logic is used, trouble is then they will probably say you all moaned about not having all premium cars so we made as many new premiums as possible but cut out the ones that didnt make it, leaving 500+ premium cars which will then be moaned about for having 50% less than GT5

Nope. You are looking at it too simplistically, you are better off posting that on a PS3 forum

How was it a poor decision for the longer term? Complete car models that never need touching again. Most of the PC simulations that you are so fond of don't have anywhere near 200+ cars, never mind modelled in this kind of detail. Most games don't have over 30.

Yes, now they are saying it's for the long term! Spin.

Oh, and those PC games are a lot more advanced and a lot more complete. I couldn't care less about shitloads of cars, I won't ever use them all anyway. I care about buying games that are complete.


Oh, and to clarify once more, it's not a deal breaker to me if a few cars have a few extra polygons, but it may well be if only come of the cars allow you to look around at the windows/mirrors thus fundamentally altering the experience from car to car. Because that would be shit.

 

[WeasteDevil]

So it's a game that only does half (or less than that) of what it meant to do? Driving on the bonnet is a lot different to interior, so it's changing gameplay right there. Also, what about people using the camera?

They use 200+ premium cars. You're just being an arsehole for the sake of it.

None of that really matters here though, does it? What it boils down to is poor design, just like any number of vapourware games over the years they reached to high from the start then as years went on they were playing catch-up as more and more rival games were released. It's lucky they have such huge backing.

I agree, Forza 3 does great day/night cycles and dynamic weather. The competition has really caught up there.

Oh and on the sales point, Forza doesn't sell particularily brilliantly because a hell of a lot of people think it's a sim still. GT on the PS3 has always been a defining game on the system, and one that is more accesable. GT5 will sell by the shedloads, including to me, and hopefully all that time will be worth it.

Forza doesn't sell particularly brilliantly because it does not really attract the demographic of the majority of people that own an XBox. It has nothing to do with being a simulation.

However, none if that takes away from the fact that they bolloxed it from the start and now have had to leave over half the assets unfinished because of it. Can you think of any other game like this?

Why don't you think of them as additional assets rather than unfinished assets? In game they will hardly look any different to Forza 3 in-game cars.

Should they have shipped it with just 250 premium cars? GT3 shipped with 150. GT2 with 650, GT4 shipped with 750. I don't see the problem in giving people the option to use the lesser cockpit-less cars.

 

[WeasteDevil]

Yes, now they are saying it's for the long term! Spin.

They always said that it was for the longer term. They have been talking about standard and premium cars for over a year and a half.

Oh, and those PC games are a lot more advanced and a lot more complete. I couldn't care less about shitloads of cars, I won't ever use them all anyway. I care about buying games that are complete.

Well 200+ should be enough for you then. As for being advanced, you don't know yet do you as you've not played GT5, so you're guessing.

Oh, and to clarify once more, it's not a deal breaker to me if a few cars have a few extra polygons, but it may well be if only come of the cars allow you to look around at the windows/mirrors thus fundamentally altering the experience from car to car. Because that would be shit.

Don't use those cars then, I thought that you didn't care less about the number of cars available? You're getting yourself into a knot.

 

[Redlambs]

They use 200+ premium cars. You're just being an arsehole for the sake of it.

? If, and that's an IF those premium cars affect gameplay differently, then that's a bodge.

If it were a game on the Xbox or Wii, you'd be ripping it apart for being half finished

I agree, Forza 3 does great day/night cycles and dynamic weather. The competition has really caught up there.

Just like they had to radically overhaul prologue because it did driving so well

Forza doesn't sell particularly brilliantly because it does not really attract the demographic of the majority of people that own an XBox. It has nothing to do with being a simulation.

That's not true in real life terms. I know shedloads of people with 360's and nearly all own driving games like PG4. Hardly any own forza for that exact reason, no matter how much I tell them otherwise.

Why don't you think of them as additional assets rather than unfinished assets? In game they will hardly look any different to Forza 3 in-game cars.

Because I'm not a politician and I say things as they are.

Should they have shipped it with just 250 premium cars? GT3 shipped with 150. GT4 shipped with 750. I don't see the problem in giving people the option to use the lesser cockpit-less cars.

Because, once again, it fundamentally alters the driving experience. It's half-finished gameplay.

Of course, this is all pointless if the game comes out with the ability to look around all cars (like Forza, I might add), because that's my main gripe. As I said earlier, when driving at speed, you won't tell the bodged ones from the real ones anyway

 

[Leg-End]

Out of interest Redlambs which PC driving games do you regularly use?

 

[Redlambs]

They always said that it was for the longer term. They have been talking about standard and premium cars for over a year and a half.

How long has it been in development for?

Well 200+ should be enough for you then. As for being advanced, you don't know yet do you as you've not played GT5, so you're guessing.

Do you honestly think it will?

Don't use those cars then, I thought that you didn't care less about the number of cars available? You're getting yourself into a knot.

No knot here I'm afraid. If I buy a game I expect it to be finished. No other driving game I own only allows half the experience for half the cars.

Again, you are showing your true colours now Weastie. If this were Forza or a Wii game, you'd beable to see it much more clearly than you are.

 

[Redlambs]

Out of interest Redlambs which PC driving games do you regularly use?

I own most, although I wouldn't say I regularly play them anymore. I play Forza 2 most simply because of the feedback wheel infront of the big screen, which is why I have big hopes for GT5.

 

[Leg-End]

 

[WeasteDevil]

? If, and that's an IF those premium cars affect gameplay differently, then that's a bodge.

If it were a game on the Xbox or Wii, you'd be ripping it apart for being half finished

How is it half finished? So they should release it like they did with GT3 then with just 250 cars, or should they not release it at all? I keep asking you, why not give the option to drive the others without a cockpit?

Just like they had to radically overhaul prologue because it did driving so well

They didn't overhaul Prologue, prologue was based on the GT4 driving model. The GT5 model was in the works. Do I need to point you to a dictionary for you to find out what the word "Prologue" means?

That's not true in real life terms. I know shedloads of people with 360's and nearly all own driving games like PG4. Hardly any own forza for that exact reason, no matter how much I tell them otherwise.

As far as I understand it, Forza 3 is approaching 3 million copies sold. What you are saying does not make sense.

Because I'm not a politician and I say things as they are.

Your point of view, but like a politician you don't like giving people options.

Because, once again, it fundamentally alters the driving experience. It's half-finished gameplay.

Not if you stick to the 250 cars that have a full cockpit. Most people will not drive in the cockpit view in any case, especially when using a wheel. Again, it's about options.

Of course, this is all pointless if the game comes out with the ability to look around all cars (like Forza, I might add), because that's my main gripe. As I said earlier, when driving at speed, you won't tell the bodged ones from the real ones anyway

Forza doesn't have over 1000 cars to drive.

 

[WeasteDevil]

How long has it been in development for?

Since early 2007.

Do you honestly think it will?

I don't know, I've not played it yet.

No knot here I'm afraid. If I buy a game I expect it to be finished. No other driving game I own only allows half the experience for half the cars.

No other driving game that you own has 1000 drivable cars in it, most probably less than 40.

Again, you are showing your true colours now Weastie. If this were Forza or a Wii game, you'd beable to see it much more clearly than you are.

No I wouldn't, your mutterings are simply childish when you take into account that the game has 250 cars or so modelled to a higher detail than any other game, even PC games have attempted to do - not saying much there.

Were you complaining when Forza Motorsport was released with ONLY 240 shitty modelled cars? Or when Forza 2 was released with ONLY 350 shitty modelled cars? Yet you now moan when you get 250 highly modelled cars? As I've said, that seemed to be enough for you, ignore the ones that haven't been given the full love.

I can't wait for when they announce that there will be standard and premium tracks.

 

[Redlambs]

How is it half finished? So they should release it like they did with GT3 then with just 250 cars, or should they not release it at all? I keep asking you, why not give the option to drive the others without a cockpit?

Because it's fundamentally changing the driving experiance! I'm not saying don't release it, I'm saying it's a bodge

They didn't overhaul Prologue, prologue was based on the GT4 driving model. The GT5 model was in the works. Do I need to point you to a dictionary for you to find out what the word "Prologue" means?

I'm not getting suckered in to the standard Weaste argument for arguments sake. Do you like Mike Parry by any chance?

As far as I understand it, Forza 3 is approaching 3 million copies sold. What you are saying does not make sense.

How does it make no sense?

Your point of view, but like a politician you don't like giving people options.

Err, isn't what you think is ok denying people options? It is, you just are trying to spin it.

Not if you stick to the 250 cars that have a full cockpit. Most people will not drive in the cockpit view in any case, especially when using a wheel. Again, it's about options.

So pay full price for a game and stick to only the half (or less) that is finished?

Forza doesn't have over 1000 cars to drive.

No, but it is a complete game.

 

[Redlambs]

Since early 2007.

Try again.

I don't know, I've not played it yet.

Well my fingers are crossed.

No other driving game that you own has 1000 drivable cars in it, most probably less than 40.

No other driving game denies some cars some views either.

No I wouldn't, your mutterings are simply childish when you take into account that the game has 250 cars or so modelled to a higher detail than any other game, even PC games have attempted to do - not saying much there.

You say childish, but it's a simple point you are not getting

Were you complaining when Forza Motorsport was released with ONLY 240 shitty modelled cars? Or when Forza 2 was released with ONLY 350 shitty modelled cars? Yet you now moan when you get 250 highly modelled cars? As I've said, that seemed to be enough for you, ignore the ones that haven't been given the full love.

Were they shitty modeled? No. Were they capable of being as detailed as GT5? Yes. Did they want to do that and release a half finished game? No.

I can't wait for when they announce that there will be standard and premium tracks.

Yep, half finished tracks.

 

[mariachi-19]

It all depends how, if at all, it affects the gameplay with the camera.

Also, as I've said, they obviously had a shit development plan and that's why it's taken so long. For example, how would you feel if more than half the assets in the next R&C were lower quality, because they realised they run out of time? That's pretty much what has happened here, and no amount of dressing it up as 'premium' and 'standard' is going to change that.

When you consider the enormity of the game, they've done a bloody good job to get it out in the space of 5 years.

 

[Redlambs]

When you consider the enormity of the game, they've done a bloody good job to get it out in the space of 5 years.

It was never planned to take that long (longer in fact), it's the sheer enormity of the task they opened themselves up to that caused it. As I've said before, without the obviously huge backing and multiple increases in budget, we wouldn't even be seeing it.

Now it's not finished, but being released. However, I'm not concerned about the cars and the polygon counts, I'm only concerned about the driving experience.

 

[WeasteDevil]

Because it's fundamentally changing the driving experiance! I'm not saying don't release it, I'm saying it's a bodge

No, you're saying don't give people the opportunity to drive the other 800 or so cars if they want to.

I'm not getting suckered in to the standard Weaste argument for arguments sake. Do you like Mike Parry by any chance?

I'm not forcing you into doing so, you do so from your own free will.

How does it make no sense?

Because Forza 3 is probably the highest selling racing game on the 360, or soon will be.

Err, isn't what you think is ok denying people options? It is, you just are trying to spin it.

No, you are suggesting that they should leave them out whether people want them or not. You don't even have a clue how this will operate, it could be a simple options setting - premium/standard/mix. The key word there being options.

So pay full price for a game and stick to only the half (or less) that is finished?

As an ex game developer you of all people should realise that at some point the money men are going to say, enough, it's good enough as it is. All software development works like that, otherwise you could spend an infinite amount of time by keeping adding and refining it. There is some economics involved here.

As I've already said, most full priced racing games don't feature anywhere near 250 cars, most less than 40, and most racing games only have models that are GT4 quality in any case - GT3 150, Forza 250, Forza 2 350. Why not simply think of the rest of them as a bonus?

No, but it is a complete game.

Complete in the sense that they didn't give you the extra bonus? If GT5 discarded the other cars and left you with 250 perfectly modelled cars, it would be a complete game in your weird opinion? Yet when they also give you another 800 to use at your discretion it all of a sudden becomes incomplete? Bizarre!

 

[WeasteDevil]

Try again.

Tourist Trophy was released end of May 2006. They then moved on to GT HD Concept which was going to be based on transactions, so they would slowly add the cars and tracks and you would pay small amounts for each. That was then canned at the end of 2006 to develop a full GT. The first Prologue was released a year later.

It's you that needs to try again.

 

[Redlambs]

No, you're saying don't give people the opportunity to drive the other 800 or so cars if they want to.

Quote?

Because Forza 3 is probably the highest selling racing game on the 360, or soon will be.

So it couldn't sell a lot more?

No, you are suggesting that they should leave them out whether people want them or not. You don't even have a clue how this will operate, it could be a simple options setting - premium/standard/mix. The key word there being options.

Quote?

As an ex game developer you of all people should realise that at some point the money men are going to say, enough, it's good enough as it is. All software development works like that, otherwise you could spend an infinite amount of time by keeping adding and refining it. There is some economics involved here.

You what? They've done the opposite to what you've just written.

As I've already said, most full priced racing games don't feature anywhere near 250 cars, most less than 40, and most racing games only have models that are GT4 quality in any case - GT3 150, Forza 250, Forza 2 350. Why not simply think of the rest of them as a bonus?

Because it could (and we still don't know for a fact) fundamentally alter the game experience because they run out of time.

Again, I'm not saying don't add the cars (a point you are deliberately overlooking), I'm saying the game is half finished.

Complete in the sense that they didn't give you the extra bonus? If GT5 discarded the other cars and left you with 250 perfectly modelled cars, it would be a complete game in your weird opinion? Yet when they also give you another 800 to use at your discretion it all of a sudden becomes incomplete? Bizarre!

They aren't extra bonuses, they are the finished article. Spin.

 

[Redlambs]

Tourist Trophy was released end of May 2006. They then moved on to GT HD Concept which was going to be based on transactions, so they would slowly add the cars and tracks and you would pay small amounts for each. That was then canned at the end of 2006 to develop a full GT. The first Prologue was released a year later.

It's you that needs to try again.

Nope. I would elaborate, but you seem to be ignoring most of the stuff I'm saying anyway.

Would it help if I gave you some soundbites about how much I hate Sony, the PS3 is shit and the should only have 20 cars in GT5?

 

[mariachi-19]

Were they shitty modeled? No. Were they capable of being as detailed as GT5? Yes. Did they want to do that and release a half finished game? No.

No they couldn't. At E3 the other day the head honcho of Forza made it clear that although the graphics on the video they were displaying looked as good as GT 'not in those words' it would require a significant increase in hardware performance for the xbox 360 to even come close to replicating that level of quality.

Yep, half finished tracks.

Tracks from GT4 that still look outstanding even now and will look even better when tarted up for GT5. Of course those premium tracks will probably include weather and time shift which is something that Forza is yet to even think about let alone implement.

 

[mariachi-19]

It was never planned to take that long (longer in fact), it's the sheer enormity of the task they opened themselves up to that caused it. As I've said before, without the obviously huge backing and multiple increases in budget, we wouldn't even be seeing it.

Now it's not finished, but being released. However, I'm not concerned about the cars and the polygon counts, I'm only concerned about the driving experience.

Then why did you buy forza 3 when almost every unbiased article said it was a step down from Forza 2 in terms of gameplay.

 

[Redlambs]

No they couldn't. At E3 the other day the head honcho of Forza made it clear that although the graphics on the video they were displaying looked as good as GT 'not in those words' it would require a significant increase in hardware performance for the xbox 360 to even come close to replicating that level of quality.

Interesting, care to point me to that interview?

Tracks from GT4 that still look outstanding even now and will look even better when tarted up for GT5. Of course those premium tracks will probably include weather and time shift which is something that Forza is yet to even think about let alone implement.

Tongue in cheek my friend As with all driving games, the tracks are the last thing to tart up since it's easier to fake the illusion of realism at speed. As long as there's no physical differences and it doesn't change the realism of the cars on track, I doubt anyone would give a damn.

 

[Redlambs]

Then why did you buy forza 3 when almost every unbiased article said it was a step down from Forza 2 in terms of gameplay.

I didn't. I also don't go by reviews. Don't fall into the Weaste category of ignoring what has been said just to prove a point

 

[mariachi-19]

Interesting, care to point me to that interview?

It was a video interview on gamespot about forza technology and kenetic.

 

[esmufc07]

I've missed this!

 

[Redlambs]

I've missed this!

Me too! No doubt Weaste will say otherwise, but we all know the big softie loves this more than anyone

 

[esmufc07]

To be honest I think you're being a bit harsh Redlambs, I don't think it was ever their intention to have all the cars in the game at the same detail level as the 200 premium cars. For me it's not a problem, I can understand your concern about how it can affect gameplay, but I'm sure that will be minimal anyway, and to call it half a game is a bit silly. This game has been in development since 2004, and I think they've spent over $60m developing it aswell, if they were to do what you want them to do the game would never be released. I'd much rather have 200 premium cars and 800 standard ones, rather than just 1000 standard cars.

It really isn't a big issue, and I don't know why it's been made into one.

 

[Redlambs]

To be honest I think you're being a bit harsh Redlambs, I don't think it was ever their intention to have all the cars in the game at the same detail level as the 200 premium cars. For me it's not a problem, I can understand your concern about how it can affect gameplay, but I'm sure that will be minimal anyway, and to call it half a game is a bit silly. This game has been in development since 2004, and I think they've spent over $60m developing it aswell, if they were to do what you want them to do the game would never be released. I'd much rather have 200 premium cars and 800 standard ones, rather than just 1000 standard cars.

It was their intention from the start, and the costs are high because they continually added to the game.

It really isn't a big issue, and I don't know why it's been made into one.

You think the gameplay being fundamentally altered because they've had to get it out this year isn't an issue?


You'd be complaining like mad if most games were like this.

 

[Redlambs]

I'd much rather have 200 premium cars and 800 standard ones, rather than just 1000 standard cars.

What difference does the look make to gameplay?

I'd much rather have 1000 cars that you can choose between at will without having to worry about if they play any different to the others (obviously not in terms of handling before anyone jumps on that).

 

[WeasteDevil]

Nope. I would elaborate, but you seem to be ignoring most of the stuff I'm saying anyway.

Kindly elaborate then if you know so much, but I know the first time I ever discussed this with you, you were actually surprised to find out that Prologue ran at 1280x1080.

Look at the facts, GTHD was released December 2006, it ran at 1440x1080 60fps with no AA, it had 5 cars, one track, time trial and drifting only, you only ever had 1 car on the track. It was a move to give you GT4 in HD and was to be a PSN only game based on micro-transactions, so 50p for a car, 1 quid for a track. Soon after the whole concept was ditched to develop a full GT - GT5.

One year later, in December 2007, Prologue was released in Japan with 5 tracks, and 40 cars, still based on the GT4 driving and physics engine, now at 1280x1080 60fps and 2xAA. A year later it had 80 cars, all of them premium model, yet still running on the GT4 engine.

Two further years later, they released a time trial with the GT5 driving model.

In the meantime GT PSP has been released.

Another year later the full GT5 with 250 cars, totally redone graphics engine with daytime transitions, totally new physics and driving model, probably dynamic weather, and a full online mode.

Development of GT5 started in early 2007, I would call GT4 with 5 cars an one track pre-production. Please provide your inside knowledge on the matter that is contrary to those FACHTS.