Graeme Sourness | Retires from “punditry”

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Lazy stereotyping is both a form of racism and a tool for racism. The more conscious the stereotyping is, the more it can be considered a tool. The less conscious the stereotyping is, the more deeply inherent the racism is.

Someone like Ben Shapiro uses lazy stereotyping very consciously as a tool for propagating his bigoted messages, it’s calculated and clinical.

Someone like Souness on the other hand clearly has deeply ingrained ideas about black players as can be seen not only by his constant lazy stereotyping but the way that stereotyping always manifests negatively with him seemingly becoming angry as a result of the assumptions he is making. It’s a completely irrational and emotional response that completely defies logic and reason.

Lazy stereotyping is not in itself indicative of a huge problem.

Steve Sidwell was labelled a poor mans Paul Scholes for nothing more than the fact he scored goals and was ginger.

Humans are lazy. We look for easy points of comparison. Sometimes it’s shitty at the same time that it’s convenient.

“This thing is enough like that thing for me to compare” is indicative of laziness more than prejudice.

There are hundreds of times that less inflammatory comparisons are made that fly under the radar, mainly because they don’t have a skin colour involved.

Had Jose said the things he said of a black left back that he said of Shaw, there would be suggestions of Racism. (Brainless etc). They wouldn’t be racist.

Things said of Ravel & his circle would have been projected as racist if he looked like Pogba. When he was quite clearly just a flawed human.

Souness is (often) misguided, and the mental leaps he made to suggest Keane had off the field issues were certainly that.

But can we not just agree that he’s a bit shit, before we proclaim him a racist. I’m more concerned that we’re looking to a daft twit for tactical analysis, than I am about his lazy comparisons.

Get good people talking about things. That’s all we need to do.

 

[crossy1686]

Pathetic people trying to label him a racist. Damaging a guys reputation for no reason. The reasons people are calling him a racist means we are all racists. Unconcious bias. Were all racists lads.

It’s tone deaf racism at the least, he doesn’t realise it but someone needs to have a word. At the very worst it’s dog whistle racism. Either way there’s no defending his comments about young black lads because, let’s face it, they’re the target of most of his rants.

He had a go a Moise Kean the other day, said something along the lines of “Juventus don’t let players go, you have to question his attitude”.

Kean isn’t Balotelli and has never caused issues anywhere so where’s he got that from? As I said, at best it’s tone deaf, at worst it’s dog whistle. Either way someone needs to have a word before he gets sacked like Strachan did.

 

[Stacks]

‘At 19, why have Juventus sold him? Personally, there are slight alarm bells going off in my head.

‘Juventus are arguably the biggest club in Italy, the wealthiest club in Italy, given that they’ve got an older strike force, you’re selling a 19-year-old who won’t be hurting you wage wise. You’ve not got £100million plus for him, I think there will be other issues there.

‘It doesn’t make any common sense if you’re Juventus, it is as if they’re saying “we don’t care how good he is going to be, you can take him” which would suggest off the field activities are not the best.

‘It’s a bit like Emmanuel Adebayor here (Emirates), he was 25, just about to enter his best years and Arsene Wenger sold him to Manchester City.’

‘Right away you’re thinking, “he’s not selling him because he’s not a good football player, it is because there is something not quite right about him”. That was a boy who had all the talent you could ever wish for but didn’t do it.’

Souness isn’t being racist or intentionally trying to be.

What he does is lazy stereotyping towards black players.

If a black player isn’t performing to the standards, then Souness labels them lazy.

Comparing Kean to Adebayor is lazy stereotyping just because they are both black and strikers.

Souness compared Lukaku to Drogba a few years ago, just because they both played for Chelsea, are strikers and both black. Even though Drogba is a completely different type of striker.

Lazy stereotyping and racism are different, even though there is a fine line between the two.

so much problematic nonsense with what you have said which is exactly the issue. He literally gave his reasons (legit ones) in his quote as to why he was suspicious and you have decided it was because he is stereotyping black players. Read the quote above.

which solely black players has he erroneously accused of being lazy due to their under-performance?

He compared Kean and Adebayor because they both played upfront, about to enter their best years and were sold prematurely. Again you have decided yourself that race was the reason.

Everyone compares Lukaku and Drogba. hell even Jose tried to make Lukaku his Drogba. Both big strong powerful forwards, who played for Chelsea and have the size to compete with defenders. Yes they happen to be black, so I guess it's because he is racist. Souness thinks Lukaku is a strong forward who bullies defenders and he even said this in commentary when we played Chelsea. Of course we know Lukaku is easy to handle but clearly Souness thinks Lukaku actually knows how to use his size and strength hence the Drogba comparison. Unfortunetely he is wrong about that but of course their blackness overrides everything.

Personally, although I agree that they are two different entities, I believe that lazy stereotyping is a form of racism in itself. Now, I've always been of the belief that Graham Souness is an old bigot whose comments are laced with racist undertones, so maybe I'm quite biased when it comes to this discussion.

However, the people who brush this off as just criticism or call us snowflakes seem to be the same people who aren't, and never have been targeted, by "lazy stereotypes".

For example, Patrick Cutrone, who was highly thought of in Italy, made a move to Wolves this summer for a fairly modest fee. Do you think Souness or any other pundit will come out and criticise his work ethic based on nothing but hunches and assumptions? How ridiculous would it sound if he compared his attitude to a random white player who, a decade ago, was transferred from a team that has no relation to Wolves, A.C. Milan or Cutrone? Seems like Souness is attempting to tar a group of black players with the same brush. As @BobbyManc stated earlier, all of these incidents in isolation are no racist, but when you bunch them together they begin to paint a pretty concerning picture.

Also, the labelling of black people as lazy is much more than just harmless ignorance as it is an historically charged stereotype that dates back over 100 years (that's a conversation for another time).

In terms of the Adebayor comparison, it's safe to assume that he has linked them together based purely on the colour of their skin. There is no other common link between the two transfers, which happened around a decade apart.

said it yourself

Lazy stereotyping is both a form of racism and a tool for racism. The more conscious the stereotyping is, the more it can be considered a tool. The less conscious the stereotyping is, the more deeply inherent the racism is.

Someone like Ben Shapiro uses lazy stereotyping very consciously as a tool for propagating his bigoted messages, it’s calculated and clinical.

Someone like Souness on the other hand clearly has deeply ingrained ideas about black players as can be seen not only by his constant lazy stereotyping but the way that stereotyping always manifests negatively with him seemingly becoming angry as a result of the assumptions he is making. It’s a completely irrational and emotional response that completely defies logic and reason.

You have just chosen to focus on their skin colours and made this about race

 

[VP89]

It’s tone deaf racism at the least, he doesn’t realise it but someone needs to have a word. At the very worst it’s dog whistle racism. Either way there’s no defending his comments about young black lads because, let’s face it, they’re the target of most of his rants.

He had a go a Moise Kean the other day, said something along the lines of “Juventus don’t let players go, you have to question his attitude”.

Kean isn’t Balotelli and has never caused issues anywhere so where’s he got that from? As I said, at best it’s tone deaf, at worst it’s dog whistle. Either way someone needs to have a word before he gets sacked like Strachan did.

So he had a negative view on a couple of black players, does that make him racist? I see him often speak highly about Rashford, Sterling, Kante, Rose, Walker etc. How did you come to the conclusion that he's racist? Pogba polarises opinion, and I agree Keane was a daft assessment. But I would be surprised if its racially driven, or else we'd see it more on his assessment on other players.

 

[DJ Jeff]

From what I can tell, souness is overtly non racist. When he signed Mark Walters for rangers, he warned him it might be difficult for him because of the racist crowd. Or this story from Howard Gayle on Tommy Smith being a racist cnut in the 70s:

I received the ball, controlled it, and lashed a shot towards goal. Tommy Smith was on the other team and it hit him on the leg. It clearly stung and some of the other players started laughing. I had a smile on my face as well. I saw it as karma. Tommy responded with a tirade of abuse. It was ‘black this, black that’.

The place went quiet. Everybody could hear it, including the staff. He was a legend. I was a nothing. Nobody said a word.

I’d had enough of him: this bitter old man. So I went over and squared up: nose to nose. I looked at him dead in the eye. “You know what, Tommy; one night you’ll be taking a piss at home and I’ll be there waiting for you with a baseball bat,” I said, calmly. “And then we’ll see what you’ve got to say.” I wanted to start a fight with him. And then he walked away.

I look back now and remember this moment as a real low point. I’d grown up loving Tommy Smith. He was a hero of Bill Shankly’s team. But you only see the player, the legend: the hero. You don’t know the person. From then on, he was no hero of mine. As a human being, Tommy Smith was a disappointment, a complete let-down.

Graeme Souness was the only one that came over in the immediate aftermath. “Well done, Howard,” he said. “Tommy deserved that”. Graeme was a true leader.​

I don't think it ever occurred to most people from that generation who were taking a stand of some sort against racism (I mean, he's hardly being a civil rights advocate here, just a few good examples of acting against his racist surroundings) that colored people would still be discriminated in the absence of overt racism. It's probably absurd for souness this is happening, whom I can imagine in his own self view has stood up against racism at a time where doing so was probably less popular than just being straight up racist.

The issues of race today are in many ways quite different than they were back then, but the way it is critiqued is often as if it is of similar character to when overt racism was normalised. It needs a different vocabulary partly because it trivialises the debate on stereotyping when it all gets lumped into the same basket, and that in turn risks trivialising speaking up against the rising current of overt racism we do see emerging as well.

Totally agree with you. Souness doing the little bit he does in that anecdote is a thousand times braver than any amount of articles or tweets against racism today.

 

[B20]

No, it's still racism just a different kind of racism.

The sort of ambient racial biases that Souness displays and are so incredibly common in society are actually more damaging than the overt racism of a small minority of KKK loons. It's important to call out these things when they happen and make people aware of their often subconscious biases.

My issue with calling it "racism" is that, regardless of whether it is more damaging than the over racism of a small minority, is clearly a much less severe act on an individual scale than the racist actions of KKK loons and their like. And it is often not intentionally racist, which to me is a critical factor.

Raise awareness of it? Yes. I don't think "calling people out" on it, or shaming them etc is the best way to go about it. If you want to encourage people to be aware of their subconscious biases, a different context is needed.

In this case, Souness can be called out on having a detailed opinion based on complete ignorance of the topic and filling in the gaps with racial stereotyping. Calling him racist for doing so is akin to lumping him in with KKK loons who also fall under that label and is more likely to achieve the opposite of increased awareness. I imagine Souness rejects the matter out of hand because he doesn't actively hold racist views and it would be absurd for him to be lumped in with overt racists.

A different conversation that doesn't evoke the overt racism of overt racists and focuses on the subtler implications of stereotyping might be a more receptive one in a lot of cases. Might also make it easier to actually talk about if raising the prospect of stereotyping doesn't raise the spectre of labelling another person racist. On the internet that is easy, but in real life that's a challenging prospect.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

It’s tone deaf racism at the least, he doesn’t realise it but someone needs to have a word. At the very worst it’s dog whistle racism. Either way there’s no defending his comments about young black lads because, let’s face it, they’re the target of most of his rants.

He had a go a Moise Kean the other day, said something along the lines of “Juventus don’t let players go, you have to question his attitude”.

Kean isn’t Balotelli and has never caused issues anywhere so where’s he got that from? As I said, at best it’s tone deaf, at worst it’s dog whistle. Either way someone needs to have a word before he gets sacked like Strachan did.

It’s not a dog whistle ffs. Read a little.

A dog whistle is a covert call to arms.

Call the fella misguided. Advise him to educate himself and realise some lazy comparisons.

But suggesting he’s making under the radar remarks to single intent without being overt (a dog whistle) is nuts. It’s also far worse a judgment than the one he levelled at Kean.

I think he’s a shite pundit (post match). He’s a pretty good analyst when given time and space to collate his thoughts. But he’s not racist. He’s not signalling to bigots. He’s just not.

 

[SteveJ]

'At 19, why have Juventus sold him? Personally, there are slight alarm bells going off in my head.'

‘Juventus are arguably the biggest club in Italy, the wealthiest club in Italy, given that they’ve got an older strike force, you’re selling a 19-year-old who won’t be hurting you wage wise. You’ve not got £100million plus for him, I think there will be other issues there.

‘It doesn’t make any common sense if you’re Juventus, it is as if they’re saying “we don’t care how good he is going to be, you can take him” which would suggest off the field activities are not the best.

‘It’s a bit like Emmanuel Adebayor here (Emirates), he was 25, just about to enter his best years and Arsene Wenger sold him to Manchester City.’

Why isn't he thinking: 'Juve have and are spending a fortune on Ronaldo - that's why they've sold a player'? Why isn't he thinking: 'Wenger runs Arsenal as if he were the club's accountant - that's why he sold a player'? But, no, just like Neville jumping the gun at least twice in his rush to criticise Pogba, Souness's first thought is: 'Young...foreign...troublesome...spoilt.'

That's the trouble with these pundits: they're outdated, kneejerk (and not only because their paymasters demand it); they're given a free ride when it comes to research; and their tv colleagues are either too deferential or a mutually self-righteous echo chamber.

 

[Jordan_mufc]

so much problematic nonsense with what you have said which is exactly the issue. He literally gave his reasons (legit ones) in his quote as to why he was suspicious and you have decided it was because he is stereotyping black players. Read the quote above.

which solely black players has he erroneously accused of being lazy due to their under-performance?

He compared Kean and Adebayor because they both played upfront, about to enter their best years and were sold prematurely. Again you have decided yourself that race was the reason.

Everyone compares Lukaku and Drogba. hell even Jose tried to make Lukaku his Drogba. Both big strong powerful forwards, who played for Chelsea and have the size to compete with defenders. Yes they happen to be black, so I guess it's because he is racist. Souness thinks Lukaku is a strong forward who bullies defenders and he even said this in commentary when we played Chelsea. Of course we know Lukaku is easy to handle but clearly Souness thinks Lukaku actually knows how to use his size and strength hence the Drogba comparison. Unfortunetely he is wrong about that but of course their blackness overrides everything.

This has to be the biggest load of tosh I've seen on this forum. So instead of just having a go at you I'll deconstruct what you have just said and ask you a few questions.

First of all, the reported reasons why Kean left Juventus was due to wanting first-team football and the racism he suffered whilst being in Italy. He had one year left on his contract, hence the modest fee. So, my first question, where are Souness' "legit reasons" for presuming that Juventus sold him as he has an attitude problem? None of his quote above is based on any research or factual evidence, he has just come to the conclusion that Juventus have sold a young boy because he has an attitude problem.

Secondly, Souness' sustained agenda against Pogba, in which he seems to get genuinely angry when he makes his points, is another example of him targeting a black player for his attitude and work rate. So this isn't an isolated incident.

Thirdly, Adebayor was 25 when Arsenal sold him, and contrary to popular opinion, Wenger has admitted that he wanted to keep him at the club. So he wasn't forced out of the door due to an attitude problem. Kean is 19 amd by no means "about to enter his best years", so there is no comparison when it comes to age. He is Italian, so there's no commonality there. They have no relation in terms of clubs. Souness had a selection of hundreds of players with attitude problems (Bellamy, Icardi, Tevez) but he decided to choose another black player (the only commonality that these two players have).

Finally, comparing black players to other black players ins't solely a Souness issue. Whilst I agree that his Drogba to Lukaku comparison's aren't racist, there's definitely an issue with pundits tarring all black players with the same brush. Pogba gets compared to Toure as opposed to Gerrard for example. Bailly and Koulilbaly,

Anyway, your post is deeply flawed.

 

[macheda14]

Finally, comparing black players to other black players ins't solely a Souness issue. Whilst I agree that his Drogba to Lukaku comparison's aren't racist, there's definitely an issue with pundits tarring all black players with the same brush. Pogba gets compared to Toure as opposed to Gerrard for example. Bailly and Koulilbaly

This is a very good point. It’s very rare to hear a black player being called the next [insert white player who plays in the same position with same play style]. Sometimes the comparisons make sense but sometimes they are quite lazy and are mainly ‘oh they play in the same position and have the same skin colour.’

 

[Stacks]

This has to be the biggest load of tosh I've seen on this forum. So instead of just having a go at you I'll deconstruct what you have just said and ask you a few questions.

First of all, the reported reasons why Kean left Juventus was due to wanting first-team football and the racism he suffered whilst being in Italy. He had one year left on his contract, hence the modest fee. So, my first question, where are Souness' "legit reasons" for presuming that Juventus sold him as he has an attitude problem? None of his quote above is based on any research or factual evidence, he has just come to the conclusion that Juventus have sold a young boy because he has an attitude problem.

Secondly, Souness' sustained agenda against Pogba, in which he seems to get genuinely angry when he makes his points, is another example of him targeting a black player for his attitude and work rate. So this isn't an isolated incident.

Thirdly, Adebayor was 25 when Arsenal sold him, and contrary to popular opinion, Wenger has admitted that he wanted to keep him at the club. So he wasn't forced out of the door due to an attitude problem. Kean is 19 amd by no means "about to enter his best years", so there is no comparison when it comes to age. He is Italian, so there's no commonality there. They have no relation in terms of clubs. Souness had a selection of hundreds of players with attitude problems (Bellamy, Icardi, Tevez) but he decided to choose another black player (the only commonality that these two players have).

Finally, comparing black players to other black players ins't solely a Souness issue. Whilst I agree that his Drogba to Lukaku comparison's aren't racist, there's definitely an issue with pundits tarring all black players with the same brush. Pogba gets compared to Toure as opposed to Gerrard for example. Bailly and Koulilbaly,

Anyway, your post is deeply flawed.

I don't think you got what I mean in some points so allow me to explain.

the 1st bolded bit is exactly that. From the point of view of an old British, low quality, jump the gun style British pundit who does not care to do any research on anything outside of England, his opinion is legit as he cannot understand why they would release him at this stage of his career. I don't think he made that basis on the fact his skin is black.

Also Moise Kean came out and said he did not leave because of racism in Italy. It is actually quoted from an interview.

2nd bolded bit : Pogba enrages multiple United fans on this forum, many of whom are black and it has little to do with the fact that Pogba is black. I too have questioned Pogba's application at least and seen him half heartedly chasing players and pointing to others to do the defensive work. I am also black so I guess I am racist for "hating" on another black man, as one cannot dig out a black guy.

3rd Bolded bit: Yes Adebebayor wanted to leave (Souness ignorance) but it was clear why he mentioned Adebayor, if you care to read the quote. Icardi has literally only just now been sold by Inter and is not a young player with promise so it wouldn't make sense in the context of what he is saying; He could have used Tevez transfer to Juve again is not a viable comparison as he was 29 and on a huge wage. Bellamy also does not apply. the only player who you could kind of get the comparison would be Balotelli leaving Inter but he too is black. Souness has slated Bellamy and Tevez in the past funny enough, but in this case he is referring to the age, potential and current stages of the players career, wages and fee received. If there are many white examples then fine.

"they’ve got an older strike force, you’re selling a 19-year-old who won’t be hurting you wage wise. You’ve not got £100million plus for him, I think there will be other issues there"

‘It doesn’t make any common sense if you’re Juventus, it is as if they’re saying “we don’t care how good he is going to be, you can take him” which would suggest off the field activities are not the best."

"Right away you’re thinking, “he’s not selling him because he’s not a good football player, it is because there is something not quite right about him”. That was a boy who had all the talent you could ever wish for but didn’t do it.’

4th Bolded bit : everyone does this to a degree. Sean Longsquets is being compared to Michael Carrick. I actually feel Pogba is more Yaya than Gerrard as he does not play with the intensity of a young Gerrard, nor the desire and fight especially in tracking back (young Gerrard more so). Yaya and Pogba both spend a lot of time walking, have sublime technical and physical capabilities. They are also tall and black. The reality is you will have more similarities between players of West African descent as we share many attributes, especially the physical ones. There aren't many white midfielders with the rangy pace and power of Pogba and Yaya, combined with Technique. Maybe Kaka?

 

[Inigo Montoya]

I don't think you got what I mean in some points so allow me to explain.

the 1st bolded bit is exactly that. From the point of view of an old British, low quality, jump the gun style British pundit who does not care to do any research on anything outside of England, his opinion is legit as he cannot understand why they would release him at this stage of his career. I don't think he made that basis on the fact his skin is black.

Also Moise Kean came out and said he did not leave because of racism in Italy. It is actually quoted from an interview.

2nd bolded bit : Pogba enrages multiple United fans on this forum, many of whom are black and it has little to do with the fact that Pogba is black. I too have questioned Pogba's application at least and seen him half heartedly chasing players and pointing to others to do the defensive work. I am also black so I guess I am racist for "hating" on another black man, as one cannot dig out a black guy.

3rd Bolded bit: Yes Adebebayor wanted to leave (Souness ignorance) but it was clear why he mentioned Adebayor, if you care to read the quote. Icardi has literally only just now been sold by Inter and is not a young player with promise so it wouldn't make sense in the context of what he is saying; He could have used Tevez transfer to Juve again is not a viable comparison as he was 29 and on a huge wage. Bellamy also does not apply. the only player who you could kind of get the comparison would be Balotelli leaving Inter but he too is black. Souness has slated Bellamy and Tevez in the past funny enough, but in this case he is referring to the age, potential and current stages of the players career, wages and fee received. If there are many white examples then fine.

"they’ve got an older strike force, you’re selling a 19-year-old who won’t be hurting you wage wise. You’ve not got £100million plus for him, I think there will be other issues there"

‘It doesn’t make any common sense if you’re Juventus, it is as if they’re saying “we don’t care how good he is going to be, you can take him” which would suggest off the field activities are not the best."

"Right away you’re thinking, “he’s not selling him because he’s not a good football player, it is because there is something not quite right about him”. That was a boy who had all the talent you could ever wish for but didn’t do it.’

4th Bolded bit : everyone does this to a degree. Sean Longsquets is being compared to Michael Carrick. I actually feel Pogba is more Yaya than Gerrard as he does not play with the intensity of a young Gerrard, nor the desire and fight especially in tracking back (young Gerrard more so). Yaya and Pogba both spend a lot of time walking, have sublime technical and physical capabilities. They are also tall and black. The reality is you will have more similarities between players of West African descent as we share many attributes, especially the physical ones. There aren't many white midfielders with the rangy pace and power of Pogba and Yaya, combined with Technique. Maybe Kaka?

Then use Kaka as a valid comparison not pull out another black player purely on their colour

 

[Stacks]

Then use Kaka as a valid comparison not pull out another black player purely on their colour

Nope, because Pogba plays more similar to Yaya than Kaka. Both Pogba and Yaya can play in a deeper role where as Kaka started as a winger and plays SS. Kaka also plays more rushed and direct than the pair of them. They are actually more similar (Yaya and Pogba) than to Kaka and you don't have to pretend so as not to appear rahcist!

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Nope, because Pogba plays more similar to Yaya than Kaka. Both Pogba and Yaya can play in a deeper role where as Kaka started as a winger and plays SS. Kaka also plays more rushed and direct than the pair of them. They are actually more similar (Yaya and Pogba) than to Kaka and you don't have to pretend so as not to appear rahcist!

Look, it’s not the point I was trying to make. I’d love for Pogba to play like Yaya more often if I’m honest.

It’s Souness’ lazy comparisons I take issue with

 

[JulesWinnfield]

Souness isn’t being racist or intentionally trying to be.

What he does is lazy stereotyping towards black players.

If a black player isn’t performing to the standards, then Souness labels them lazy.

Comparing Kean to Adebayor is lazy stereotyping just because they are both black and strikers.

Souness compared Lukaku to Drogba a few years ago, just because they both played for Chelsea, are strikers and both black. Even though Drogba is a completely different type of striker.

Lazy stereotyping and racism are different, even though there is a fine line between the two.

Comparing Jermain Defoe to Drogba would be odd and probably skin based. Suggesting the only similarities between Lukaku and Drogba is skin colour and that must be lazy stereotyping is a hell of a reach.

 

[Nanotron]

It’s tone deaf racism at the least, he doesn’t realise it but someone needs to have a word. At the very worst it’s dog whistle racism. Either way there’s no defending his comments about young black lads because, let’s face it, they’re the target of most of his rants.

He had a go a Moise Kean the other day, said something along the lines of “Juventus don’t let players go, you have to question his attitude”.

Kean isn’t Balotelli and has never caused issues anywhere so where’s he got that from? As I said, at best it’s tone deaf, at worst it’s dog whistle. Either way someone needs to have a word before he gets sacked like Strachan did.

I dont agree. @Stacks sums it up better than me. I think its harsh and completely unnecessary to push for or expect someone to be sacked for what was said.

 

[nore1975]

Sachin Nakrani has an article in The Guardian. To my mind The Guardian is one of the finer British newspapers which reports the news rather than the Daily Mail which is obsessed with gossip nonsense. His article wouldn't be out of place in the DM. It is absolute nonsense. Souness doesn't strike me as a racist. Indeed he has never hesitated in signing black players. So he uses two black players to make a point. So what. Racial profiling. Give me a break. Nakrani wrote a shit article. Am I racist because I believe this cause he doesn't look like your typical pasty face Brit and his name isn't Brian Smith. Do I have to find an article by a white journalist to even the score. Where does this nonsense end?

 

[SweetRightFoot]

So many blindly ignorant posts in this thread

and yes I'm talking about all the posts calling Souness either a bigoted fool or a 'dog whistle' using EDL flag waver.

Saying Kean could have professional issues because of his low transfer fee, and comparing him to another striker who, famously, had issues with his professionalism and was sold for a low fee could be construed as a little mean but definitely not racist just because they are both black.

All you people calling him racist for this are just as bad as the stereotyping racists you claim to fight against because your tarring a man with a brush that doesn't fit the profile. Old white man says something negative about a young black player? Racist, check. Despite the first hand accounts of him being anti-racist back in the 70's.

It's almost funny how literally hours after the comments that Kean got dropped from the Italy squad for being late; a fact none of the people criticising Souness seem to acknowledge. Let's revisit this thread at the end of the season and see how he kicks on. I even had him in my fantasy football team in preseason, thought he was a great buy for Everton, interested to see how he does.

 

[RochaRoja]

It's almost funny how literally hours after the comments that Kean got dropped from the Italy squad for being late.

It’s totally irrelevant though. If I just assume a black guy is a criminal based on nothing other than his race and then it turns out that at a later date he is convicted of a criminal offence, it doesn’t make my original assumption any less ignorant or racially prejudiced.

 

[Stacks]

It’s totally irrelevant though. If I just assume a black guy is a criminal based on nothing other than his race and then it turns out that at a later date he is convicted of a criminal offence, it doesn’t make my original assumption any less ignorant or racially prejudiced.

that's true. The issue is that people are ignoring his rationale and just claiming it is because Moise is black. Like people have accused Gary Nev of being racist because he constantly has a go at PP who happens to be black. If anything Souness is an ignorant pundit who is un-knowledgable about players in foreign leagues

 

[RochaRoja]

My issue with calling it "racism" is that, regardless of whether it is more damaging than the over racism of a small minority, is clearly a much less severe act on an individual scale than the racist actions of KKK loons and their like. And it is often not intentionally racist, which to me is a critical factor.

Raise awareness of it? Yes. I don't think "calling people out" on it, or shaming them etc is the best way to go about it. If you want to encourage people to be aware of their subconscious biases, a different context is needed.

In this case, Souness can be called out on having a detailed opinion based on complete ignorance of the topic and filling in the gaps with racial stereotyping. Calling him racist for doing so is akin to lumping him in with KKK loons who also fall under that label and is more likely to achieve the opposite of increased awareness. I imagine Souness rejects the matter out of hand because he doesn't actively hold racist views and it would be absurd for him to be lumped in with overt racists.

A different conversation that doesn't evoke the overt racism of overt racists and focuses on the subtler implications of stereotyping might be a more receptive one in a lot of cases. Might also make it easier to actually talk about if raising the prospect of stereotyping doesn't raise the spectre of labelling another person racist. On the internet that is easy, but in real life that's a challenging prospect.

By “calling him out”, I’m not talking about “cancelling” him and hounding him out of television forever. I’m saying that someone at Sky should be making it clear that he thinks a bit more about what he’s saying before spouting something which, whether he meant it or not, sounds a bit questionable to anyone who isn’t a “you can’t sing baa baa black sheep any more PC gone mad” bore.

People on all ends of the spectrum need to really reconcile the fact that someone can say something racist or have racial biases without being “a racist”. People get so defensive when the R word is even alluded to which means we can never really have a proper conversation about the different layers of racism within society.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

He compared Kean and Adebayor because they both played upfront, about to enter their best years and were sold prematurely. Again you have decided yourself that race was the reason.

You are so wrong with this. There have been plenty of players that were young strikers about to hit their prime that were sold prematurely. But it just so happens that Souness chooses Adebayor to compare to Kean, why is this when Souness could have just as easily chose a white player.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Comparing Jermain Defoe to Drogba would be odd and probably skin based. Suggesting the only similarities between Lukaku and Drogba is skin colour and that must be lazy stereotyping is a hell of a reach.

Skin colour, both played for Chelsea and are stocky and well built. Defoe doesn’t fit the latter two points. The fact is Lukaku has never played anything like Drogba. Drogba was a Target Man/Complete Forward. Lukaku is an Advanced Striker that has always been at his best on the shoulder of the defender, Drogba was better with his back to the defence and holding the ball up, great at flick ons etc. Completely different players.

 

[Jeppers7]

So basically it's that racist card again. Honestly I just wish we as non white people would stop playing that card and just take things as they are. Snowflake generation, boils my piss. we should be grateful to be welcomed into a modern developed world. The banter, its just sticks and stones end of the day. Much better back in my dads day when you could call a spade a spade and people could be honest with him to his face.

Is this a serious post ? Can it be removed because it’s very offensive.

 

[SweetRightFoot]

Skin colour, both played for Chelsea and are stocky and well built. Defoe doesn’t fit the latter two points. The fact is Lukaku has never played anything like Drogba. Drogba was a Target Man/Complete Forward. Lukaku is an Advanced Striker that has always been at his best on the shoulder of the defender, Drogba was better with his back to the defence and holding the ball up, great at flick ons etc. Completely different players.

Yes! and I think you forgot to mention they actually had different hairstyles as well! and different names! Also one was top class and one is sh*te so you missed that too!

Jeez, you gunna start a petition to ban The White Pele chant too as Rooney isn't Brazilian and doesn't sell Viagra?

 

[Nanotron]

You are so wrong with this. There have been plenty of players that were young strikers about to hit their prime that were sold prematurely. But it just so happens that Souness chooses Adebayor to compare to Kean, why is this when Souness could have just as easily chose a white player.

He maybe should have used Balotelli then. Oh wait .......

 

[SweetRightFoot]

He maybe should have used Balotelli then. Oh wait .......

Berahino?

 

[mav_9me]

He maybe should have used Balotelli then. Oh wait .......

Maybe he could have used Bendtner?

 

[mav_9me]

From what I can tell, souness is overtly non racist. When he signed Mark Walters for rangers, he warned him it might be difficult for him because of the racist crowd. Or this story from Howard Gayle on Tommy Smith being a racist cnut in the 70s:

I received the ball, controlled it, and lashed a shot towards goal. Tommy Smith was on the other team and it hit him on the leg. It clearly stung and some of the other players started laughing. I had a smile on my face as well. I saw it as karma. Tommy responded with a tirade of abuse. It was ‘black this, black that’.

The place went quiet. Everybody could hear it, including the staff. He was a legend. I was a nothing. Nobody said a word.

I’d had enough of him: this bitter old man. So I went over and squared up: nose to nose. I looked at him dead in the eye. “You know what, Tommy; one night you’ll be taking a piss at home and I’ll be there waiting for you with a baseball bat,” I said, calmly. “And then we’ll see what you’ve got to say.” I wanted to start a fight with him. And then he walked away.

I look back now and remember this moment as a real low point. I’d grown up loving Tommy Smith. He was a hero of Bill Shankly’s team. But you only see the player, the legend: the hero. You don’t know the person. From then on, he was no hero of mine. As a human being, Tommy Smith was a disappointment, a complete let-down.

Graeme Souness was the only one that came over in the immediate aftermath. “Well done, Howard,” he said. “Tommy deserved that”. Graeme was a true leader.​

I don't think it ever occurred to most people from that generation who were taking a stand of some sort against racism (I mean, he's hardly being a civil rights advocate here, just a few good examples of acting against his racist surroundings) that colored people would still be discriminated in the absence of overt racism. It's probably absurd for souness this is happening, whom I can imagine in his own self view has stood up against racism at a time where doing so was probably less popular than just being straight up racist.

The issues of race today are in many ways quite different than they were back then, but the way it is critiqued is often as if it is of similar character to when overt racism was normalised. It needs a different vocabulary partly because it trivialises the debate on stereotyping when it all gets lumped into the same basket, and that in turn risks trivialising speaking up against the rising current of overt racism we do see emerging as well.

Lot of brilliant posts explaining the subtlety here.

Particularly this is a brilliant post.

And as an South Asian in America I am very much guilty of making lazy stereotype assumptions. I think that's just a human thing to do. All we can do is recognize and try to rise above.

 

[The Mitcher]

Honestly, the lengths the caf will go to defend their darlings. Since when has Souness ever been racist? Liverpool pundit finds his United player to rag on, it's Pogba, therefore racist. Just crazy.

 

[Snow]

Sachin Nakrani has an article in The Guardian. To my mind The Guardian is one of the finer British newspapers which reports the news rather than the Daily Mail which is obsessed with gossip nonsense. His article wouldn't be out of place in the DM. It is absolute nonsense. Souness doesn't strike me as a racist. Indeed he has never hesitated in signing black players. So he uses two black players to make a point. So what. Racial profiling. Give me a break. Nakrani wrote a shit article. Am I racist because I believe this cause he doesn't look like your typical pasty face Brit and his name isn't Brian Smith. Do I have to find an article by a white journalist to even the score. Where does this nonsense end?

I'm not gonna throw my hat into the debate about Souness specifically but this argument doesn't make any sense. Why would a racist not sign black people? An NBA owner was a notorious racist and got kicked out of the league for being one only after having employed black people for playing basketball for 35 years. The players made him money so he didn't care who they were, he just didn't want to associate with non-white people because he was racist.

 

[Winzaghi]

Gary Neville is also being accused of racism due to his hard on for Pogba. Scholes will be next. I never noticed Souness was thought of as racist until he kept on about Pogba and people made memes on Twitter. So the issue is that Souness compared a black striker (Kean) who was sold by a big club whilst still in the 1st team scoring goals with loads of promise, with another young black striker, who was also a 1st teamer with promise but was possibly problematic and sold by Arsenal? Had he used another player, then this would of just passed? It seems he is posing the question why they were both sold at this stage of their careers and he gave valid reasons for his surprise. We were all surprised when Everton snapped Kean up. I guess Souness should of been more woke and used Bellamy as an example of a striker sold at a surprising stage of his career (actually he had off the field issues too) or maybe he could of cited Ronaldo going to Inter (but he black too), Anelka (except he also black), possibly Tevez getting let go by United (except he turned out a cnut), maybe if there were lots of similar examples of strikers sold like this, then he wouldn't of stumbled on the racism of using Adebayor as the basis but truth is there are few examples of this except maybe Balotelli (unfortunately also black). I guess if he compared Kean to Balotelli this would of been even worse. Truth is it is rare for a big side to sell one of their promising and most talented strikers on the cheap, especially when they have just broken through or are doing ok. I say it's more ignorance on the part of Souness but it's still causing more fuss than is necessary.

It wasn't the comparison to Adebayor (that only compounded things), but his automatic assumption that there must be something wrong with Kean's attitude simply because Juventus have sold him. Why in the world would that be his first assumption? What about Kean could lead him to even think that?

And you can't say he knows something about him. He didn't even know if he had a buyback clause or not. That's the level of his punditry. He doesn't have a clue about anything, he just speaks from his gut and betrays his biases very plainly when he does so.

 

[SweetRightFoot]

Maybe he could have used Bendtner?

Not a bad suggestion, off the field antics, wasted potential but in reality he's always been a bit too rubbish to be comparable. 31 now and back in Denmark after a productive time in Sweden. Quick look at transfermarkt says the most money anyone's ever spent on him was Sunderland paying a £1mil loan fee back in 11/12, so not comparable in the sold before his prime, he had his contracts terminated at Arsenal and Wolfsburg.

 

[Stacks]

You are so wrong with this. There have been plenty of players that were young strikers about to hit their prime that were sold prematurely. But it just so happens that Souness chooses Adebayor to compare to Kean, why is this when Souness could have just as easily chose a white player.

Ok. Based off the list of red herrings Souness gave, which strikers matched that criteria in England?

 

[Stacks]

It wasn't the comparison to Adebayor (that only compounded things), but his automatic assumption that there must be something wrong with Kean's attitude simply because Juventus have sold him. Why in the world would that be his first assumption? What about Kean could lead him to even think that?

And you can't say he knows something about him. He didn't even know if he had a buyback clause or not. That's the level of his punditry. He doesn't have a clue about anything, he just speaks from his gut and betrays his biases very plainly when he does so.

For one he did not question his attitude. he said "which would suggest off the field activities are not the best" this is not saying someone has a bad attitude. This was an example of the rahcist brigade looking for racial stereotypes.

secondly, he gave his reasons for his assumptions, which everyone choose to ignore.

 

[Superden]

Is this a serious post ? Can it be removed because it’s very offensive.

I thought it was a brief but succint summing of the position quite a few posters seem to have taken. All that was missing was the whole ' black / coloured friends thing' substituting for signing black players. End of the days the Krays were not bad lads, they loved their mum, aww.

 

[Superden]

Racism is a character trait and/or a mentality / attitude. A person can have lots of other great character traits or exhibit lots of positive behaviours and still hold racist views and express them. Its not mutually exclusive. Reports highlighting Souness's behaviour with others, his previous signings, his great relationships with other black players, his general misdemeanour etc can in no way rule out him being racist.

 

[Jeppers7]

I thought it was a brief but succint summing of the position quite a few posters seem to have taken. All that was missing was the whole ' black / coloured friends thing' substituting for signing black players. End of the days the Krays were not bad lads, they loved their mum, aww.

Ah...sorry I took it out of context....still a little close to the bone with some of the language

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Racism is a character trait and/or a mentality / attitude. A person can have lots of other great character traits or exhibit lots of positive behaviours and still hold racist views and express them. Its not mutually exclusive. Reports highlighting Souness's behaviour with others, his previous signings, his great relationships with other black players, his general misdemeanour etc can in no way rule out him being racist.

BRILLIANT post.

 

[SteveJ]

“When I played in midfield, I had one thought: ‘I’m going to stop the guy I’m playing against today, then develop my own game from there.’

“In contrast, Pogba’s first thought is to show everybody how clever and cute he can be.

“If that’s the example your main man in midfield is setting, you’re too easy to play against, and until they fix it, United’s back five will be fire-fighting.

“They can spend massively on Maguire, give Victor Lindelof a new five-year deal, De Gea four more lucrative years and sign Wan-Bissaka for £50m and it will all be money down the drain.”

(Times)