Gary Neville is also being accused of racism due to his hard on for Pogba. Scholes will be next. I never noticed Souness was thought of as racist until he kept on about Pogba and people made memes on Twitter. So the issue is that Souness compared a black striker (Kean) who was sold by a big club whilst still in the 1st team scoring goals with loads of promise, with another young black striker, who was also a 1st teamer with promise but was possibly problematic and sold by Arsenal? Had he used another player, then this would of just passed? It seems he is posing the question why they were both sold at this stage of their careers and he gave valid reasons for his surprise. We were all surprised when Everton snapped Kean up. I guess Souness should of been more woke and used Bellamy as an example of a striker sold at a surprising stage of his career (actually he had off the field issues too) or maybe he could of cited Ronaldo going to Inter (but he black too), Anelka (except he also black), possibly Tevez getting let go by United (except he turned out a cnut), maybe if there were lots of similar examples of strikers sold like this, then he wouldn't of stumbled on the racism of using Adebayor as the basis but truth is there are few examples of this except maybe Balotelli (unfortunately also black). I guess if he compared Kean to Balotelli this would of been even worse. Truth is it is rare for a big side to sell one of their promising and most talented strikers on the cheap, especially when they have just broken through or are doing ok. I say it's more ignorance on the part of Souness but it's still causing more fuss than is necessary.
Graeme Sourness | Retires from “punditry”
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Gary Neville is also being accused of racism due to his hard on for Pogba. Scholes will be next. I never noticed Souness was thought of as racist until he kept on about Pogba and people made memes on Twitter. So the issue is that Souness compared a black striker (Kean) who was sold by a big club whilst still in the 1st team scoring goals with loads of promise, with another young black striker, who was also a 1st teamer with promise but was possibly problematic and sold by Arsenal? Had he used another player, then this would of just passed? It seems he is posing the question why they were both sold at this stage of their careers and he gave valid reasons for his surprise. We were all surprised when Everton snapped Kean up. I guess Souness should of been more woke and used Bellamy as an example of a striker sold at a surprising stage of his career (actually he had off the field issues too) or maybe he could of cited Ronaldo going to Inter (but he black too), Anelka (except he also black), possibly Tevez getting let go by United (except he turned out a cnut), maybe if there were lots of similar examples of strikers sold like this, then he wouldn't of stumbled on the racism of using Adebayor as the basis but truth is there are few examples of this except maybe Balotelli (unfortunately also black). I guess if he compared Kean to Balotelli this would of been even worse. Truth is it is rare for a big side to sell one of their promising and most talented strikers on the cheap, especially when they have just broken through or are doing ok. I say it's more ignorance on the part of Souness but it's still causing more fuss than is necessary.
Pathetic people trying to label him a racist. Damaging a guys reputation for no reason. The reasons people are calling him a racist means we are all racists. Unconcious bias. Were all racists lads.
Exactly, labelling a pundit racist as he has criticised a few black players is pretty low. He was praising Arsenal’s front three at the weekend and all of them are black so I cannot understand where it stems from. There was news that Kean was dropped from the Italy squad for lack of discipline and absolute no response here to the headline.
Maybe, just maybe Souness knows a little bit more what goes on at clubs than the armchair pundits on here but is made out as the lead role in Love Thy Neighbour.
Souness probably has grievances against Utd/Everton players due to his club history etc but then are we not all bigots for our views. Racism isn’t always black and white.
Supplanting the 'I'm not racist, I have black friends' is the more catchy 'I'm not racist, I praised Lacazette and Aubameyang at the weekend'
Supplanting the 'I'm not racist, I have black friends' is the more catchy 'I'm not racist, I praised Lacazette and Aubameyang at the weekend'
Souness ever criticised a white player?
You know what, I believe he has. That must mean he is immune to any and all charges of racial bias. You're a genius. Well done.
So when you praise a black player it is just to fool people into believing you are not a racist and when you criticise a black player you are Alf Garnett. Obviously he doesn’t like Pogba one bit but maybe 50% of redcafe don’t either but I wouldn’t label them as racist.
Snowflakes of today you cannot have an opinion without being accused of something.
Ah, the classic snowflake epithet. Funnily enough, the only thing I'm offended by currently is your intellect.
No answer or response to any question on Souness’s views but just a derisory remark.
Don’t be offended by people’s remarks on the internet, just stick to bashing people on twitter when the opportunity arises.
I'd respond if you said anything worth responding to. Your chosen line of defence for Souness was that he has praised Arsenal's front three and he has criticised white players before
deary me. Have a word with yourself.This whole thread is funny. Especially people saying Souness rep is being damaged based on comments. And its funny, cos thats what he did to Kean.
So are we to suggest Souness is right, being late once = off the field activities. I mean if were equating it with that logic, I guess, people thus saying Souness criticising black players = Souness is a racist, stands to reason given were going on those grounds with absolutely no other context surrounding both statements. It would be like be doing this:
Pathetic souness labelling Kean as trouble. Damaging a guys reputation for no reason. The reasons people call him troublesome with off field activities means we are all troublesome with off field actitivies. Unconcious bias. Were all troublesome lads.
I mean, it says he was left out for being late.
So are we to suggest Souness is right, being late once = off the field activities. I mean if were equating it with that logic, I guess, people thus saying Souness criticising black players = Souness is a racist, stands to reason given were going on those grounds with absolutely no other context surrounding both statements. It would be like be doing this:
Pathetic souness labelling Kean as trouble. Damaging a guys reputation for no reason. The reasons people call him troublesome with off field activities means we are all troublesome with off field actitivies. Unconcious bias. Were all troublesome lads.
I'd respond if you said anything worth responding to. Your chosen line of defence for Souness was that he has praised Arsenal's front three and he has criticised white players before
Haha you responded. So where are the racist undertones? Surely you are not that blinkered in your hatred for Souness?
Do you hate him for being Scottish/Liverpool player or criticising Adebayor?
He's a sour b*stard yeah but when people like @BobbyManc start calling him racist because he says a black player is lazy (shock horror, some are) or he says another one is being unprofessional (shock horror, they can be) is just agenda-driven short-sightedness.
Pretty obvious what your agenda is when you take issue with comments about Yaya Toure getting lazy in his older years, not sure the guy ever sprinted once during his time in England .
Putting it simply there's 2 ways to take Sourness's criticism. You can look at his experience, see the parallels (Juve selling a bright young forward with his best years ahead of him for under £30million? You have to agree that in the current climate that's odd) and the fact Kean got dropped from the Italy squad hours after what he said
or...
You can just say that he's a racist old white man who doesn't like Africans, which is a much simpler pill to swallow.
Cos he's so young, only time will tell which option is the truth, hell it could even be both, but until Sourness starts dropping n-bombs and displaying other definite indicators of having a racial bias then calling him a racist is just plain wrong. Don't care what memes you've seen on Twitter.
Pretty obvious what your agenda is when you take issue with comments about Yaya Toure getting lazy in his older years, not sure the guy ever sprinted once during his time in England 
.Putting it simply there's 2 ways to take Sourness's criticism. You can look at his experience, see the parallels (Juve selling a bright young forward with his best years ahead of him for under £30million? You have to agree that in the current climate that's odd) and the fact Kean got dropped from the Italy squad hours after what he said
or...
You can just say that he's a racist old white man who doesn't like Africans, which is a much simpler pill to swallow.
Cos he's so young, only time will tell which option is the truth, hell it could even be both, but until Sourness starts dropping n-bombs and displaying other definite indicators of having a racial bias then calling him a racist is just plain wrong. Don't care what memes you've seen on Twitter.
Great posts @BobbyManc
Mancini actually said himself that it was punishment and they need to be better (the two dropped) so yeah it came from their own manager. Also he has Raiola as an agent. A known toe rag and difficult character to deal with. You made a false equivalence there. Criticising a black player is never deemed racist but turning up late for team meetings is a punishable offence in the football realm. Unless he was punished for being black? Anyway I am sure Moise is a nice boy and Souness isn't as evil as being made out and there are plenty reason why Souness would be suspicious over Everton and United players outside of their skin colour
To be honest. I was a bit suspicious of his attirude as well. I know souness dont like pogba and wasnt fan of adebayor. But I have seen nothing indicating its because of their skin color.
But they are black and one must look at everything intersectional when dealing with a person from a minority of marginised group! Also you realise that you are a racist now right?
The Adebayor comparison doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, Adebayor forced his move from Arsenal, he wasn’t banished for attitude problems.
I think this is too simplistic a way to look at it, as @BobbyManc said, he’s not being accused of hating blacks, he’s being accused of having racial prejudices based off negative stereotypes. There’s a huge difference and some, me included believe it cloud’s his analysis. No one’s calling him the leader of the KKK.
The funny thing is if souness posted here and wrote the things he says on tv. Most would agree when it comes to pogba.
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Yeah but the accusations of racial prejudice stem from him not liking Pogba and comparing 2 transfers and making a link as to why they were sold. You can call my point of view simplistic and that's fine but your sugarcoating it yourself as you are still calling him a racist.
I'll just state that when I saw the headline I thought 'Oh here we go, Sourness showing his colours.. ' but the actual quotes don't paint that story.
Sourness said:
Selling Kean for less than 30mil (to a PL club!) does not make financial sense. He's mentioning Adebayor because he's at the Emirates. Adebayor got sold early for not a lot of cash because he lacked professionalism. Souness suggests the same might be true of Kean and is pretty much proven right within hours.
The only thing Souness is guilty of in this instance is not being mindful enough of the Twitter mob taking dailymail headlines as gospel and labelling him all sorts. Perhaps it's best if he never says anything negative about a black player again. Who knows, who cares, don't like the guy but he's not in the wrong here.
I don't think he's overtly or intentionally racist.
I think it's pretty obvious that in the absence of being properly informed, he's fallen back on unacknowledged racial prejudice and stereotyping to conjure up a viewpoint here.
The public sphere needs a more nuanced vocabulary for this stuff as it makes no sense to put such behaviour in with genuine and unapologetic racists, or even apologetic closet racists. If it nevertheless deserving of criticism as he's characterised Kean grossly unfairly and ignorantly here for no good reason.
I can kind of get down with this viewpoint
So basically it's that racist card again. Honestly I just wish we as non white people would stop playing that card and just take things as they are. Snowflake generation, boils my piss. we should be grateful to be welcomed into a modern developed world. The banter, its just sticks and stones end of the day. Much better back in my dads day when you could call a spade a spade and people could be honest with him to his face.
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From what I can tell, souness is overtly non racist. When he signed Mark Walters for rangers, he warned him it might be difficult for him because of the racist crowd. Or this story from Howard Gayle on Tommy Smith being a racist cnut in the 70s:
I received the ball, controlled it, and lashed a shot towards goal. Tommy Smith was on the other team and it hit him on the leg. It clearly stung and some of the other players started laughing. I had a smile on my face as well. I saw it as karma. Tommy responded with a tirade of abuse. It was ‘black this, black that’.
The place went quiet. Everybody could hear it, including the staff. He was a legend. I was a nothing. Nobody said a word.
I’d had enough of him: this bitter old man. So I went over and squared up: nose to nose. I looked at him dead in the eye. “You know what, Tommy; one night you’ll be taking a piss at home and I’ll be there waiting for you with a baseball bat,” I said, calmly. “And then we’ll see what you’ve got to say.” I wanted to start a fight with him. And then he walked away.
I look back now and remember this moment as a real low point. I’d grown up loving Tommy Smith. He was a hero of Bill Shankly’s team. But you only see the player, the legend: the hero. You don’t know the person. From then on, he was no hero of mine. As a human being, Tommy Smith was a disappointment, a complete let-down.
Graeme Souness was the only one that came over in the immediate aftermath. “Well done, Howard,” he said. “Tommy deserved that”. Graeme was a true leader.
The place went quiet. Everybody could hear it, including the staff. He was a legend. I was a nothing. Nobody said a word.
I’d had enough of him: this bitter old man. So I went over and squared up: nose to nose. I looked at him dead in the eye. “You know what, Tommy; one night you’ll be taking a piss at home and I’ll be there waiting for you with a baseball bat,” I said, calmly. “And then we’ll see what you’ve got to say.” I wanted to start a fight with him. And then he walked away.
I look back now and remember this moment as a real low point. I’d grown up loving Tommy Smith. He was a hero of Bill Shankly’s team. But you only see the player, the legend: the hero. You don’t know the person. From then on, he was no hero of mine. As a human being, Tommy Smith was a disappointment, a complete let-down.
Graeme Souness was the only one that came over in the immediate aftermath. “Well done, Howard,” he said. “Tommy deserved that”. Graeme was a true leader.
I don't think it ever occurred to most people from that generation who were taking a stand of some sort against racism (I mean, he's hardly being a civil rights advocate here, just a few good examples of acting against his racist surroundings) that colored people would still be discriminated in the absence of overt racism. It's probably absurd for souness this is happening, whom I can imagine in his own self view has stood up against racism at a time where doing so was probably less popular than just being straight up racist.
The issues of race today are in many ways quite different than they were back then, but the way it is critiqued is often as if it is of similar character to when overt racism was normalised. It needs a different vocabulary partly because it trivialises the debate on stereotyping when it all gets lumped into the same basket, and that in turn risks trivialising speaking up against the rising current of overt racism we do see emerging as well.
No, I wasnt trying to make an equivalence. I was trying to show how silly this thread has been. As ive said previously in this thread, I dont think Souness is racist. I just think hes ignorant without realising it and to top it off, a really poor pundit who is making negative assumptions with nothing to back it up.
Snowflakes! A desperately outdated term only used for weak arguments in my experience.
I thought the same.
John Cleese had the definitive analysis of the term 'snowflake' imo.
"Yes I've heard this word. I think sociopaths use it in an attempt to discredit the notion of empathy."
This sort of makes a lot of sense however the problem or indeed why i made that initial post is, the majority of people will label souness as a racist and put him in the same bracket as overt racists and it will spread like wildfire on social media when he is clearly not a racist.
You must have missed all those runs Yaya did coast-to-coast NBA style when attacking. He was lazy when defending thoughHe's a sour b*stard yeah but when people like @BobbyManc start calling him racist because he says a black player is lazy (shock horror, some are) or he says another one is being unprofessional (shock horror, they can be) is just agenda-driven short-sightedness.
Pretty obvious what your agenda is when you take issue with comments about Yaya Toure getting lazy in his older years, not sure the guy ever sprinted once during his time in England 
Putting it simply there's 2 ways to take Sourness's criticism. You can look at his experience, see the parallels (Juve selling a bright young forward with his best years ahead of him for under £30million? You have to agree that in the current climate that's odd) and the fact Kean got dropped from the Italy squad hours after what he said
or...
You can just say that he's a racist old white man who doesn't like Africans, which is a much simpler pill to swallow.
Cos he's so young, only time will tell which option is the truth, hell it could even be both, but until Sourness starts dropping n-bombs and displaying other definite indicators of having a racial bias then calling him a racist is just plain wrong. Don't care what memes you've seen on Twitter.
I agree with all of this
Nuanced is definitely a word I'd use to describe it. It's essentially a level of insidious racial generalising, and for that reason I think it seems difficult for some to understand it.
Souness isn’t being racist or intentionally trying to be.
What he does is lazy stereotyping towards black players.
If a black player isn’t performing to the standards, then Souness labels them lazy.
Comparing Kean to Adebayor is lazy stereotyping just because they are both black and strikers.
Souness compared Lukaku to Drogba a few years ago, just because they both played for Chelsea, are strikers and both black. Even though Drogba is a completely different type of striker.
Lazy stereotyping and racism are different, even though there is a fine line between the two.
What he does is lazy stereotyping towards black players.
If a black player isn’t performing to the standards, then Souness labels them lazy.
Comparing Kean to Adebayor is lazy stereotyping just because they are both black and strikers.
Souness compared Lukaku to Drogba a few years ago, just because they both played for Chelsea, are strikers and both black. Even though Drogba is a completely different type of striker.
Lazy stereotyping and racism are different, even though there is a fine line between the two.
Personally, although I agree that they are two different entities, I believe that lazy stereotyping is a form of racism in itself. Now, I've always been of the belief that Graham Souness is an old bigot whose comments are laced with racist undertones, so maybe I'm quite biased when it comes to this discussion.
However, the people who brush this off as just criticism or call us snowflakes seem to be the same people who aren't, and never have been targeted, by "lazy stereotypes".
For example, Patrick Cutrone, who was highly thought of in Italy, made a move to Wolves this summer for a fairly modest fee. Do you think Souness or any other pundit will come out and criticise his work ethic based on nothing but hunches and assumptions? How ridiculous would it sound if he compared his attitude to a random white player who, a decade ago, was transferred from a team that has no relation to Wolves, A.C. Milan or Cutrone? Seems like Souness is attempting to tar a group of black players with the same brush. As @BobbyManc stated earlier, all of these incidents in isolation are no racist, but when you bunch them together they begin to paint a pretty concerning picture.
Also, the labelling of black people as lazy is much more than just harmless ignorance as it is an historically charged stereotype that dates back over 100 years (that's a conversation for another time).
In terms of the Adebayor comparison, it's safe to assume that he has linked them together based purely on the colour of their skin. There is no other common link between the two transfers, which happened around a decade apart.
Lazy stereotyping is both a form of racism and a tool for racism. The more conscious the stereotyping is, the more it can be considered a tool. The less conscious the stereotyping is, the more deeply inherent the racism is.
Someone like Ben Shapiro uses lazy stereotyping very consciously as a tool for propagating his bigoted messages, it’s calculated and clinical.
Someone like Souness on the other hand clearly has deeply ingrained ideas about black players as can be seen not only by his constant lazy stereotyping but the way that stereotyping always manifests negatively with him seemingly becoming angry as a result of the assumptions he is making. It’s a completely irrational and emotional response that completely defies logic and reason.
No, it's still racism just a different kind of racism.
The sort of ambient racial biases that Souness displays and are so incredibly common in society are actually more damaging than the overt racism of a small minority of KKK loons. It's important to call out these things when they happen and make people aware of their often subconscious biases.
The irony is that Kean wanting out of Serie A makes much more sense than Cutrone because of the racism he's faved from crowds in Italy.
Exactly, 1-year left on his contract, subjected to racist abuse in Italy, yet Souness has come to the conclusion that he has an attitude problem.