German Football 23/24 |

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Zehner said:
Ironically, the BVB's main sponsor Evonik makes 2.9bn annually by producing plastic ;) But I guess the difference is, they are only paying the BVB €20m p. a. instead of the €25m p. a. Leverkusen gets from Bayer? ;)
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Are you seriously pretending that you are incapable of grasping the difference between sponsorship and (full) ownership? Why?
 
do.ob said:
Are you seriously pretending that you are incapable of grasping the difference between sponsorship and (full) ownership? Why?
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So you think Dortmund is 30% plastic club as well?

Ownership is not what bothers you. You think the club doesn't deserve to be where it is because it has less fans and followers. But unfortunately for you sport isn't a popularity contest. Your beloved traditional clubs in Bundesliga 2+ deserve to be where they are because they a) monetized the attention they receive less efficiently and/or b) failed to spend the money they generated from it efficiently.

But to answer your question: I don't think it matters. It is always implied that the plastic clubs have a competitive advantage over the rest, but I don't think they have. They sell attention to companies and those want to see a return on these investments. Bayer Leverkusen sells the attention it generates to Bayer and a few other sponsors, the BVB does the same with Evonik, 1&1 and a few others. If Bayer Leverkusen earns more than other clubs despite generating less attention, those other clubs should question why that is the case. Because Bayer certainly isn't spending that money for shits and giggles.
 
Zehner said:
But to answer your question: I don't think it matters. It is always implied that the plastic clubs have a competitive advantage over the rest, but I don't think they have. They sell attention to companies and those want to see a return on these investments.
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You have a point, but I don't think that matters. The big issue is that those plastic clubs take away ownership of the league from the fans. Ironically that probably is part of the reason why they actually do have an competitive advantage - they are owned by much more competent people than the true clubs.

In the end it comes down to what we want - do we want to have a league where everybody can participate as a member of the clubs playing there? Or do we want to have a league full of entertainment businesses like the PL? That likely would result in an increase in quality (I know that you are focussing on that a lot in these discussions) but it would also take away the soul of the league. Which is know much more beating in the second than in the first BL division I think.

It's not great how things go at these big clubs at the moment, but I always will feel connected to a league full of fan-owned clubs. The rest can entertain me without any emotional bond.
 
Zehner said:
So you think Dortmund is 30% plastic club as well?

Ownership is not what bothers you. You think the club doesn't deserve to be where it is because it has less fans and followers. But unfortunately for you sport isn't a popularity contest. Your beloved traditional clubs in Bundesliga 2+ deserve to be where they are because they a) monetized the attention they receive less efficiently and/or b) failed to spend the money they generated from it efficiently.

But to answer your question: I don't think it matters. It is always implied that the plastic clubs have a competitive advantage over the rest, but I don't think they have. They sell attention to companies and those want to see a return on these investments. Bayer Leverkusen sells the attention it generates to Bayer and a few other sponsors, the BVB does the same with Evonik, 1&1 and a few others. If Bayer Leverkusen earns more than other clubs despite generating less attention, those other clubs should question why that is the case. Because Bayer certainly isn't spending that money for shits and giggles.
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Trying your hand at fan fiction?

Wolfsburg, Hoffenheim and Leverkusen aren't called plastic because of their pitiful following. Just look at Freiburg, they are (one of the) the most liked club(s) in the country, despite being a rather small club.

I don't think anyone suggested in the slightest that Hertha, Hamburg or Schalke didn't make their own bed, either.

The notion that Bayer is selling sponsorships to itself, just like any other club, I won't even waste my time on.
 
Its Leipzig so i dont really care, but this ref is bullshit
 
stefan92 said:
You have a point, but I don't think that matters. The big issue is that those plastic clubs take away ownership of the league from the fans. Ironically that probably is part of the reason why they actually do have an competitive advantage - they are owned by much more competent people than the true clubs.

In the end it comes down to what we want - do we want to have a league where everybody can participate as a member of the clubs playing there? Or do we want to have a league full of entertainment businesses like the PL? That likely would result in an increase in quality (I know that you are focussing on that a lot in these discussions) but it would also take away the soul of the league. Which is know much more beating in the second than in the first BL division I think.

It's not great how things go at these big clubs at the moment, but I always will feel connected to a league full of fan-owned clubs. The rest can entertain me without any emotional bond.
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I see where you're coming from but I think it only sounds charming in theory. In reality, it makes no difference. You can hardly say that Dortmund or Bayern involve their fans in the decision making in any capacity. And if you're a fan of a club that's stuck with incompetent the leadership, it is a highly frustrating experience.

Anyway, for me it was about the double standards. As a Leverkusen fan, I'm obviously had this discussion a few times during my lifetime and people aren't criticizing that the club isn't fan owned, they are criticizing commercialization and the small fan size - which is hypocritical IMO for the described reasons. Your take is a bit idealistic from my perspective but it's not hypocritical.


do.ob said:
The notion that Bayer is selling sponsorships to itself, just like any other club, I won't even waste my time on.
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No, I rather think you have no counter argument to it. Whatever the sums Bayer pays us are, it has a positive impact or they wouldn't keep it up for so long. They are doing it out of economic reasoning. Attention for money, like everywhere.
 
Looks like Hertha are giving themselves a much-needed momentum boost. Though Fürth have been quite shocking.
 


Morey makes his return after 2.5 years of injuries, with Ryersion being out he could even play a bit today - though I assume Terzic benched Sülinho to have him as an alternative there, too.

Nmecha also gets his first start.
 
do.ob said:


Morey makes his return after 2.5 years of injuries, with Ryersion being out he could even play a bit today - though I assume Terzic benched Sülinho to have him as an alternative there, too.

Nmecha also gets his first start.
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Great for Morey.
But with Nmecha playing, I hope you suffer a humiliating loss.
 
I swear to god Bayer Leverkusen and Gladbach play each other every other week.

Rest of the time they play Stuttgart
 
Kobel didn't look good on that Bochum goal
 
What happened to Dortmund over the summer? They are looking so, so bad
 
It's okay to struggle a bit in Bochum, but this was just unacceptable. So many inexcusable individual decisions, you'd think this team has been getting hammered for weeks.
 
HTG said:
Great for Morey.
But with Nmecha playing, I hope you suffer a humiliating loss.
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I fully understand anyone, who wishes (sporting) ill on Nmecha, but your profile says you're supporting Bayern. How do you square such strong feeling with their Qatar partnership and Thomas Tuchel or Masraoui?
 
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do.ob said:
I fully understand anyone, who wishes (sporting) ill on Nmecha, but your profile says you're supporting Bayern. How do you square such strong feeling with their Qatar partnership and Thomas Tuchel or Masraoui?
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I abandoned my membership over the Qatar disaster. And Mazraoui can go feck himself. And no idea how Tuchel fits into this list.
 
HTG said:
I abandoned my membership over the Qatar disaster. And Mazraoui can go feck himself. And no idea how Tuchel fits into this list.
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I mean he signed up for Qatar FC and just today I read some headline about how he stated we shouldn't get moral about Saudi money. But kudos for canceling your membership, that's probably more than most do.
 
MrMarcello said:
The last fifteen minutes in the Hoffenheim match must have been something.

In the Union match, what did Aaronson do to get sent off?
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Being extremely stupid. First he threw the ball away and then he made a foul when he did not need to do one.
 
Grimaldo always starts the year well. The problem is how he finishes it.
 
It would be disappointing if this Leverkusen team doesn't get second spot this season, their squad seems pretty clear as the second best in the league. You could say Dortmund can compete in terms of the first XI, but Leverkusen have built a fantastic overall squad that really puts them ahead of the competition. Just going through the positions, they are pretty stacked:

CB: Tah, Tapsoba, Hincapie, Kosonou, Stanisic
RB: Frimpong, Arthur, Stanisic
LB: Grimaldo, Singraven
CM: Xhaka, Palacios, Andrich
AM: Wirtz, Hofmann, Adli, Amiri, Hlozek
ST: Boniface, Schick, Hlozek

And that's with keeping a positive cash flow this transfers season. Maybe one or two more may leave (Hincapie and Amiri) but even then that is a decent balance.

The only weak area where you feel they don't have quality is GK, Hradecky should have been replaced ages ago and isn't reliable. Other than that CM looks a bit thin since there are only 3 defensive minded midfielders for 2 positions they hold. Picking up Stanisic on loan with Grimaldo on a free were great deals.

Let's not forget Xabi, who has made Levekusen look really impressive since taking over.

I really hope they can accomplish something, either a DFB Cup win or a deep run in Europe (quarters or semi) to have accomplished something because this squad will likely be gutted next season. Wirtz, Frimpong and Xabi will surely leave along with one of Tapsoba or Kossonou. Maybe there would be hope of them staying if they can do something great this season.
 
Wow, that was impressive. Easily the best performance under Alonso so far
 
Acrobat7 said:
I only saw the highlights but you do play some pretty football. Happy for Xabi!
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I think yesterday we saw for the first time what the hype is really about. He did a great job last season, obviously, but you never really saw a clear handwriting.

The new signings were also amazing, Xhaka is so good!
 
Zehner said:
I think yesterday we saw for the first time what the hype is really about. He did a great job last season, obviously, but you never really saw a clear handwriting.

The new signings were also amazing, Xhaka is so good!
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Can’t wait for next summer when some random PL team bids €80m for Boniface.
 
Zehner said:
I think yesterday we saw for the first time what the hype is really about. He did a great job last season, obviously, but you never really saw a clear handwriting.

The new signings were also amazing, Xhaka is so good!
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Granit pairs up really well with Palacios. I hope he comes back to Basel towards the end of his career to play with his brother, but good to see him play well in the meantime.
 
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