For people wondering why Bayern is dominating the league so thoroughly.
Money explains why they are always in the mix for the title and why they win 2 out of 3 years. But it does not explain why they won soon nine titles in a row. And will maybe beat the 81 points record Dortmund had in 2011/12 for the 7th or 8th time...
And I do not understand why Bayern is always picked out like they would be the only one that purchases players in the Bundesliga - especially when it is players that before have played Bundesliga 2 like Kimmich and Pavard.
Money explains why they are always in the mix for the title and why they win 2 out of 3 years.
Money explains why they are always in the mix for the title and why they win 2 out of 3 years. But it does not explain why they won soon nine titles in a row. And will maybe beat the 81 points record Dortmund had in 2011/12 for the 7th or 8th time...
And I do not understand why Bayern is always picked out like they would be the only one that purchases players in the Bundesliga - especially when it is players that before have played Bundesliga 2 like Kimmich and Pavard.
And on the other side that would just put way too many "happy to be here" clubs in the Bundesliga. Imagine Bochum, Fürth, Kiel, Bielefeld, Mainz, Augsburg, Freiburg and Union all in the Bundesliga at the same time...that's half the league. They've all worked hard to get there but the league would be less attractive with so many underdog teams around.
Can you suggest some examples of reforms you would deem necessary or helpful?The league is in desperate need for reforms.
Can you suggest some examples of reforms you would deem necessary or helpful?
No I can't.
How would you determine the salary cap? Exclude in the sense of don't grant them a license? Or that they can stay exceptions?Introduce a salary and transfer cap. 50+1 without exceptions, exclude Wolfsburg, Hoffenheim, Leipzig and Leverkusen. Easy reform, thank me later.
First thing would have to be decided by UEFA (no idea, maybe 3x current mean salary of the top 4 leagues). Yeah, don`t grant them a license. Maybe allow Leverkusen to change their model and stay, I have a soft spot for them.How would you determine the salary cap? Exclude in the sense of don't grant them a license? Or that they can stay exceptions?
You would envisage a salary cap only if it's UEFA-wide? Or would you say DFL should enact one alone if must be?First thing would have to be decided by UEFA (no idea, maybe 3x current mean salary of the top 4 leagues). Yeah, don`t grant them a license. Maybe allow Leverkusen to change their model and stay, I have a soft spot for them.
You already mentioned 50+1. And it's worth mentioning regarding Bayern.
The one and only reform I want to see is to stop extending the solidarity principle of TV money distribution to plastic clubs, stop this situation where they use their bonus cash to act as a top four gate keeper. Maybe ban Horst Heldt from professional football for good measure.
Yeah, but you're a conformist. I guess you'd be okay with seeing the same champion for the next 20 years. Did you also like the Super League? Because it essentially followed the same line of thought you just demonstrated.
Would you say that 50+1 is the main obstacle to a higher level of investment?Of course there are some approaches but I don't think I really possess the necessary background knowledge to judge what's really promising.
In general I believe financial gaps of these magnitudes can only be overcome by external investments. In regards to football, investors have a very bad reputation but they don't have to be like the Glazers or the sheikhs. In other industries, investors ensure that a startup can compete with established industry players and accelerate innovation. Then again I believe you have to put some regulations at place to ensure that it doesn't drift towards into the extremes - but how so, no idea.
Another point is that IMO the Bundesliga is very amateurish in regards to marketing itself. My club is almost traditionally interested in lots of young players from relatively unknown leagues. But for almost every single one of them you can find compilations on YouTube. But good luck doing that for Bundesliga players. During the Neymar at Santos days millions of his highlight reels were uploaded to YouTube while it was very difficult to find any videos of Mario Götze featuring Bundesliga footage since they deleted every piece immediately. The league is slowly warming up to it and putting highlight content on social media but it's still light years behind every other league. Really German so to speak.
And I also believe this has to do with the level of professionalism. Many Bundesliga clubs still appoint former players without any business experiences. If you think about it, it's actually incredible that people whose qualifications wouldn't even be enough to get a senior level job at a random cooperation are suddenly heads of companies/clubs that generate millions of profits annually. That's also a side effect of 50 + 1, by the way.
Introduce a salary and transfer cap. 50+1 without exceptions, exclude Wolfsburg, Hoffenheim, Leipzig and Leverkusen. Easy reform, thank me later.
Of course there are some approaches but I don't think I really possess the necessary background knowledge to judge what's really promising.
In general I believe financial gaps of these magnitudes can only be overcome by external investments. In regards to football, investors have a very bad reputation but they don't have to be like the Glazers or the sheikhs. In other industries, investors ensure that a startup can compete with established industry players and accelerate innovation. Then again I believe you have to put some regulations at place to ensure that it doesn't drift towards into the extremes - but how so, no idea.
Another point is that IMO the Bundesliga is very amateurish in regards to marketing itself. My club is almost traditionally interested in lots of young players from relatively unknown leagues. But for almost every single one of them you can find compilations on YouTube. But good luck doing that for Bundesliga players. During the Neymar at Santos days millions of his highlight reels were uploaded to YouTube while it was very difficult to find any videos of Mario Götze featuring Bundesliga footage since they deleted every piece immediately. The league is slowly warming up to it and putting highlight content on social media but it's still light years behind every other league. Really German so to speak.
And I also believe this has to do with the level of professionalism. Many Bundesliga clubs still appoint former players without any business experiences. If you think about it, it's actually incredible that people whose qualifications wouldn't even be enough to get a senior level job at a random cooperation are suddenly heads of companies/clubs that generate millions of profits annually. That's also a side effect of 50 + 1, by the way.
Yes, bundesliga lacks professionalism in every aspect of the game, I totally agree. It's just the same with the rest of Germany and our society, right? I mean, the digital approaches of the bundesliga lag behind by maybe a decade.
I think it`s only doable if done UEFA-wide, so yes. There`s no way (and probably no point) that the DFL would introduce it if its not introduced in other leagues as well.You would envisage a salary cap only if it's UEFA-wide? Or would you say DFL should enact one alone if must be?
And does a salary cap mean a cap on an individual player's wage or on the wage budget of a team?
But what might be a solution instead, then? I mean, I agree with what's been said before, and in general, I don't think it's helpful to bridge the gap with Bayern by trying to bring more money into the BL. It's not like more money has been this awesome thing that made football more fun. But what good way does anybody see to bring other clubs close to Bayern's level of quality, and/or Bayern's level down a bit (insofar as that's desirable at all).People that think getting rid off 50+1 would solve anything are deluded.
In France Bordeaux now has to go into administration because their american investors just pulled out. There are also plenty other such stories in Spain, Italy, France and even England.
It seems people look at PSG, Chelsea and City and think those are normal "investors". Those won't happen in the Bundesliga due to various other factors and especially the english ones were only possible due to the extremely strong national money especially the huge TV income, not to mention Britain's (London's) role in the world of finances and how the rich and powerful are attracted by that. Those are things you can't replicate anywhere or at any time.
No investor is coming to Germany and will then close the gap to Bayern, that is just delunsional. What is actually gonna happen is they MIGHT invest in smaller/mid tier clubs and will displace clubs like Dortmund, Gladbach etc.
This has already happened to a certain extent thanks to Leverkusen, Hoffenheim, Wolfsburg and Dortmund.
And yes, the "traditional" clubs can and should have done a better job but that doesn't change the fact that investors make the job even harder and not really adding much value in regards to a league's attractiveness. To achieve that you have to spent insane money and no real "investor" is doing that. So in the end it's all about hitting the lottery and getting someone like Abramovich, the Qataris etc. and hope that the BL is attractive enough for their sportswashing...
I was going to say a more equal TV money distribution would be a start, and probably the easiest thing to implement.But what might be a solution instead, then? I mean, I agree with what's been said before, and in general, I don't think it's helpful to bridge the gap with Bayern by trying to bring more money into the BL. It's not like more money has been this awesome thing that made football more fun. But what good way does anybody see to bring other clubs close to Bayern's level of quality, and/or Bayern's level down a bit (insofar as that's desirable at all).
People that think getting rid off 50+1 would solve anything are deluded.
No investor is coming to Germany and will then close the gap to Bayern, that is just delunsional.
I was going to say a more equal TV money distribution would be a start, and probably the easiest thing to implement.
Last season, Bayern got three times what the lowest team got, 105m € to 34m €. What about changing it to more like, say, 90m to 50m?
I'd be all for that.
That's to a good part BS though. The league wouldn't need to listen to that.As far as I know a signficant amount of that sum is because of Bayern playing in European competitions though. They "only" got 70m € for domestic tv rights which is just 20m € more than a team like Freiburg. So I'm not sure if it's even possible to distribute the Champions League media money as well.
And of course Bayern always have the same answer: if you give us less money then we'll do worse in European competitions so less people will be interested in the Bundesliga and media rights will be sold for less money. It's a classic vicious cycle...maybe teams should try to earn more in international competitions to lessen the difference (which is easier said than done).
I don't really understand that stance since Leipzig is a textbook example of what you can achieve when you don't care about 50+1. Sure they're not on Bayern's level yet but they've arguably been better than any other German team in the past 2 years.
If Bayern had to deal with 5 Leipzig-type clubs + Dortmund then they'd definitely have a harder time winning every year.
Yes, opening the doors to investors can go terribly wrong but if it's done right then the odds of building a competitive team from scratch are much higher.
Leipzig will never grow.
Yeah, that might be true. However that's partly due to Red Bull's business model. They seem mostly interested in promoting a young team that plays fast and aggressive football.
That doesn't mean that there aren't investors out there who'd have bigger plans. And I'm not denying that it would still be incredibly difficult to catch up to Bayern but wouldn't the odds be much higher than for an organically grown club?
Or let me put it that way: 50+1 falls, freshly promoted Schalke 04 are immediately taken over by the same Qatari who own PSG. Would you bet against them building a team that rivals Bayern?
As far as I know a signficant amount of that sum is because of Bayern playing in European competitions though. They "only" got 70m € for domestic tv rights which is just 20m € more than a team like Freiburg. So I'm not sure if it's even possible to distribute the Champions League media money as well.
And of course Bayern always have the same answer: if you give us less money then we'll do worse in European competitions so less people will be interested in the Bundesliga and media rights will be sold for less money. It's a classic vicious cycle...maybe teams should try to earn more in international competitions to lessen the difference (which is easier said than done).
Given how everything else appears to.not actually work, I get the impression that's the real answer here: for the clubs with serious financial potential to finally (finally! FINALLY!) get their act together and become permanent presences at the top. But BVB messed up another season, Schalke is going down, and HSV is very far off anything. I suppose there are other such clubs as well, but barring a serious implosion at Bayern, I guess the gap isn't going to close any time soon.The league needs it's traditionally big clubs to consistently make top four, but that's ten times harder with these plastic clubs at the top.
That's the real problem - Wolfsburg is only able to "block" a CL place for BVB, because they are just doing a very good job with far less financial power than Dortmund has. Of the 50+1 only Leipzig have exceptional high budgets that should guarantee them the CL, Wolfsburg is just a midtable club in that regard.Given how everything else appears to.not actually work, I get the impression that's the real answer here: for the clubs with serious financial potential to finally (finally! FINALLY!) get their act together and become permanent presences at the top. But BVB messed up another season
Who's to say RB Leipzig won't grow? I get that there might not be much incentive for Red Bull to invest more beyond the ambition of having them play in the Champions League, but I think that ignores other aspects. Leipzig isn't Wolfsburg or Leverkusen in terms of city or location. It's a much larger, fast growing city in an area devoid of many alternatives in terms of football clubs. Their "history" might make them unpopular to traditional football fans, but those already support other clubs anyway. If anything I think most somewhat comparable examples of clubs, with controversial owners, show that after a while it just becomes normal. I've heard or read somewhere that Leipzig heavily promotes their club among school aged children for instance. Looking at Leipzig's attendance figures, they're close to full capacity on average, so clearly there's interest in the area. Maybe in a few years they might even have a proper league rivalry, if Dynamo Dresden gets promoted. Going by Dynamo's support, those matches could be quite a spectacle and would go a long way in legitimising them as a club.
Besides, Red Bull isn't really comparable to any owner. They've created a niche for themselves in their sports and event sponsoring, that is a pillar for them as a brand. I actually think Leipzig have a lot of potential to grow as a club, and while that's still very reliant on Red Bull's budget, that might not be the case for ever. I guess that would depend on whether RedBull would allow other sponsors. So yeah there might be a glass ceiling, but I don't think it's equivalent to VW or Bayer, who maybe have to support their teams because they're sort of stuck with them but don't really care one way or another.
That's the real problem - Wolfsburg is only able to "block" a CL place for BVB, because they are just doing a very good job with far less financial power than Dortmund has. Of the 50+1 only Leipzig have exceptional high budgets that should guarantee them the CL, Wolfsburg is just a midtable club in that regard.
And I agree that Leipzig has a higher ceiling to grow than Wolfsburg, Leverkusen or Hoffenheim - those are coming from areas with traditional and successful big clubs near them. Leipzig is the only club representing east Germany in the Bundesliga, there is no choice if you want to follow local/regional Bundesliga football.
Given how everything else appears to.not actually work, I get the impression that's the real answer here: for the clubs with serious financial potential to finally (finally! FINALLY!) get their act together and become permanent presences at the top. But BVB messed up another season, Schalke is going down, and HSV is very far off anything. I suppose there are other such clubs as well, but barring a serious implosion at Bayern, I guess the gap isn't going to close any time soon.
East German fans tend to be rather locally-conscious and rivality-proud though. I can't imagine any Dynamo Dresden fan (with Dresden being the second biggest city) would follow RB just because they're also East German.. a certain bloody severed bull's head thrown onto the pitch comes to mind.And I agree that Leipzig has a higher ceiling to grow than Wolfsburg, Leverkusen or Hoffenheim - those are coming from areas with traditional and successful big clubs near them. Leipzig is the only club representing east Germany in the Bundesliga, there is no choice if you want to follow local/regional Bundesliga football.
Would you say that 50+1 is the main obstacle to a higher level of investment?
I ask because, of course, 50+1 doesn't limit outside investment at all, it "only" limits the voting power of outside investment.
You speak of "some regulations" that would need to be put in place in the absence of 50+1. well, that's where the proverbial dog is buried isn't it.
How exactly do you regulate in a way to maximize the benefits while minimizing the downsides, and how far away from 50+1 do you land with that in mind?
I'll hazard the guess that - not so far. But I'm not meaning to shut down debate or not have an open mind.
As for the rest, these are good points, but -- that people need to do better is not a reform one can implement.
About the last point, are you sure? How would removing 50+1 create a new class of potential club officials that are economic AND footballing experts?
And where are those now, if they exist?
Wouldn't it be rather that Klinsmann, Völler, Heldt, Schmadtke and Marcel Jansen just have a lot more money to waste, for a short while, before the whole thing collapses?
Or that the clubs have their German Ed Woodwards to deal with the money?
