German Football 20/21

[JSP]

It's an image they like to cultivate about themselves.

In reality, the way they pursued promotion, and the economic/prices/sponsoring policy that came with it showed them to be rather gentrified.
It's an East Berlin club, the East Berlin club that wasn't favoured, and was bullied, by the state no less, which is why they have the image of being more in tune with the little man, yet honestly the fan base of Hertha sure seems much more Lumpenproletariat to me

But they also sing about the "hills and valleys" of their Berlin borough Köpenick in one of their favourite chants, when it's really just all flat, so maybe that tells something about their perception of self.

That's just another myth tbh.
I fully agree on your judgement re. Hertha´s "Lumpenproletariat" fan base. Union´s following these days (to a large part anyway) is made up of people who moved to Berlin after the fall of the wall and are rather well off, who fell for the romantic narrative of FCU being that wonderful club that was once deprived and who's fan base was a hub of the political opposition against the regime, and that the club was later built by its supporters etc.pp.. Most of which is, as stated before, a complete and utter myth, and simply nonsense (as is the general narrative about their traditional rivals Dynamo). Union now are the hipster´s choice, Berlin's version of St. Pauli (without the political connotations). That said, a lot of what they achieved in recent years is the result of hard work and excellent PR, which has to be respected (talking of admiration would take it a tad too far in my case ).

PS: You earlier quoted a(n) (in)famous Dynamo chant from the 1980s (Bananen und Apfelsinen), how come?

 

[roonster09]

 

[Zehner]

It's an entirely different dynamic. Changing coaches can reset a team's momentum. What were new solutions back then would be more of the same now.



If you think Bosz's football has not been satisfactory for the last 18 months, so unrelated to the current crisis and changes it has brought on, then that's a different topic entirely. Though my impression wasn't that bad, given the squad he had to work with.
And in general it's always hard to assess players who aren't playing a lot. As an attacking player it's always easier if you come on after an hour, the opposition begins to tire and your own team has to take a lot more risks in attack if they need a goal. And when things aren't going well the less you play the higher your stock is with the fans.

I think this is the issue. His beginning was exceptional and afterwards, there were lots of excuses. The playing style got more pragmatic but we didn't replace Brandt so it could be expected that we'd sooner or later see the same style again. Meanwhile Bosz made due with the players he had at his disposal and since they weren't as tidy and subtle in tight spaces as Brandt, it was less easy on the eye but still effective. But with the latest impressions, I began to ask myself whether what we saw in the first six months was Bosz' brand of football or what we've witnessed in the 18 months since that. And as much as I like to think the first assumption is correct, the evidence to the contrary got more and more clear in the last few months. I enjoy possession style but you need to pair it with attacking patterns and great movement in the final third. At this point I have my doubts if Bosz sees it correctly. Some coaches of this brand of football see their task in getting the ball to the final third and then leave it to the players to get it into the net and I fear that was the case with us, too. The attacking style seems to be dictated by the personnel and not by the coach. But those are only guesses, it's incredibly difficult to judge from outside. If he argued that he wanted to get back to where we started and the crossing excesses are only a means to an end in a exhausting season, I'd be fine with that and willing to continue with him. But if what he claimed in his interviews (we created many chances but they didn't go in) is what he truly believes and thinks this is the be all end all attacking pattern, then he has to go, IMO.

Anyway, news are doing the rounds that he's sacked and Hannes Wolf takes over until season's end with Hermann as his right hand. Let's see how this turns out and who we go for in the summer. I'm not overly optimistic right now for the next few seasons. The coach is the most important position in the club and I don't think we can land someone like Rangnick or are brave enough for a solution like Ole Werner or something like that. He'd actually be my favorite since he plays the same brand of football, too.

 

[do.ob]

The moment they stop having moles at literally every club.

For every solid piece of reporting they have several cases where they make stuff up, sell their reasonable guesses as facts or like this one: where they probably hear Alonso is a hot candidate and go full on "TRUE

".. if Gladbach sign him they credit themselves with breaking it first, if they don't everyone forgets the liberal use of "TRUE

[tm]". Even for Munich, good old "CFBayern" had some oopsie-moments, like when he told his followers that Javi Martinez had been released in the summer.

 

[Hansi Fick]

Wow, ok..
There was so much promise attached to Wolf when he was BVB 2nd team coach, but as far as I can see his managerial stints so far haven't turned out especially well?

 

[stefan92]

Wow, ok..
There was so much promised attached to Wolf when he was BVB 2nd team coach, but as far as I can see his managerial stints so far haven't turned out especially well?

But also not that bad - Stuttgart was really ok I think (he got them back to the first Bundesliga and started quite ok there, just had to go after a bad run). He failed to do the same with Hamburg, but I don't think any coach should seen as a failure just because they could not win there - that club is just so much chaos, anyone can fail there and many did (a bit like Schalke now).

 

[Hansi Fick]

But also not that bad - Stuttgart was really ok I think (he got them back to the first Bundesliga and started quite ok there, just had to go after a bad run). He failed to do the same with Hamburg, but I don't think any coach should seen as a failure just because they could not win there - that club is just so much chaos, anyone can fail there and many did (a bit like Schalke now).

You're right. He's also still very young.
I just found it odd how readily Stuttgart got rid of him. Pure speculation, but I have the feeling he's got a problem providing long term spark to his team.
Does anyone have any insight into his time in Belgium? Surely he was the one who signed Niklas Dorsch to Genk? Now it all makes sense.

 

[do.ob]

I think this is the issue. His beginning was exceptional and afterwards, there were lots of excuses. The playing style got more pragmatic but we didn't replace Brandt so it could be expected that we'd sooner or later see the same style again. Meanwhile Bosz made due with the players he had at his disposal and since they weren't as tidy and subtle in tight spaces as Brandt, it was less easy on the eye but still effective. But with the latest impressions, I began to ask myself whether what we saw in the first six months was Bosz' brand of football or what we've witnessed in the 18 months since that. And as much as I like to think the first assumption is correct, the evidence to the contrary got more and more clear in the last few months. I enjoy possession style but you need to pair it with attacking patterns and great movement in the final third. At this point I have my doubts if Bosz sees it correctly. Some coaches of this brand of football see their task in getting the ball to the final third and then leave it to the players to get it into the net and I fear that was the case with us, too. The attacking style seems to be dictated by the personnel and not by the coach. But those are only guesses, it's incredibly difficult to judge from outside. If he argued that he wanted to get back to where we started and the crossing excesses are only a means to an end in a exhausting season, I'd be fine with that and willing to continue with him. But if what he claimed in his interviews (we created many chances but they didn't go in) is what he truly believes and thinks this is the be all end all attacking pattern, then he has to go, IMO.

Anyway, news are doing the rounds that he's sacked and Hannes Wolf takes over until season's end with Hermann as his right hand. Let's see how this turns out and who we go for in the summer. I'm not overly optimistic right now for the next few seasons. The coach is the most important position in the club and I don't think we can land someone like Rangnick or are brave enough for a solution like Ole Werner or something like that. He'd actually be my favorite since he plays the same brand of football, too.

I first read about Bosz when the tactic nerds were intrigued with his Vitesse side, at Ajax he made an EL final, at Dortmund he had a run of incredible run of dominance before things went sour and at Leverkusen, relatively, speaking it was the same until Brandt was sold. It's of course to question how successful he is at improvising and moderating such a crisis (since this is now the second time things just spiraled out of control for him), but I wouldn't define his overall approach by what happened this season. This Leverkusen squad isn't build for possession football anymore and the next coach will probably revert to some typical transition centered approach.

 

[stefan92]

I just found it odd how readily Stuttgart got rid of him. Pure speculation, but I have the feeling he's got a problem providing long term spark to his team.

At least in that situation I think you are right - there were even reports that Wolf himself admitted to Stuttgarts DoF Michael Reschke that he was not sure if he can reach his team. He made some statements along the line of "When you try everything and this is the result you have to admit you failed".

So it was not so much the case of Stuttgart letting him go readily but more of having no other choice when Wolf admitted he could not do it. Which is also an odd situation, you don't usually see coaches do that and I am not sure if this is a good thing that Wolf is able to reflect about himself and what he can do, or if it is bad that he was out of his depth in that situation.

In the end this feels like a mediocre signing for Leverkusen - he surely is not a bad coach but I am not convinced that he is the right one for a club that should have the ambition to play in the CL. They are far from that now and signing Wolf feels a bit like Leverkusens board is ok with being in that region of the league table where they are now.

 

[do.ob]

Wolf looked promising in Dortmund's youth setup, but his career in senior football has been a bit catastrophic. Like getting promoted coaching Stuttgart with Terodde is a bit like winning the league with Bayern. His first Bundesliga season ended in a total collapse halfway through and if my memory doesn't deceive me none other than Tayfun Korkut later got the squad within reach of the EL spots. At Hamburg he had a pretty good squad on paper and ended the season in a total collapse again. At Genk he is among the very worst coaches in their history in terms of ppg. At this point I don't think he has any business coaching a first division club.

On the other hand finding a good coach right now isn't easy and Wolf seems to be a charismatic guy, so if Leverkusen just sign him as a short term fix band-aid and hire someone else for next season then that may be reasonable under the circumstances, but if they give him a longer contract, then it looks like full on Banter04.

 

[Hansi Fick]

PS: You earlier quoted a(n) (in)famous Dynamo chant from the 1980s (Bananen und Apfelsinen), how come?

Been living in Berlin for a long long time, and also a friend of mine dabbles in football history and is somewhat of a BFC supporter. Even though he has no face tattoo. I've attended quite a few games of yours over the years, Berlinpokal, Regionalliga, the rare DFB-Pokal game. Maybe once or twice a year. Usually on the opposing side though as I occasionally like to visit games of my local BAK, like last fall when fans were briefly allowed in and you unfortunately thrashed us in the Poststadion. Usually you guys chant towards the BAK, "in Berlin, kennt euch keine Sau", and it's hard to deny that, just as it's hard to deny how funny the chants tend to be, like the one I cited.

 

[Zehner]

I first read about Bosz when the tactic nerds were intrigued with his Vitesse side, at Ajax he made an EL final, at Dortmund he had a run of incredible run of dominance before things went sour and at Leverkusen, relatively, speaking it was the same until Brandt was sold. It's of course to question how successful he is at improvising and moderating such a crisis (since this is now the second time things just spiraled out of control for him), but I wouldn't define his overall approach by what happened this season. This Leverkusen squad isn't build for possession football anymore and the next coach will probably revert to some typical transition centered approach.

I don't know, it's hard to judge. All I know is he's had four or five weeks without cup competitions, full training weeks and it actually got worse. At this point I'm not convinced anymore that Bosz isn't one of those coaches for whom possession is the objective not the means to an end.

Wolf looked promising in Dortmund's youth setup, but his career in senior football has been a bit catastrophic. Like getting promoted coaching Stuttgart with Terodde is a bit like winning the league with Bayern. His first Bundesliga season ended in a total collapse halfway through and if my memory doesn't deceive me none other than Tayfun Korkut later got the squad within reach of the EL spots. At Hamburg he had a pretty good squad on paper and ended the season in a total collapse again. At Genk he is among the very worst coaches in their history in terms of ppg. At this point I don't think he has any business coaching a first division club.

On the other hand finding a good coach right now isn't easy and Wolf seems to be a charismatic guy, so if Leverkusen just sign him as a short term fix band-aid and hire someone else for next season then that may be reasonable under the circumstances, but if they give him a longer contract, then it looks like full on Banter04.

On transfermarkt sombody wrote that the contract would automatically get extended for one year if Wolf achieves EL ranks. That makes my stomach ache.

 

[do.ob]

On transfermarkt sombody wrote that the contract would automatically get extended for one year if Wolf achieves EL ranks. That makes my stomach ache.

Banter04 Leverkusen it is

 

[Zehner]

Banter04 Leverkusen it is

Maybe it's 4d chess by Völler. This way, if we miss out on the EL, at least we have something to look forward to. Brillant management

 

[Hansi Fick]

Oh, he's coming in now until summer? Ok I completely misread that tweet, somehow read it as he's replacing Bosz in summer. That makes much more sense.

 

[do.ob]

https://www.kicker.de/gladbach-und-die-trainersuche-xabi-alonso-wird-s-nicht-800494/artikel

Kicker report that Bild's reports were FALSE X and Xabi Alonso is in fact not coming to Gladbach.

 

[Hansi Fick]

Falk embarrassing himself once again.

 

[uamini]

That's just another myth tbh.
I fully agree on your judgement re. Hertha´s "Lumpenproletariat" fan base. Union´s following these days (to a large part anyway) is made up of people who moved to Berlin after the fall of the wall and are rather well off, who fell for the romantic narrative of FCU being that wonderful club that was once deprived and who's fan base was a hub of the political opposition against the regime, and that the club was later built by its supporters etc.pp.. Most of which is, as stated before, a complete and utter myth, and simply nonsense (as is the general narrative about their traditional rivals Dynamo). Union now are the hipster´s choice, Berlin's version of St. Pauli (without the political connotations). That said, a lot of what they achieved in recent years is the result of hard work and excellent PR, which has to be respected (talking of admiration would take it a tad too far in my case ).

Yeah, that's how I always describe them, St. Pauli without the political stance.
I'm equally annoyed and impressed at how no troubling news seem to diminish their brand, even though they've had quite a few missteps over the past few years. But no matter if it's a gentrifying shirt sponsor, a president with a Stasi past, a tone-deaf response to rising covid cases or ridiculous examples of Ostalgie - their narrative as the most fun Berlin club is never questioned.

 

[do.ob]

Part of it is people welcoming the only East German club in Bundesliga for ages. And other Eastern clubs like Dresden, BFC, Cottbus, Aue, Rostock and Chemnitz have, in a lot of people's perception at least, trouble with any combination of financial stability, hooligans or outright neo Nazis.
What people remember about Union is fans helping to build their stadium and Nina Hagen. Hertha being what they are is also great for Union's marketing.

 

[Zehner]

Banter04 Leverkusen it is

So Leverkusen and the DFB have claimed that Wolf shall return to coaching the German U18 at the end of the season. Seems like the claims of an automatic extension if the EL is achieved are nonsense.

Now let's see how his tenure here turns out.

 

[1950]

Falk embarrassing himself once again.

TRUE

 

[do.ob]

So Leverkusen and the DFB have claimed that Wolf shall return to coaching the German U18 at the end of the season. Seems like the claims of an automatic extension if the EL is achieved are nonsense.

Now let's see how his tenure here turns out.

Well the status quo is that his contract with Leverkusen runs out at the end of the season and the DFB would like him to coach their youth team then, so that's how they communicate it ("stood now", as Falk would eloquently put it). It's a very comfortable safety net for Wolf. But there is no way the DFB would block a youth coach taking over a professional team, let alone a club like Leverkusen and there is no way that Wolf would sign up as a youth coach without the option to take up a good offer from a senior club if it comes along.

"nothing is ruled out, of course" - Rudi Völler
https://www.kicker.de/dfb-wolf-und-hermann-kehren-im-sommer-zurueck-800501/artikel


https://www.kicker.de/schalke-schroeder-steht-nicht-zur-verfuegung-800524/artikel

Apparently Schalke's next candidate - Rouven Schröder, recently sacked by Mainz - has turned them down as well. At this point it might be best to save themselves further embarassment and some 7th choice candidate and just promote someone from within.

 

[Zehner]

Well the status quo is that his contract with Leverkusen runs out at the end of the season and the DFB would like him to coach their youth team then, so that's how they communicate it ("stood now", as Falk would eloquently put it). It's a very comfortable safety net for Wolf. But there is no way the DFB would block a youth coach taking over a professional team, let alone a club like Leverkusen and there is no way that Wolf would sign up as a youth coach without the option to take up a good offer from a senior club if it comes along.

"nothing is ruled out, of course" - Rudi Völler
https://www.kicker.de/dfb-wolf-und-hermann-kehren-im-sommer-zurueck-800501/artikel


https://www.kicker.de/schalke-schroeder-steht-nicht-zur-verfuegung-800524/artikel

Apparently Schalke's next candidate - Rouven Schröder, recently sacked by Mainz - has turned them down as well. At this point it might be best to save themselves further embarassment and some 7th choice candidate and just promote someone from within.

Of course there's the possibility if he's doing particularly fine. But there's no guarantee for achieving something that should be the minimum objective with this squad (holding the current position in the table). I guess if he gets us into the CL or at least misses out narrowly while having us perform very well, he'll get the job but that's a long, long way in our current form.


And Schalke is a joke, of course. I've written them off after they neglected Rangnick to be honest. I'd take him in a heartbeat and happily make room for him if he demands more authority than that of a regular coach. Yet the people who got Schalke in it's current position don't even want him in spite of their situation. They really deserve what's coming to them. I'd be fuming as a fan.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

Leverkusen's form really dipped since the turn of the year, plus the defeats in the Europa League as well as losing to Rot-Weiss Essen in the Cup really didn't help. Wonder if Leverkusen will be interested in Ralf Ragnick.
Also wonder what the future holds for Bosz

 

[Piratesoup]

For every solid piece of reporting they have several cases where they make stuff up, sell their reasonable guesses as facts or like this one: where they probably hear Alonso is a hot candidate and go full on "TRUE

".. if Gladbach sign him they credit themselves with breaking it first, if they don't everyone forgets the liberal use of "TRUE

[tm]". Even for Munich, good old "CFBayern" had some oopsie-moments, like when he told his followers that Javi Martinez had been released in the summer.

I can tell you from experience that they don't make stuff up. Sometimes things change, sometimes a mole is not as well informed as he thought, but they never just make things up.

 

[do.ob]

Leverkusen's form really dipped since the turn of the year, plus the defeats in the Europa League as well as losing to Rot-Weiss Essen in the Cup really didn't help. Wonder if Leverkusen will be interested in Ralf Ragnick.
Also wonder what the future holds for Bosz

Probably something back home?! Maybe Hoffenheim, if they sack young Hoeneß at the end of the season. I don't think his reputation is ruined here, but his name has probably lost it's shine for now.

I can tell you from experience that they don't make stuff up. Sometimes things change, sometimes a mole is not as well informed as he thought, but they never just make things up.

Yeah.. I guess sometimes you just get unlucky. Strange though, that this doesn't happen nearly as often to a paper like Kicker.

 

[Piratesoup]

Yeah.. I guess sometimes you just get unlucky. Strange though, that this doesn't happen nearly as often to a paper like Kicker.

I think it's because Bild is the yellowest press imaginable. They don't take the time to wait and see how things pan out, not even a couple of hours, because they want to break news as fast as possible. So they'll exploit and inflate any morsel of truth or information the moment they get it. The reason it's not blatant false news is that, as I said, there's always an actual inside source behind these rumors.

 

[JSP]

Yeah, that's how I always describe them, St. Pauli without the political stance.
I'm equally annoyed and impressed at how no troubling news seem to diminish their brand, even though they've had quite a few missteps over the past few years. But no matter if it's a gentrifying shirt sponsor, a president with a Stasi past, a tone-deaf response to rising covid cases or ridiculous examples of Ostalgie - their narrative as the most fun Berlin club is never questioned.

Well, Zingler served 3 years in the Wachregiment Feliks Dzierzynski. Although they were technically part of MfS I wouldn't really class that as "a Stasi past". What is annoying, though, is the double standards Union apply re. Stasi connections, especially when it comes to their local rivals BFC.
As much as it pains me having to admit it, they are undoubtedly the currently most fun to watch club in Berlin, with the best ground and the best atmosphere.

 

[JSP]

Been living in Berlin for a long long time, and also a friend of mine dabbles in football history and is somewhat of a BFC supporter. Even though he has no face tattoo. I've attended quite a few games of yours over the years, Berlinpokal, Regionalliga, the rare DFB-Pokal game. Maybe once or twice a year. Usually on the opposing side though as I occasionally like to visit games of my local BAK, like last fall when fans were briefly allowed in and you unfortunately thrashed us in the Poststadion. Usually you guys chant towards the BAK, "in Berlin, kennt euch keine Sau", and it's hard to deny that, just as it's hard to deny how funny the chants tend to be, like the one I cited.

I'd be intrigued to know where you heard it as it's a proper 1980s chant that BFC fans directed at opponents from regions of the GDR where exotic fruits (a.k.a Südfrüchte) like bananas and oranges were hard to come by (often only on sale once or twice a year). Which was basically everywhere outside (East) Berlin.

 

[Hansi Fick]

I'd be intrigued to know where you heard it as it's a proper 1980s chant that BFC fans directed at opponents from regions of the GDR where exotic fruits (a.k.a Südfrüchte) like bananas and oranges were hard to come by (often only on sale once or twice a year). Which was basically everywhere outside (East) Berlin.

That one I didn't hear chanted, but was told about. Before my time.

 

[do.ob]

Ginter at LB for the Höwedes 2014 tactical masterclass vibes.

Not to mention Dortmund's fourth choice CB starting while their first choice is left at home.

 

[Zehner]

Ginter at LB for the Höwedes 2014 tactical masterclass vibes.

Not to mention Dortmund's fourth choice CB starting while their first choice is left at home.

But in general a nice formation. Hope the wingers start inverted

 

[do.ob]

But in general a nice formation. Hope the wingers start inverted

Yes. I hope so, too. Creating space for Ginter will be key.

 

[Zehner]

Kimmich channeling his inner Pirlo today. Best player on the pitch

 

[hasanejaz88]

Those two passes from Kimmich to create the first two goals, just brilliant. What a great all round midfielder he is, Goretzka proving his goal scoring ability as well again.

 

[Acrobat7]

But in general a nice formation. Hope the wingers start inverted

It’s Can at LB. There is no need for an inverted winger since no one will overlap.

 

[do.ob]

I'd like to meet their PR guy. Rummenigge must be fuming?

 

[Lagger]

https://www.kicker.de/gladbach-und-die-trainersuche-xabi-alonso-wird-s-nicht-800494/artikel

Kicker report that Bild's reports were FALSE X and Xabi Alonso is in fact not coming to Gladbach.

What a shocker... Falk dropping all kinds of information. Auch ein blindes Huhn...

In other news, don't we love these international breaks? Lewa's injury coming at the worst time... Bayern playing the 2nd in the league and PSG this week.

 

[Ludens the Red]

What a shocker... Falk dropping all kinds of information. Auch ein blindes Huhn...

In other news, don't we love these international breaks? Lewa's injury coming at the worst time... Bayern playing the 2nd in the league and PSG this week.

How bad is it? I’m reading ten days but then reading knee ligaments.

 

[Lagger]

How bad is it? I’m reading ten days but then reading knee ligaments.

We're hearing all kinds of conflicting information, but so far most sources seem to agree on 5-10 days. We'll know for sure once the Bayern docs had a look at it.

It's a bummer, cos he has an honest shot at breaking Müller's eternal record.