German Football 20/21

[Botim]

Not sure this is the right thread for it, but the public's patience must have run out with Löw now? He was sort of papering over the cracks with his record in qualifiers, but this kind of loss surely can't be accepted so close to the Euros? Is there any real chance he get's the sack? It seems to me, it's now or never. A new coach still has a good two months to get things right before the EC in june.

 

[Zehner]

People should clam down. That wasn't a bad game, only the finishing was off. The second Macedonia goal was very lucky. Give the man a break, he'll be gone after the next tournament anyway and the recent developments looked positive.

Oh and by the way, feck Bild

 

[do.ob]

It's not exactly like this was one unlucky game in a see of success. And you have Can playing CB and making mistakes, while Hummels/Boateng sit at home and Werner showcasing his atrocious form and others missing chances, while Müller sits at home. Does anyone believe Löw will win the Euros? This is just about giving him the chance to leave with a bit dignity.

 

[NoLogo]

I really like what the team is doing. We can't officially boycott the WC so the team is simply going to not qualify, brilliant move by Jogi and his boys.

 

[Zehner]

It's not exactly like this was one unlucky game in a see of success. And you have Can playing CB and making mistakes, while Hummels/Boateng sit at home and Werner showcasing his atrocious form and others missing chances, while Müller sits at home. Does anyone believe Löw will win the Euros? This is just about giving him the chance to leave with a bit dignity.

Werner came in as a sub. What is he supposed to do? You can't throw a player immediately under the bus once his form starts taking a dip. In general, I'm happy with his team selection in the last three games. Only thing that really stands out negatively is the chance conversion.

At this point, Löw would receive citicism no matter what he did anyway. He could bring back Hummels, yes, but he's already said that they'll see how these three games turn out before making a decision. Rüdiger might very well be the best German CB right now anyway. And Hummels wasn't particularly great this season either. Wonder how the reactions might look like if Löw plays Hummels and they concede anyway, maybe even while Hummels has a bad day. I also don't really see how Müller fits in and who should be benched for him. If you bench Havertz, you have nobody who can play the striker role, so Müller in the starting line up would probably mean playing an out of form Werner upfront - a position that he's not particularly good at to begin with.

Löw is seeing out the Euros now and he's making room after it. That's fine, let's at least give him a chance to do what he thinks is the best approach instead of being all over him all the time.

 

[RashyForPM]

Werner came in as a sub. What is he supposed to do?

Score an open goal maybe?

 

[Zehner]

Score an open goal maybe?

Well, yes, absolutely But actually I was referring to Löw. What I meant was: He already took Werner out of the starting eleven but he can't just throw him out of the team when he goes through a rough patch of form. That would be horrible from a man management perspective. Phrased that a bit misleading I guess.

 

[do.ob]

Löw is seeing out the Euros now and he's making room after it. That's fine, let's at least give him a chance to do what he thinks is the best approach instead of being all over him all the time.

Why is it fine? Any other coach would have stepped down after the debacle in 2018 or otherwise got fired.
He got spared and was allowed to redeem himself. That ended in another fiasco against France and the Dutch. Another low point where he should have stepped down.
Redemption 2.0 culminated in getting beaten by Spain 0:6. Another low point Where he should have stepped down.
Now we are at project redemption 3.0, all new, all better. Oh wait, another historic loss against Northern Macedonia.
I'm sure though the fourth iteration will finally deliver.

Löw has become the equivalent of Lukas Podolski. Just barely keeping his head above water in quasi-friendlies until some real opposition comes along and he gets exposed.
His team selection consisted of not picking Neuhaus over world class midfielders and not picking a painfully out of form Werner.
Oh and of course some random setups at the back that should never see the light of day at a tournament and already cost him against Goran Pandev. Thomas Doll could have done the same. That doesn't prove he should stay on.

 

[Lagger]

People should clam down. That wasn't a bad game, only the finishing was off. The second Macedonia goal was very lucky. Give the man a break, he'll be gone after the next tournament anyway and the recent developments looked positive.

Oh and by the way, feck Bild

I used to defend Löw, but at some point you have to stop the loyalty to a person and think pragmatically. What is worse, continuing with a coach that is now on the road to making negative records over and over again, or disrupting the "flow" (as if they had any) and start with a new coach? There is nothing gained by holding on too long, we should cut him now and replace him with... literally anyone else. He is a risk factor for our qualification. This game, as unlucky as it was, was not an outlier anymore. This result should never have happened. I don't care how the game looks, the staple of a GOOD team is that these things don't happen. That's the whole point of being a good team. Anyone can be motivated and play the game of their life against Argentine in the final of a world cup, it's these games against the nobodies where you show if you're professional or not.

It's not just that we lost. It's that we didn't win 10-0 outright. That's the issue. If this had been a 1-1 or even 2-1 win in our favour, it'd still be light years away from what it should have been.

Pragmatism says he needs to go. Now. Today. No hate, no emotions, just replace him, thanks for all the fish, hope you enjoyed the trip, let's meet up again for a coffee, and see ya.

 

[hasanejaz88]

People should clam down. That wasn't a bad game, only the finishing was off. The second Macedonia goal was very lucky. Give the man a break, he'll be gone after the next tournament anyway and the recent developments looked positive.

Oh and by the way, feck Bild

The only goal we got was from a dive and Macedonia should've had a penalty of their own. A win for us would've been incredibly lucky and undeserved for Macedonia, who themselves had chances. "It wasn't a bad game" is a massive understatement of the tripe we put out yesterday, especially in the 2nd half.

Well, yes, absolutely But actually I was referring to Löw. What I meant was: He already took Werner out of the starting eleven but he can't just throw him out of the team when he goes through a rough patch of form. That would be horrible from a man management perspective. Phrased that a bit misleading I guess.

Brandt and Draxler be like "whaaaaat"

I would take an out of form Brandt and Draxler over Amin Younes every day of the week.

 

[Lagger]

I'd like to add that this just supports the theory that Flick was largely responsible for the WC title and Löw doesn't actually know what he's doing.

 

[Zehner]

Why is it fine? Any other coach would have stepped down after the debacle in 2018 or otherwise got fired.
He got spared and was allowed to redeem himself. That ended in another fiasco against France and the Dutch. Another low point where he should have stepped down.
Redemption 2.0 culminated in getting beaten by Spain 0:6. Another low point Where he should have stepped down.
Now we are at project redemption 3.0, all new, all better. Oh wait, another historic loss against Northern Macedonia.
I'm sure though the fourth iteration will finally deliver.

Löw has become the equivalent of Lukas Podolski. Just barely keeping his head above water in quasi-friendlies until some real opposition comes along and he gets exposed.
His team selection consisted of not picking Neuhaus over world class midfielders and not picking a painfully out of form Werner.
Oh and of course some random setups at the back that should never see the light of day at a tournament and already cost him against Goran Pandev.

Löw has an exceptional record, even by Germany standards. He's got the best points average of all German national coaches, even after the disappointing last years. Under him Germany played three ECs (one final, two semis) and three WCs (one win, one semi, one group stage exit). That equals five great results in six tournaments he played and it probably would have been even better if he didn't compete with the best national team to ever play the game. He was also responsible for lifting up the team after the dark ages in the early 00s as the quasi headcoach under Klinsmann. Spain aside, no team has had an even comparable record in the same time frame.

Now you probably want to point out that this isn't overly successful for German standards but I think this notion is bullshit. It's not like this is some birth right we have. You need to do a great job to be so successful in tournaments, like it or not. We just take it for granted and forget that during Löw's time as Germany's head coach many teams with better individual players went through much rougher times than we're currently experiencing. It's not self-evident that we reach a semi final at almost every tournament we play. So of course you don't fire a coach who worked successfully for 10 years after his first disappointing tournament if he doesn't want to go himself - especially not if he won the tournament before this one and won every single qualification match leading up to it. He deserved to get a second try.

Don't get me wrong, I'm also looking forward to the change we're about to see and think he should've resigned after 2018 for his own good. But he decided to go on and after 10 years of good work there are arguments on his side, even if most fans don't want to accept that. I also believe people may be in for a disappointment once he's gone. Löw did a much better job than people give him credit for and we first have to find a coach who's better than him and willing to do the job.

 

[Zehner]

The only goal we got was from a dive and Macedonia should've had a penalty of their own. A win for us would've been incredibly lucky and undeserved for Macedonia, who themselves had chances. "It wasn't a bad game" is a massive understatement of the tripe we put out yesterday, especially in the 2nd half.



Brandt and Draxler be like "whaaaaat"

I would take an out of form Brandt and Draxler over Amin Younes every day of the week.

Brandt is having his second atrocious season in a row. Löw kept nominating him although he had no right to be there. Same goes for Draxler, he was in the team for far too long despite being a bench player for Paris. Also, I think Younes currently plays much better than both of them. This is what I mean: Löw gets criticized either way.

And no, Macedonia didn't deserve a win, not even a draw. This may sound nice and self criticital but it's simply not true. Germany had more chances of a higher quality than Macedonia did and the eventual winning goal was very, very lucky. If you didn't know one team was Germany and the other Macedonia, or, in other words, had no expectations then you wouldn't claim that the winner was deserved. The winning goal alone was so, so lucky. They could attempt the exact same attack 20 times and it probably wouldn't lead to a single goal. Three lucky nutmegs and a deflection in the last four touches..

I know it's not the popular opinion right now but this wasn't a bad match.

 

[Hansi Fick]

I used to defend Löw, but at some point you have to stop the loyalty to a person and think pragmatically. What is worse, continuing with a coach that is now on the road to making negative records over and over again, or disrupting the "flow" (as if they had any) and start with a new coach? There is nothing gained by holding on too long, we should cut him now and replace him with... literally anyone else. He is a risk factor for our qualification. This game, as unlucky as it was, was not an outlier anymore. This result should never have happened. I don't care how the game looks, the staple of a GOOD team is that these things don't happen. That's the whole point of being a good team. Anyone can be motivated and play the game of their life against Argentine in the final of a world cup, it's these games against the nobodies where you show if you're professional or not.

It's not just that we lost. It's that we didn't win 10-0 outright. That's the issue. If this had been a 1-1 or even 2-1 win in our favour, it'd still be light years away from what it should have been.

Pragmatism says he needs to go. Now. Today. No hate, no emotions, just replace him, thanks for all the fish, hope you enjoyed the trip, let's meet up again for a coffee, and see ya.

Far be it from me to defend Löw, he should have been gone in 2018 at the latest. But what am I missing here? The world cup qualification resumes end of the year, doesn't it? And then, Löw will be gone anyway?
Besides of course the anewed luck of the draw presenting Germany with another easy quali group.

 

[Zehner]

I used to defend Löw, but at some point you have to stop the loyalty to a person and think pragmatically. What is worse, continuing with a coach that is now on the road to making negative records over and over again, or disrupting the "flow" (as if they had any) and start with a new coach? There is nothing gained by holding on too long, we should cut him now and replace him with... literally anyone else. He is a risk factor for our qualification. This game, as unlucky as it was, was not an outlier anymore. This result should never have happened. I don't care how the game looks, the staple of a GOOD team is that these things don't happen. That's the whole point of being a good team. Anyone can be motivated and play the game of their life against Argentine in the final of a world cup, it's these games against the nobodies where you show if you're professional or not.

It's not just that we lost. It's that we didn't win 10-0 outright. That's the issue. If this had been a 1-1 or even 2-1 win in our favour, it'd still be light years away from what it should have been.

Pragmatism says he needs to go. Now. Today. No hate, no emotions, just replace him, thanks for all the fish, hope you enjoyed the trip, let's meet up again for a coffee, and see ya.

I don't know, that's just a bit dramatic for me. First of all, Macedonia isn't San Marino, Lithuania or Luxemburg. They've got a few good players like Elmas and Bardhi and many decent ones who could play second or first division in Germany, England, Italy etc. Definitely a team that we should beat, no doubt, but they're definitely better than Iceland for example and just remember what they did against other big teams at the Euros. It's not uncommon for teams to slip in such a match, especially if it's in such a manner. So Macedonia is definitely not a team you have to beat 10:0.

Also, Löw is not to blame that players feck up in front of the goal. It's debatable to blame a coach for it in any circumstances but for the national team? Come on. At club level you could at least argue that he should train finishing but that's a silly point of criticism regarding a national coach. It's not his fault Gnabry hits a field goal, Havertz has a blackout, Werner can't hit the ball or Goretzka tests the woodwork. Instead Macedonia score out of nowhere and from then on it's a difficult game.

I think you folks will be in for a disappointment once Löw is gone. I hope not but it might be the case Germany fans are finally confronted with the irrationally high expectations they have.

 

[do.ob]

Löw has an exceptional record, even by Germany standards. He's got the best points average of all German national coaches, even after the disappointing last years. Under him Germany played three ECs (one final, two semis) and three WCs (one win, one semi, one group stage exit). That equals five great results in six tournaments he played and it probably would have been even better if he didn't compete with the best national team to ever play the game. He was also responsible for lifting up the team after the dark ages in the early 00s as the quasi headcoach under Klinsmann. Spain aside, no team has had an even comparable record in the same time frame.

Now you probably want to point out that this isn't overly successful for German standards but I think this notion is bullshit. It's not like this is some birth right we have. You need to do a great job to be so successful in tournaments, like it or not. We just take it for granted and forget that during Löw's time as Germany's head coach many teams with better individual players went through much rougher times than we're currently experiencing. It's not self-evident that we reach a semi final at almost every tournament we play. So of course you don't fire a coach who worked successfully for 10 years after his first disappointing tournament if he doesn't want to go himself - especially not if he won the tournament before this one and won every single qualification match leading up to it. He deserved to get a second try.

Don't get me wrong, I'm also looking forward to the change we're about to see and think he should've resigned after 2018 for his own good. But he decided to go on and after 10 years of good work there are arguments on his side, even if most fans don't want to accept that. I also believe people may be in for a disappointment once he's gone. Löw did a much better job than people give him credit for and we first have to find a coach who's better than him and willing to do the job.

You could make the same post about Mourinho. But no one cares what happened 5 years ago in football. The only thing that matters is what happens right now and that's a streak of unacceptable performances for three years going in Löw's case. Three whole years he had to build something and he's seemingly starting from scratch again during the tournament preparations. Which is also why there's absolutely no downside to sacking him now.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Brandt is having his second atrocious season in a row. Löw kept nominating him although he had no right to be there. Same goes for Draxler, he was in the team for far too long despite being a bench player for Paris. Also, I think Younes currently plays much better than both of them. This is what I mean: Löw gets criticized either way.

And no, Macedonia didn't deserve a win, not even a draw. This may sound nice and self criticital but it's simply not true. Germany had more chances of a higher quality than Macedonia did and the eventual winning goal was very, very lucky. If you didn't know one team was Germany and the other Macedonia, or, in other words, had no expectations then you wouldn't claim that the winner was deserved. The winning goal alone was so, so lucky. They could attempt the exact same attack 20 times and it probably wouldn't lead to a single goal. Three lucky nutmegs and a deflection in the last four touches..

I know it's not the popular opinion right now but this wasn't a bad match.

What? Brandt was pretty good last season by all accounts. You could say he was decent at worst but to say he was atrocious is laughable!

And no, no one would blame Low for playing Brandt and Draxler given the lack of quality in that position outside of Sane and Gnabry. What they would blame him for though is playing them for Muller, which is understandable.

It's an embarassment to the national team that someone like Younes is getting games. There have been plenty of players who have played for Germany but not turned out to be great players, like Schauldraff, Petersen, Wagner etc but atleast they were in the team during times when they were playing well domestically. Younes has had 3 goals and 2 assists this season and yet is deemed good enough to be in the national team over Draxler and Brandt who are still miles better players than him.

 

[Zehner]

You could make the same post about Mourinho. But no one cares what happened 5 years ago in football. The only thing that matters is what happens right now and that's a streak of unacceptable performances for three years going in Löw's case. Three whole years he had to build something and he's seemingly starting from scratch again during the tournament preparations. Which is also why there's absolutely no downside to sacking him now.

I think you're exaggerating a bit. The bad games occurred in (glorified) friendlies. I don't care about the nations league nor do I think the players do. He won 7 out of 8 EC qualification games in 2019 and now he's won 2 out of 3 WC qualifiers. To me those aren't unacceptable performances. And as I said, friendlies are entirely different stories. He uses them to experiment, many players aren't available or in energy saving mode when playing them. Especially when the club schedule is tight anyway.

Personally, I thought the last three games were a development into the right direction. They need to sort their finishing out but as I said you can't blame Löw for that. If I could choose freely, would I choose a different coach? Yes. But I do think the Löw criticism by now has developed it's own self sustaining dynamic. Moreover, I think the last three games pose a return to the roots, stylewise. I like that we're dominating possession again and that we abandoned the very vertical approach Löw seemed to foster as a reaction to public pressure after the group stage exit 2018. I'm fine with that right now.

Also, I think German fans are just a pain in the ass regarding the national team. Everybody is criticizing every single decision the coach makes. Leverkusen fans are already on the fence again because he played Musiala over Wirtz, Wolfsburg fans criticize him for nominating Arnold over Neuhaus and so forth. Back in the day people wanted to sack Löw because he picked Podolski over others for the spot as the fourth sub or whichever role in the hierarchy he had. IMO this criticism can't be taken seriously. People will always be upset with the Germany coach, no matter what and are totally ignorant of every argument brought up in his favor - e. g. that picking Podolski might make sense from a team chemistry stand point since the player who'd take his spot wouldn't play anyway either. The reactions are just way over the top.

 

[Zehner]

What? Brandt was pretty good last season by all accounts. You could say he was decent at worst but to say he was atrocious is laughable!

And no, no one would blame Low for playing Brandt and Draxler given the lack of quality in that position outside of Sane and Gnabry. What they would blame him for though is playing them for Muller, which is understandable.

It's an embarassment to the national team that someone like Younes is getting games. There have been plenty of players who have played for Germany but not turned out to be great players, like Schauldraff, Petersen, Wagner etc but atleast they were in the team during times when they were playing well domestically. Younes has had 3 goals and 2 assists this season and yet is deemed good enough to be in the national team over Draxler and Brandt who are still miles better players than him.

Brandt had decent episodes last season but mostly was very bad. Which had to do with him being played out of position, mind, but he was bad anyway. All things considered probably not atrocious but definitely not good and even at his best far, far away from the form he displayed under Bosz.

And people would blame him for playing Draxler. I know that because I've done that myself everytime he picked him. Draxler has no right to be anywhere near the national team whatsoever. Based on this current season, the same is true for Brandt. But he shouldn't be played on the wing anyway since he lacks the necessary quality in that position. The Brandt who played as an 8/10 hybrid under Bosz on the other hand should play over Goretzka, IMO.

Anyway, it's a pointless discussion if you ask me. If he played under a coach who uses him in the center and plays a possession oriented system, he could become great again but since Rose is coming in he probably needs to move for that to happen. And Draxler.. I really don't see him earning a spot again. He's not good enough to compete with the players we have in the center or on the wings.

 

[RashyForPM]

Well, yes, absolutely But actually I was referring to Löw. What I meant was: He already took Werner out of the starting eleven but he can't just throw him out of the team when he goes through a rough patch of form. That would be horrible from a man management perspective. Phrased that a bit misleading I guess.

Fair enough, I agree with that. It would be ridiculous for Germany to throw Werner out now, especially before the Euros. That miss was just really, really bad Even I wouldn’t expect myself to miss from there whatsoever, and I’m no professional striker.

For me, the Werner situation needs to only be assessed when it’s time for the German squad to go to Qatar, thus by the new manager. I know he was missing easy chances at Leipzig too, but this season has been an overload of missed...not even easy chances, but open goals.

 

[Zehner]

Fair enough, I agree with that. It would be ridiculous for Germany to throw Werner out now, especially before the Euros. That miss was just really, really bad Even I wouldn’t expect myself to miss from there whatsoever, and I’m no professional striker.

For me, the Werner situation needs to only be assessed when it’s time for the German squad to go to Qatar, thus by the new manager. I know he was missing easy chances at Leipzig too, but this season has been an overload of missed...not even easy chances, but open goals.

Yes, he's got issues with his nerves. Generally a decent technician and finisher - nothing special but efficient. But this season, the pressure seems to get the better of him. This isn't normal, he should bury such chances. And if he misses, it should be at least because the goal keeper made a somewhat decent save instead of tumbling.

Actually, this might cost him a top level career. He's 25 by now, if he wants to become a top striker at a top club then he can't allow himself to be unsettled by pressure to such a degree.

 

[stefan92]

Also, I think German fans are just a pain in the ass regarding the national team. Everybody is criticizing every single decision the coach makes.

Of course that's true but it just shows the expectations. And to put it bluntly these are (for me and most of my football-interested friends): The German national team is expected to comfortably win against most of the teams in the world, still win against basically everyone, and a loss is never acceptable except maybe we are facing a Golden Generation of a really respected footballing nation (that means Italy and Brazil, maybe France or Argentina), and even then it has to be respectable.

So obviously we have a massive crisis at the moment. In these 3 qualifying games we should have 3 wins and a goal difference of about 10:1 or something like that. We should never lose 0:6 against Spain. While the Nations League might be glorified friendlies, playing with the best team on paper and still not manage to do something meaningful should not happen.

We do not (anymore) have a top coach, we do not have quality in attack, and we do not have quality at the back. We still have good goalkeepers and a great central midfield, but that's it, and that is not enough. It is time for the DFB to start a restructuring like they did around 2000 when we were last this bad (and which resulted in the U21 title 2009 and the WC in 2014). Löw out sadly will for sure be necessary, but that alone would not fix everything...

 

[Zehner]

Of course that's true but it just shows the expectations. And to put it bluntly these are (for me and most of my football-interested friends): The German national team is expected to comfortably win against most of the teams in the world, still win against basically everyone, and a loss is never acceptable except maybe we are facing a Golden Generation of a really respected footballing nation (that means Italy and Brazil, maybe France or Argentina), and even then it has to be respectable.

So obviously we have a massive crisis at the moment. In these 3 qualifying games we should have 3 wins and a goal difference of about 10:1 or something like that. We should never lose 0:6 against Spain. While the Nations League might be glorified friendlies, playing with the best team on paper and still not manage to do something meaningful should not happen.

We do not (anymore) have a top coach, we do not have quality in attack, and we do not have quality at the back. We still have good goalkeepers and a great central midfield, but that's it, and that is not enough. It is time for the DFB to start a restructuring like they did around 2000 when we were last this bad (and which resulted in the U21 title 2009 and the WC in 2014). Löw out sadly will for sure be necessary, but that alone would not fix everything...

Times change. I understand the expectations but at some point you have to accept reality. When Germany plays a friendly amidst a tough season, players are more concerned with their health and club programme than with the national team. Those things have more to do with the way modern football has developed and less with the national team or its coach. I generally agree with most of that but to me this only matters in the context of games where something is at stake and everybody is motivated. That aside I still think you can't expect Germany to reach a semi final at every single tournament. You simply can't. There are multiple other nations who produce as much or even more talent than us. Especially in the absolute top drawer, the Ballon D'Or material, where Germany is traditionally a bit weak.

Also, the DFB has restructured the youth system recently and now puts more emphasis on individual quality. Moreover I think that you exaggerate a bit. The comparison with the early 00s is totally off if you ask me. Germany produced no talent whatsoever at that point in time. In the aftermath players like Borowski made it into the starting eleven. Our attack yesterday still consisted of Sané, Havertz and Gnabry. Three starters at international top clubs. And our midfield is stacked with quality like no other nation.

Actually I think the goal keepers are more concerning than the attack right now. And the defense is the weakest spot with the crown princes Süle and Tah somewhat underperforming expectations and no quality full backs available. But the attack.. I wouldn't be too worried by it right now.

 

[ForEverEleven]

Yes, he's got issues with his nerves. Generally a decent technician and finisher - nothing special but efficient. But this season, the pressure seems to get the better of him. This isn't normal, he should bury such chances. And if he misses, it should be at least because the goal keeper made a somewhat decent save instead of tumbling.

Actually, this might cost him a top level career. He's 25 by now, if he wants to become a top striker at a top club then he can't allow himself to be unsettled by pressure to such a degree.

I disagree. Werner has never been a decent technician, his touch is just so far from top level, it´s laughable. Even when he tries to take on players... he just boots the ball a few yards and tries to rely on his pace and chases it. No body faints, no smart turns and no close ball control. That´s why he is even more lost on the wings than as a sole striker. Against teams that sit deep, he is completely useless. At the moment I am struggling to find arguments for him to even take him to the Euros.

 

[stefan92]

Actually I think the goal keepers are more concerning than the attack right now. And the defense is the weakest spot with the crown princes Süle and Tah somewhat underperforming expectations and no quality full backs available. But the attack.. I wouldn't be too worried by it right now.

Should have said that better - we do not have trouble on the wings, thats true, but we don't have quality strikers. Werner is just not up to the highest level, and there currently is no one else at that spot - some "can also play there", but every one of them loses something against his strongest positions like Gnabry did these games - on the wing he is just better.

So wingers really are not on my mind at the moment - they are really good (our CM is still better) and that's it, nothing to brag about to much, nothing to worry about.

And yes of course I exaggerated a bit, being always absolutely serious would just be too boring in such a forum

 

[Zehner]

I disagree. Werner has never been a decent technician, his touch is just so far from top level, it´s laughable. Even when he tries to take on players... he just boots the ball a few yards and tries to rely on his pace and chases it. No body faints, no smart turns and no close ball control. That´s why he is even more lost on the wings than as a sole striker. Against teams that sit deep, he is completely useless. At the moment I am struggling to find arguments for him to even take him to the Euros.

I don't think so. Werner is a high risk, high reward player. His actions can look really dumb but they can also look great. You can stitch together a highlight real of him that looks absolutely amazing. Not the player type I would choose either but you can't deny that he's effective. Anyway, the way I see it we currently lack a prolific goal scorer so can't be picky if we have only one player at our disposal who can score 20+ goals a season.

Should have said that better - we do not have trouble on the wings, thats true, but we don't have quality strikers. Werner is just not up to the highest level, and there currently is no one else at that spot - some "can also play there", but every one of them loses something against his strongest positions like Gnabry did these games - on the wing he is just better.

So wingers really are not on my mind at the moment - they are really good (our CM is still better) and that's it, nothing to brag about to much, nothing to worry about.

And yes of course I exaggerated a bit, being always absolutely serious would just be too boring in such a forum

True Anyway, I think we mostly I agree. Personally I think Havertz can be the solution since he's extremely talented and while he already played various positions it seems as if he's taking the route to become a false 9 under Tuchel and Löw right now. I think this is very interesting since our wingers are also quite prolific at scoring goals, especially Gnabry and maybe even Werner. Moukoko could also be the solution but him aside I don't really see any striker talent coming through either. In general I like the idea of an attack that distributes the goal scoring responsibility on many heads (Havertz, Sané, Gnabry, Goretzka and Gündogan are all considerable goal threats for players of their positions).

 

[stefan92]

In general I like the idea of an attack that distributes the goal scoring responsibility on many heads (Havertz, Sané, Gnabry, Goretzka and Gündogan are all considerable goal threats for players of their positions).

I like that too, and that's why I liked Klose so much - he scored goals, but he also gave the German team structure and kept the ball in the game (something Gomez really struggled at, which more or less stopped him from being very important for the team). A pure poacher without any playmaking abilities would take much from those guys you mentioned. Werner also is not that kind of striker - I always imagine he could be at his best in a kind of 3-4-2-1 counter-attacking system behind the actual No 9.

 

[Lagger]

Far be it from me to defend Löw, he should have been gone in 2018 at the latest. But what am I missing here? The world cup qualification resumes end of the year, doesn't it? And then, Löw will be gone anyway?
Besides of course the anewed luck of the draw presenting Germany with another easy quali group.

We still have a EURO Championship to play. I'd rather try that tourney with a new coach than let Löw experiment any longer.

 

[Lagger]

I don't know, that's just a bit dramatic for me. First of all, Macedonia isn't San Marino, Lithuania or Luxemburg. They've got a few good players like Elmas and Bardhi and many decent ones who could play second or first division in Germany, England, Italy etc. Definitely a team that we should beat, no doubt, but they're definitely better than Iceland for example and just remember what they did against other big teams at the Euros. It's not uncommon for teams to slip in such a match, especially if it's in such a manner. So Macedonia is definitely not a team you have to beat 10:0.

Also, Löw is not to blame that players feck up in front of the goal. It's debatable to blame a coach for it in any circumstances but for the national team? Come on. At club level you could at least argue that he should train finishing but that's a silly point of criticism regarding a national coach. It's not his fault Gnabry hits a field goal, Havertz has a blackout, Werner can't hit the ball or Goretzka tests the woodwork. Instead Macedonia score out of nowhere and from then on it's a difficult game.

I think you folks will be in for a disappointment once Löw is gone. I hope not but it might be the case Germany fans are finally confronted with the irrationally high expectations they have.

I really was not trying to be dramatic. Quite the opposite. And after Flick left, the team went downhill, of course I'm going to blame the one constant in that story, that is Löw. Players mess up, sure, but he's the one that sent Müller and Boateng home and is too proud to ask them to come back when they are obviously in the form of their lives (still). Yes, he is the lynchpin that needs to be replaced. That's not irrational, nor is it emotional. It's just a very obvious step to take if you ask me.

As for our expectations, for the past decades we have mostly played for titles. Our expectations are neither irrational nor too high. They are dialed in absolutely correctly. We expect our team to reach the semis at least, if possible play for the title in the final. And if you look at the German NT you will find that we have the highest attendance in finals, our points in WCs are only surpassed by Brazil and there are endless more statistics to support high expectations. What you're doing, however, is typically German in that you shittalk your own team despite it being good enough to win any title. Not sure why people do that. The German NT isn't England, people actually care about the NT here and the NT is actually decent enough to be a title contender in every single tournament. (Sorry to my English friends here, but you know it's true, you care much more about club football than your NT).

Things like Russia are massive outliers. And losing against Macedonia should be an alert signal. I don't care if they have good players in them, I'm sure they do. But it's still freaking Macedonia.

To put it into perspective, I'd expect France or Spain to be able to beat us. That's it. Anyone else on the planet we should be able to handle right now. And before you ask me "with what team?" I'll remind you that there's a reason player prices spike after tourneys. It always amazes me that people don't understand that big player names are made at tournaments, not before. So even if you don't think they rate highly, wait until they perform decently at a tourney and then you'll go "Well, of course, with THAT team we ought to have reached the semis easily..." yes, well nobody ever said that during qualis... funny how that goes.

 

[Lagger]

You could make the same post about Mourinho. But no one cares what happened 5 years ago in football. The only thing that matters is what happens right now and that's a streak of unacceptable performances for three years going in Löw's case. Three whole years he had to build something and he's seemingly starting from scratch again during the tournament preparations. Which is also why there's absolutely no downside to sacking him now.

Exactly. This can't be emphasized enough. It's a low risk gamble for potentially high reward. It'd be stupid not to take the opportunity and the public opinion would clearly be behind such a decision.

 

[Hansi Fick]

We still have a EURO Championship to play. I'd rather try that tourney with a new coach than let Löw experiment any longer.

I would love it if they sacked him now and Rangnick takes over tomorrow, for various reasons (I'd love the drama, it would serve him right, and I'd love it that Flick would be out of the race), but it's just not going to happen.
Of course they'll let him play the tournament after he declared he'll step down after.

Maybe I'm more relaxed about it since I'm not so ardently following, or rooting for, the NT right now. There's too much about it that I detest, not just Löw. Die Mannschaft can have another embarrassing group stage exit, for all I care.

 

[Zehner]

I really was not trying to be dramatic. Quite the opposite. And after Flick left, the team went downhill, of course I'm going to blame the one constant in that story, that is Löw. Players mess up, sure, but he's the one that sent Müller and Boateng home and is too proud to ask them to come back when they are obviously in the form of their lives (still). Yes, he is the lynchpin that needs to be replaced. That's not irrational, nor is it emotional. It's just a very obvious step to take if you ask me.

As for our expectations, for the past decades we have mostly played for titles. Our expectations are neither irrational nor too high. They are dialed in absolutely correctly. We expect our team to reach the semis at least, if possible play for the title in the final. And if you look at the German NT you will find that we have the highest attendance in finals, our points in WCs are only surpassed by Brazil and there are endless more statistics to support high expectations. What you're doing, however, is typically German in that you shittalk your own team despite it being good enough to win any title. Not sure why people do that. The German NT isn't England, people actually care about the NT here and the NT is actually decent enough to be a title contender in every single tournament. (Sorry to my English friends here, but you know it's true, you care much more about club football than your NT).

Things like Russia are massive outliers. And losing against Macedonia should be an alert signal. I don't care if they have good players in them, I'm sure they do. But it's still freaking Macedonia.

To put it into perspective, I'd expect France or Spain to be able to beat us. That's it. Anyone else on the planet we should be able to handle right now. And before you ask me "with what team?" I'll remind you that there's a reason player prices spike after tourneys. It always amazes me that people don't understand that big player names are made at tournaments, not before. So even if you don't think they rate highly, wait until they perform decently at a tourney and then you'll go "Well, of course, with THAT team we ought to have reached the semis easily..." yes, well nobody ever said that during qualis... funny how that goes.

I don't think you get my point. Let me phrase it like this: The coach's job is to get the most out of the player material he has. Germany has great player material but there have been many teams that edged us in this aspect during Löw's time. That's not downtalking the team, it's just realism. And it's also a fact that no other team was as consistent as we were apart from Spain.

So you can have high expectations all you want, there are multiple other countries you could write the exact same things about. But those countries performed much worse than we did. Now you can say that all of them were coach incompetently or that Löw is the one-eyed among the blind. But it's beyond doubt that the German national team during his stint is one of the very few teams which consistently fulfilled the expectations, like it or not. Why do we think that this has had jothing to do with the coach? What's the distinguishing factor if not the coach between us and other nations with similar preconditions?

 

[Hansi Fick]

I don't think you get my point. Let me phrase it like this: The coach's job is to get the most out of the player material he has. Germany has great player material but there have been many teams that edged us in this aspect during Löw's time. That's not downtalking the team, it's just realism. And it's also a fact that no other team was as consistent as we were apart from Spain.

So you can have high expectations all you want, there are multiple other countries you could write the exact same things about. But those countries performed much worse than we did. Now you can say that all of them were coach incompetently or that Löw is the one-eyed among the blind. But it's beyond doubt that the German national team during his stint is one of the very few teams which consistently fulfilled the expectations, like it or not. Why do we think that this has had jothing to do with the coach? What's the distinguishing factor if not the coach between us and other nations with similar preconditions?

The national team hasn't been fulfilling expectations since 2016. That's five years now.

 

[Zehner]

The national team hasn't been fulfilling expectations since 2016. That's five years now.

In the past five years, it wasn't fulfilling expectations in the 2018 WC, the Nations League and friendlies. I think we agree that the latter two are meaningless.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that we probably won't be as successful in the upcoming decade as we've been under Löw.

 

[Hansi Fick]

In the past five years, it wasn't fulfilling expectations in the 2018 WC, the Nations League and friendlies. I think we agree that the latter two are meaningless.

Meaningless or not, the NT has been crap for 5 years, and your claim that Löw has them 'without doubt consistently fulfilling expectations' is therefore completely wrong.

 

[Hansi Fick]

Anyway, all I'm saying is that we probably won't be as successful in the upcoming decade as we've been under Löw.

Which, if it turns out to be true, will say nothing about Löw whatsoever, and all about the quality of players Germany is producing and the quality of work done in the clubs.

 

[do.ob]

In the past five years, it wasn't fulfilling expectations in the 2018 WC, the Nations League and friendlies. I think we agree that the latter two are meaningless.

They are meaningless to fans, not to officials. And after the 2018 WC and other mishaps I guarantee you Löw felt the pressure to produce results.

 

[Zehner]

Personally I see no point in continuing this debate. Fact of the matter, Löw in the last 15 years or so was one of a kind among national coaches. Except for Spain between 2008 and 2012, no other nation even came close to the consistently good performances Germany had during Löw's time as head coach despite some of them having even better players at their disposal.

If that doesn't convince you that we shouldn't take the results of the last 13 years for granted, nothing will. I mean, unless you believe every football association out there is lead by fools way worse than the DFB (because those guys are obviously incompetent, too, in the eyes of most Germans). This hasn't anything to do with player quality either. I don't think we're producing less talent than 10-20 years ago. We were one of the very few nations with a distinguishable playing style. People love to hate Löw currently, but at some in the future they will learn one way or the other that semi finals in big tournaments are great achievements and no matters of course. Let's see how people will look back at the Löw era when we finally feck up a qualification like the Netherlands or go out early in two or three consecutive cups like England or Italy.

 

[schwalbe]

How anyone can defend Löw is beyond me after what he and his buddies pulled after the masterpiece that was the 2018 worldcup. Feck me, that was shameless, greedy and just incredibly arrogant.

 

[Zehner]

How anyone can defend Löw is beyond me after what he and his buddies pulled after the masterpiece that was the 2018 worldcup. Feck me, that was shameless, greedy and just incredibly arrogant.

I'm not saying he should stay. I'm pointing out that Germans are spoilt regarding the national team and that the criticism has gone beyond rationality.