Geopolitics

[DanH]

Of course it does. Can you connect the dots or shall I do it for you if you’re having trouble?

Go on then. Can you show me that Japan has pivoted from the global west as a result of a) the bombings b) the ambassadors going to Tokyo rather than Nagasaki for the anniversary?

 

[Red Star One]

Abu-Ghraib says hi.

you're getting too agitated, I think. it's another post where someone tries to tell you "look, no one claims the West is morally perfect, but statistically it's still better than the others" and you again respond with long overworked whataboutism "but what about this one guy that was tortured"

 

[JeffFromHK]

Abu-Ghraib says hi.

it is cringeworthy to think that Abu Ghraib is a "gotcha", which I exactly had it in my mind when I typed my message.

especially when you are replying to my message saying that "USA is very far from morally perfect"

 

[glazed]

Oh there you are glazed. Missed you..hope you’re well.

I don’t think this is about sides. All the countries you have listed have blood on their hands. And the lasting legacies of British colonialism are still being felt today across the world, whilst US imperialism is alive and well, still causing death and destruction as we speak.

Of course there are no good guys and bad guys. All the countries on this list are guilty of atrocities and great deeds - and yes I include Israel, Britain and America in that. That's the nature of things. But if that's what you care about, almost everyone has the moral high ground on Russia, Iran, North Korea and China. Personally I don't see it as especially decisive. The winner write the history books and we have to make sure that's us by whatever means necessary.

 

[JeffFromHK]

Nope. You are conflating a theoretical exercise with something that actually happened. If you must know, I wouldn’t have pressed the button to killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Call me a lunatic I know!

what would ypur strategy against Japan be if you were in US’s position in smmer 1945? it is easily to pretend to be morally perfect by choosing to do nothing and point fingers at the others

 

[Zehner]

Exactly but the west pretends like it does.

The very fact that you can write this in Western societies without the fear of persecution is a clear sign that the West does have the moral high ground. Which of course doesn't mean that their actions on the geopolitical and diplomatic stage are always the epitome of moral integrity, far from it, but still better than in other parts of the world.

 

[711]

It's a weird concept, the entire 'Global West' being isolated.

It reminds me of the old British joke "Heavy fog in the channel, Continent isolated".

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

The very fact that you can write this in Western societies without the fear of persecution is a clear sign that the West does have the moral high ground.

"German court convicts activist for leading ‘from the river to the sea’ chant"

​

 

[Red Star One]

"German court convicts activist for leading ‘from the river to the sea’ chant"

​

ah yes the 600e fine for an ambiguous chant. this is indeed persecution comparable to that of Nemtsov and Navalny or Chinese Uyghurs

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

"how to make a reply on the internet without actually replying the points you are replying to"
your reply is nothing but a bunch of strawmen

Oh i replied to your post fine. you weren't making any coherent explicit points in that second paragraph anyway, just displaying a tiresomely juvenile attitude that is rather repugnant to me and very easily seen through to anyone that has spent parts of their life in countries on both sides of the democratic/autocratic coin.

 

[Pav1878]

what would ypur strategy against Japan be if you were in US’s position in smmer 1945? it is easily to pretend to be morally perfect by choosing to do nothing and point fingers at the others

I am not the leader of a powerful nation nor a military strategist. Asking me what I would do to end a world war is somewhat absurd. But I have already told you what I wouldn’t do and that is kill thousands of more people.

 

[Zehner]

"German court convicts activist for leading ‘from the river to the sea’ chant"

​

IMO rightfully so because that song essentially denies the existential right of Israel. That aside, I'm not proud about how Germany positioned itself in the Israel-Palestine war though it should be clear that Germany with its history can't be the country to lead ciriticism of Israel however justified it might be. People here are very hesitant to say anything anti-Israel because of guilt.

 

[Abizzz]

Yet another thread where I'm not sure if people have been brainwashed into thinking one court sentence is equivalent to the monopoly on truth totalitarian regimes claim for themselves or if they are trying to brainwash impressionable minds, or if they simply really are that thick.

 

[NicolaSacco]

Did the US kill millions of Iraqis? There was a lot of sectarian violence. The US itself did not bomb millions of Iraqis to death but ofcourse one can blame the US for having unleashed a chain of violence by the invasion itself.

Also, bombing Nagasaki/Hiroshima, really?

It’s a weird one isn’t it? An Iraqi civil war would have happened regardless of how Saddam was toppled. That doesn’t absolve the US of responsibility, but we’d have had another Syria (deadlier per capita than Iraq) however he left. Or if he’d managed to hand power successfully to his sons then I’d challenge anyone to claim that as any kind of preferable outcome.

 

[Giggsy PO]

You very much overestimate Russia if you think they're on China's side on equal terms. They are China's dogs and China owes them nothing, as often publicly highlighted by Chinese diplomacy. And South Korea is much closer to the US-EU axis than to China

That is a good point. Not only does China owe nothing to Russia. In many cases they already own them. There are 100+ years territorial disputes between China and Russia from the end of 19th century. China didn't forget that. They are just very patient. And the right moment to settle the score might come rather sooner than later. And it doesn't need to be a military solution. Russia will be just a vassal state to China on economic terms.

 

[Pav1878]

Of course there are no good guys and bad guys. All the countries on this list are guilty of atrocities and great deeds - and yes I include Israel, Britain and America in that. That's the nature of things. But if that's what you care about, almost everyone has the moral high ground on Russia, Iran, North Korea and China. Personally I don't see it as especially decisive. The winner write the history books and we have to make sure that's us by whatever means necessary.

Who is us?

The us vs them concept is the problem here. All of the aforementioned countries have committed atrocities.

the Chinese are persecuting minorities, the Russians have done the same, the British and Americans have committed countless atrocities in their history.

The fact that the west sides with a genocidal entity like Israel should really tell its own story though.

To get back to the OP, yes the west is being isolated from the rest of the world, mainly because it stands with Israel, who has broken every international humanitarian law, and now has no moral legitimacy.

 

[Maticmaker]

'Moral High Ground' ... what does that mean, didn't it used to be 'one-up-man-ship'?
Whose 'moral compass' is being used anyway?

In a world where 'might' has always be equated to being 'right', where the winners 'write the history,' 'biggest first' etc. what difference does it make when the moral high ground, (whatever that is) is claimed by whatever/whoever?

Does it alter anything? Does it mean the right to 'cast the first stone'?

Or is it just something else for people/countries/ etc to argue about?

 

[Pav1878]

ah yes the 600e fine for an ambiguous chant. this is indeed persecution comparable to that of Nemtsov and Navalny or Chinese Uyghurs

The crack down on pro Palestinian voices in the west especially places like Germany has been disgraceful though and shows that free speech only exists in the west if you support Israel.

 

[Pav1878]

Which country are you from? I am from Hong Kong and technically China anyway. what is the "western society" you are pointing finger at?

to be frank with you, If my country is doing what Japan did in WWII, I would call what my country suffers as a result a karma.

I’m a British citizen of Indian descent. I am also very much aware of the human rights violations of India which is a topic for another day. I’m also equally appalled at what the Indian government have done minorities there for decades since independence.

The western society I am pointing a finger at? It’s obvious isn’t it? The US, UK and Europe who are the original colonisers and the root cause of almost every geopolitical problem we are seeing now:


India/Pakistan
Israel/Palestine
Centuries of persecution of Jewish people.
A pillaged Africa struggling to recover from colonialism and slavery.
The disappearance of native people from South America and the displacement of Native people from North America.

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

I mean, China is literally putting their Muslims in concentration camps in tens of thousands and destroying the local communities so that they have nothing to do with Islam so I don't know if this genocide and over a million detained (who knows how many dead) is "worse than gaza", it's just funny seeing devoted Muslims looking at China as their saviour.

It is so intellectually lazy to put all the "West" together and make every state responsible for the atrocities of Israel, when you had countries and politicians (like Pedro Sanchez) that went to great lengths to help Palestinians.

having worked for a few years in some international cooperation agencies, I think it's time to slowly extinguish the "Western high moral ground" myth. Take the gloves off and be more decisive in defending the Western influence and interest around the world. Ramp up not only military efforts but also espionage and propaganda activities trying to destabilise those that try to destabilise us. Luckily, at least in the EU, it's slowly (very slowly) but surely happening, France having a much bigger say after Brexit and German appeasement failure followed by their policy change had a big influence on this. And we should see more of this, it's impressive how quickly Germany got their Rheinmetall up to speed, there's more and more talk about the EU army and the cooperation between intelligence is closer than ever.

and the West will always be the place to migrate if you're brilliant, because a vast majority of the people dream of freedom and living in democracy, so the brain drain that's been ongoing for centuries is not going to stop.

This already happened and has been the case throughout post WW2 decades. It was this thing called the Cold War and was filled with dubious military interventions, coups, propaganda and espionage from every major player involved. Then when it ended we got America "taking the gloves off" in the middle-east and Putin going steadily back to authoritarian aggression (which has quickly produced a reaction that was probably a lot more aggressive and unified than he bargained for) and an increasingly powerful China playing the bully in neighbouring regions. btw the western support and economic cooperation Putin had until he's gone too far and started a major war in Europe was not out of softness...it was pure greed and right-wing capitalist elites recognising their own.

being too moral and taking the high ground has never been an issue geopolitically since WW2 for any internationally powerful countries compared to being belligent, corrupt and aggressive, or coldly self-serving. tbh i wish it was.

 

[glazed]

Who is us?

The us vs them concept is the problem here. All of the aforementioned countries have committed atrocities.

the Chinese are persecuting minorities, the Russians have done the same, the British and Americans have committed countless atrocities in their history.

The fact that the west sides with a genocidal entity like Israel should really tell its own story though.

To get back to the OP, yes the west is being isolated from the rest of the world, mainly because it stands with Israel, who has broken every international humanitarian law, and now has no moral legitimacy.

Us is the place I live, Britain. I want us to win the war and the others to lose it. That's what is in my interests and my country's interests.

You can throw in your opinion that Israel is genocidal but it doesn't make it true. That's just your particular narrative which you are welcome to, infantile as it seems to me, but it's just an opinion, not a fact. Don't assume others see it that way. They very clearly do not in many cases.

 

[DanH]

Did anyone manage to list any countries that have significantly amended or severed diplomatic or trade agreements with the UK/US/EU over the Gaza conflict?

 

[Zehner]

'Moral High Ground' ... what does that mean, didn't it used to be 'one-up-man-ship'?
Whose 'moral compass' is being used anyway?

In a world where 'might' has always be equated to being 'right', where the winners 'write the history,' 'biggest first' etc. what difference does it make when the moral high ground, (whatever that is) is claimed by whatever/whoever?

Does it alter anything? Does it mean the right to 'cast the first stone'?

Or is it just something else for people/countries/ etc to argue about?

The bolded is key. Morality is ambiguous and your values highly depend on your upbringing and socialization. Moral codexes vary from culture to culture and you might call it arrogant when Western people think their values are the "true" and "right" ones but I'd rather be arrogant than ignorant out of pretence of cultural tolerance. Either you have values or you don't. If you're supporting homosexual rights and gender equality, then you have to acknowledge that large parts of the world are decades behind Western societies in this regard. If you believe that a racially motivated act of violence is despicable then it is despicable wherever it happens.

 

[Red Star One]

To get back to the OP, yes the west is being isolated from the rest of the world, mainly because it stands with Israel, who has broken every international humanitarian law, and now has no moral legitimacy.

how is the West being isolated from the rest of the world? "Mainly because it stands with Israel", so what are the other reasons? But like really, where do you see this isolation and who is isolating the West, because to me it sounds like pure copium and wishful thinking fuelled by online bullshit.

 

[DanH]

how is the West being isolated from the rest of the world? "Mainly because it stands with Israel", so what are the other reasons? But like really, where do you see this isolation and who is isolating the West, because to me it sounds like pure copium and wishful thinking fuelled by online bullshit.

I'm sure they will be able to show it at some point. Or maybe the OP could do it.

 

[Zehner]

The crack down on pro Palestinian voices in the west especially places like Germany has been disgraceful though and shows that free speech only exists in the west if you support Israel.

What the hell are you talking about? You can spread zionstic world conspiracy theories without persecution in Germany. People have been wearing kufiyas to show their support of Palestine since 20 years. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, fecking hell

 

[JeffFromHK]

I am not the leader of a powerful nation nor a military strategist. Asking me what I would do to end a world war is somewhat absurd. But I have already told you what I wouldn’t do and that is kill thousands of more people.

According to your logic if your home country is invaded, it is morally wrong to defend instead of surrenderng since your decision to defend means deaths?

btw, why is that it is absurd to ask you what would you do if you are not a military strategist? You are commenting on miltary strategy affairs of another country yourself in the first place (US was morally wrong to nuclear bomb japan), don't you find yourself hypocritical?

 

[Raoul]

I'm sure they will be able to show it at some point. Or maybe the OP could do it.

I'm sure the OP will chime in on the last few pages soon.

 

[VorZakone]

Did anyone manage to list any countries that have significantly amended or severed diplomatic or trade agreements with the UK/US/EU over the Gaza conflict?

The isolation, to my knowledge, is mostly contained to voting at the UN and the ICC/ICJ. Some small boycots here and there perhaps (Turkey did something?) but nothing truly big. However, I wouldn't discount it either. Once the ball gets rolling it may cause further issues for the West. Unfortunately Western political leaders insist on making a mockery out of the 'rules-based order'.

 

[JeffFromHK]

What the hell are you talking about? You can spread zionstic world conspiracy theories without persecution in Germany. People have been wearing kufiyas to show their support of Palestine since 20 years. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, fecking hell

here in China, the chinese media is (tactically) equating "Western police arresting netizens cheering for 7 Oct 2023 Hamas attack and calling for the killing of Israelis" with "cracking down on pro-palestine voices"

 

[Gehrman]

The isolation, to my knowledge, is mostly contained to voting at the UN and the ICC/ICJ. Some small boycots here and there perhaps (Turkey did something?) but nothing truly big. However, I wouldn't discount it either. Once the ball gets rolling it may cause further issues for the West. Unfortunately Western political leaders insist on making a mockery out of the 'rules-based order'.

Its difficult to imagine the countries that has the most lose to cut trade deals with the US/EU/UK or for China for instance even though they will usually signal support for anti western sentiments. The Gaza conflict/genocide/war is horrific but i can't see any big players changing their stance. The international stage is anarchy where everyone tends to protect their own interests.

The only country that could effectively hit by sanctions so its felt is Israel.

 

[Spoony]

The West are better more moralistic than the Khmer Rouge. So there. We only support the odd genocide.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

And what of the millions of Iraqis killed by the US? Or the many countries bombed by the US in their history including the cities of Nagasaki and Hiroshima?

And how many people did the British kill or allow to starve in India? How many geopolitical messes have Britain and the US caused with their colonial foreign policy?

You made this up. Millions were not killed by the US. British and US military launched enquiries into every single civilian death caused by collateral damage and an investigation was launched into every single one of them, how it happened, how it could have been prevented and what failure led to the deaths.

Source: I was there. I know you're going to link IBC that claimed hundreds of thousands despite even acknowledging that less than 10% were caused by actual Coalition involved fighting.

Using Nagasaki and Hiroshima as a way to beat down on the US is insanely ridiculous. The Atomic bombs were a mercy - and the biggest argument the general staff made into using it was the modelled simulations of how many casualties Operation Olympic would have cost both US and Japan (hint, an order of magnitude higher than nagasaki and hiroshima combined)

 

[AfonsoAlves]

This already happened and has been the case throughout post WW2 decades. It was this thing called the Cold War and was filled with dubious military interventions, coups, propaganda and espionage from every major player involved. Then when it ended we got America "taking the gloves off" in the middle-east and Putin going steadily back to authoritarian aggression (which has quickly produced a reaction that was probably a lot more aggressive and unified than he bargained for) and an increasingly powerful China playing the bully in neighbouring regions. btw the western support and economic cooperation Putin had until he's gone too far and started a major war in Europe was not out of softness...it was pure greed and right-wing capitalist elites recognising their own.

being too moral and taking the high ground has never been an issue geopolitically since WW2 for any internationally powerful countries compared to being belligent, corrupt and aggressive, or coldly self-serving. tbh i wish it was.

If you think this is taking the gloves off wait until the actual gloves are taken off.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Nope. You are conflating a theoretical exercise with something that actually happened. If you must know, I wouldn’t have pressed the button to killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Call me a lunatic I know!

Nagasaki and Hiroshima was quite literally a trolley problem.

Japan refused to surrender.

Option A: Operation Olympic - 3-5 million dead

Option B: Nuclear weapons. 150k dead.

Guess which one is more humane.

 

[DanH]

The isolation, to my knowledge, is mostly contained to voting at the UN and the ICC/ICJ. Some small boycots here and there perhaps (Turkey did something?) but nothing truly big. However, I wouldn't discount it either. Once the ball gets rolling it may cause further issues for the West. Unfortunately Western political leaders insist on making a mockery out of the 'rules-based order'.

I don't doubt that there has been a decline in Western influence but I don't believe any states will seek to sever ties or otherwise isolate us simply as the costs are too high and states are typically governed by self interest.

 

[Gehrman]

Nope. You are conflating a theoretical exercise with something that actually happened. If you must know, I wouldn’t have pressed the button to killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Call me a lunatic I know!

Would you have given the go ahead sign for an invasion that would be infinitely more bloody and taking more time to end the worst war of all time?

 

[AfonsoAlves]

The amount of people here who are siding with "Not the West" due to geopolitics have no clue, absolutely no clue, what the other axis is capable of if they had the power.

Even when they don't have the power, the shit is already starting to spread. Concentration camps, ethnic violence, mass executions. Annexing territory like its 1888 all over again.

I also find it interesting how the narrative around the cold war is always "America bad".

Hey one side quite literally rolled tanks into any country that remotely tried to hold elections and literally came up with the Brezhnev doctrine - We have the right to invade anyone who turns away from the CCCP, but of course coups are somehow much worse.

 

[VorZakone]

Would you have given the go ahead sign for an invasion that would be infinitely more bloody and taking more time to end the worst war of all time?

I've seen such discussions play out on reddit and eventually some were saying "we shouldn't have imposed unconditional surrender" on the Axis powers.

 

[Idxomer]

The amount of people here who are siding with "Not the West" due to geopolitics have no clue, absolutely no clue, what the other axis is capable of if they had the power.

Even when they don't have the power, the shit is already starting to spread. Concentration camps, ethnic violence, mass executions. Annexing territory like its 1888 all over again.

I also find it interesting how the narrative around the cold war is always "America bad".

Hey one side quite literally rolled tanks into any country that remotely tried to hold elections and literally came up with the Brezhnev doctrine - We have the right to invade anyone who turns away from the CCCP, but of course coups are somehow much worse.

Why side with either of them?

It's odd that the hatred people harbour for Russia or China means they become ardent defenders of the US or something even worse like Israel.