Di Matteo winning the CL didn't make him a good manager.
Gareth Southgate
- Thread starter keithsingleton
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Di Matteo had one good half-season managing a club with a track record of consistent success. Southgate has had multiple good tournaments with one of the most underperforming teams in football. It's not really a good comparison.
Yup.
He is a tournament manager. Similar with Deschamps or Joachim Low. Fantastic for NT, not so much (or potentially disastrous) for clubs.
Imagine making it to the Euro final by playing: Serbia, Denmark, Slovenia, Slovakia, Switzerland and an absolutely woeful Holland side 
The guy is a fecking joker and consistently gets piss easy draws in tournaments.
The guy is a fecking joker and consistently gets piss easy draws in tournaments.
Well congrats, the only person who comes out of that looking lower leagues is you
Did he also reach the final another year?
I dont think hes that good. Thats the fascinating part. A europa league quality manager isnt that good. There are several tens of them
Unfortunately when there are lunatics suggesting he's not even a premier league level manager when he has England in the finals of a major tournament again and may win it this time, it makes everyone who doesnt rate him that high look stupid
Are most Bayern and PSG managers awful? Both clubs should have won the champions league several times with the squads they've had, sometimes theyve even managed to not win their domestic leagues as well as not win the champions league. Thats because even when you have lots of talent and resources, when you are expected to do very well and win things its still a bit harder than it seems. Because of that miniscule scope for success.
Thats where Southgate is now. England should win something, they should be successful and so yeah sure if he wins its what he should do and yet because of that presure its harder than that. By no means does it automatically make him a great manager but many good ones will fail under that pressure. So he's better than managers who go to a team that are expected to win big tournaments and dont
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He is nowhere near Europa league manager of a PL club. Nowhere near.
He was never that, and international football does not prepare a manager for the intricacies and complexities of club football, especially so when he would have no access to that level of player for a club.
If he wins the euros he's going to have plenty of access to a big job in England. One of the main reasons why will be that those players who worked with him will be asking for it themselves.
If you're a club with the resources to have anything like the talent at his current disposal, you are not looking at Southgate.
I think we're at an impasse here anyway because you're purposely avoiding breaking down the guy into tangible components of value - which is a strength of yours as a poster - and we both know why that is the case.
Good vibes alone do not cut it in club football.
Yup.
As much as I truly want to win tommorow, feck me, we'll never be allowed to even constructively critisise him ever again.
Even failing to qualify for a tournament would be meet with "he won the Euros X amount of years ago you ungrateful twerp".
Even failing to qualify for a tournament would be meet with "he won the Euros X amount of years ago you ungrateful twerp".
Most reasonable people will still allow for constructive criticism.
Saying that if he wins the euros the first bit of legislation Labour should put into place is a ‘Southgate day’, and a ban on all negative talk against him!
It’s weird that people desperately want to judge him through the lens of club football to be honest. We know he isn’t up to managing a club side but he seems to have something when it comes to managing an international side, and even if it’s just creating an environment where people feel comfortable and want to perform, he’s done it and England, results wise, have performed above expectation during his reign.
How do we know whether he's a championship or Europa league or PL level manager anyway to be so convinced he's one or the other?
All he's done in club football is perform awfully for Boro. That's the top and bottom of it.
What he's done as an international manager has no bearing whatsoever. It's a completely different job. The only comparison is standing on the touchline as a bunch of players kick a ball around. The actual coaching and responsibilities are completely different.
What he does/has done for England will get him a gig somewhere if he wants it, but it doesn't say anything about his ability to do the job. We'll see.
All he's done in club football is perform awfully for Boro. That's the top and bottom of it.
What he's done as an international manager has no bearing whatsoever. It's a completely different job. The only comparison is standing on the touchline as a bunch of players kick a ball around. The actual coaching and responsibilities are completely different.
What he does/has done for England will get him a gig somewhere if he wants it, but it doesn't say anything about his ability to do the job. We'll see.
I dont think he has good vibes.
I think he has done okay with a high profile job with big expectations on him and many good managers have tried and done worse as England manager. Or as PSG or Bayern manager and not won their domestic league, or not won the champions league when they've had the talent to do so.
And if he wins the euros I think its laughable to suggest hes not a decent manager and that opinion wont be taken seriously because many good managers have tried to win it and failed at big teams.
I dont rate him that highly, I dont want him at the big club I support and I wouldnt be worried if he went to a rival but obviously if players have played for him and done well, and if they win the euros with him, then they'll want to try him as club manager if their club needs a new manager going forward.
Why wouldnt they? They already have a relationship, have won something together (in this scenario), bonded and he picks them. Why would they want to play for someone they dont know and havent done any of those things? So I'm sure if he wins the euros he'll get a big job at some point. Maybe not straight away but that accomplishment wont be going anywhere. And managers will come and go to big clubs in the premier league and failing because some always do.
Some examples here. Arne Slot and Louis Van Gaal. What did they win that got Liverpool and United interested in appointing them and more importantly to actually appoint them? Slot came 2nd and won domestic cups with AZ, a team that could do that. David Moyes? Europa League places with everton. Arteta? Assistant manager to a great manager. The big job often go to people who havent done a great deal. Winning the euros would be way ahead of what some of them have accomplished.
Its actually rare that a premier league club appoints a new manager who has won the champions league or won the league they were in before with anything other than the one outstanding team thats expected to win it. You have Klopp coming in after reaching the champions league finals and winning the title with Dortmund who were certainly not expected to do so. But even he was in 7th place before he went to a top club in England. Maresca has been appointed at Chelsea after being a championship manager and winning the championship. There is not a big barrier to entry as a manager at the bigger clubs in England and winning the euros would be far beyond what most have on their CV.
Fernando Santos got held accountable for poor performances after winning Portugal the Euros.
It should give him credit in the bank sure, but not the blanket backing it inevitably will. I bet he'd survive even failing to qualify for one.
Being generous, he's a championship manager at best.
Farley is the goat
You can't resist dropping deeper than the pacific ocean
Which player would ask for Southgate as his next manager ?
England's first 11 are playing for Real, Bayern, City, United, Arsenal, Newcastle and Palace (not for long).
I don't think Pickford, Palmer or Bowen are salivating at the idea of working with Gareth fecking Southgate all year-long.
He's a bang average manager lucky beyond belief with the teams he draws in tournaments.
Everton or West Ham maybe, but i don't consider them "a big job in England"
Oh okay so you think players would rather play for a manager they have no relationship with than a manager they've won a big tournament with. Gotcha. Filing that one under insanity.
Good players at big clubs in England would rather play for a manager who can win in club football rather than Southgate, yes. The definition of insanity is thinking Saka, Rice, Mainoo or Foden would like to play for Southgate in the PL.
Only a few hours before it's done and he goes back into oblivion. Unless the FA does FA things...
You dont know that he cant win in club football, he's had over a decade of experience since he last tried and hes doing the best hes ever done, perhaps even winning a big competition
Of course people want to work with those they have been successful with and have a good relationship with. Its the same as any line of work and why when a new manager comes in they tend to bring a bunch of staff in that have worked with them before. They're replacing people who may well have a good record in club football but its more important to have a good relationship and to have achieved success together before
How do you know they have a "good" relationship ? Because the same 3/4 figure heads say "gareth is great" in interviews ? I doubt Saka, Rashford and Sancho are fans of him and his "management". The same way i doubt Rice, Walker and other players who spoke out anonymously enjoyed his treatment of White in Qatar. I'm not sure they enjoy getting mocked for shitting themselves every time they lead a game because there seems to be no plan or adaptation given to them. Most of them work or have worked with the best managers in the world, they probably don't care if their next manager has an english accent.
Coaching staff is a completely different thing in my opinion, they mostly keep the same group together because they're used to work and delegate in their own way. Unless you're a nobody you usually already have a tight group that you've worked with for years, successful or not.
that was a nice oneYou can't resist dropping deeper than the pacific ocean
You know what? He deserves all the plaudits - within the sphere of international football - that come his way should he win the Euros. Sir Gareth. National hero. Worldbreaker. Whatever.
But currency in club football? This is something I think you're seriously overestimating.
Jobs are doled out for: ideas, concepts, philosophy, tactical genius or ingenuity, constructive success, tangible growth etc. Not: good vibes, bucketloads of luck, barely scraping through with elite squads etc. etc.
And I'm not shitting on Southgate (for once), but he hasn't done anything innovative or awe-inspiring, or transferable, for that matter like other NT coaches have to universal acclaim. Acclaim that is usually the icing on the cake of a club career.
Neither the European Cup or the World Cup has the tendency to earn winners big club jobs. Scolari is the anamoly, but usually these managers end their careers with the NT stint and even when they don't, it doesn't result in big club gigs.
Perhaps it's the equivalent of what players go through - great club players who have great majors enhance their legacy greatly, but players who have great runs in majors with no club feats, don't often lead to much.
Southgate winning the Euros doesn't suddenly become hot property or a person of interest for quality clubs.
better to be lucky than good..and he’s sure been lucky. Let’s see how he does once again against a quality team where reactionary management doesn’t prevail.
I agree with your overall point about international managers and their currency in the club game. But the bolded part is not necessarily true is it? I mean that is definitely the trend and a lot of big clubs are going that way but take Real Madrid for example. They have a tendency of valuing the soft skills and understanding of their culture over philosophy or concepts. I think Del Bosque and Zidane are good examples of that and maybe even Ancelotti who was considered all vibes with no clear tactical vision or intensity in his Bayern days. I am not saying Southgate would get the Real job but there has definitely been managers of his profile who have achieved even less than him that got that job because of their connection to the club and supposed understanding of its culture. The examples I mentioned are the successful ones but there are others who didn't cut it.
They have good vibes and understanding of the essence of the club, but they also have a lot more going for them than that. All of them got a true tune out of elite players and played some truly outstanding football at times. How many times in Southgate's entire tenure as England manager has he put on games for the ages, or even really solid 90 minute performances against teams equal to or better than his side? How many times has it felt like the luck of the draw, or a moment of individual brilliance has bailed him out? And even if we say the same moments of individual brilliance have been the definition of Madrid, the football these guys played in the lead up to said moments, is in a different stratosphere to Southgate.
There's also the fact they all ran successful league campaigns alongside the more unpredictable nature of cup ties. They are just infinitely better managers with transferable criteria to why that is so.
I mean with the squad we’ve got and the route we’ve had it’s not a massive shock that we’d get far. The style of football has been poor, we’ve scraped through every single game and had some luck. We have been boring but ground out wins. Just.
if he goes to club football he will be exposed.
however, 2 euro finals in a row is some feat and deserves respect.
if he goes to club football he will be exposed.
however, 2 euro finals in a row is some feat and deserves respect.
My point was in response to how big clubs appoint managers. When Del Bosque and Zidane were appointed, they had no record of playing great football and they were not hired on the basis of a specific type of football they were going to implement. They were hired on the basis that they understand the club and were well liked and/or respected by the players. I am just trying to say that big clubs make managerial appointments of all types and based on all criteria depending on where said club is, its dynamic, culture, expectations at that moment in time, etc...
Well you're essentially talking about alumni, which is very much the norm in Spain and their giants do it all the time. Southgate isn't going to get a job based on that, unless Villa come calling.
You dont tend to win a tournament with a manager you dont work well with.
Please go away now.
Absolute donkey dick