He sounds confident?
Gareth Southgate
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) get the depressing job of reviewing United's 3-0 loss at Old Trafford to Liverpool. They discuss what went wrong, Casemiro's day to forget, and the pressure now on Erik Ten Hag. They also take some time to give McTominay a proper farewell, and give their overall thoughts on the Summer Transfer Window.
I think Spain are too strong for England in my opinion. Yes Spain will be missing Pedri. Olmo isn't a bad stand-in. Both Rodri and Ruiz have been fantastic as have Williams and Yamal on the wings. The midfield will be too powerful.
Englands right wing is where most of our attacks come from, Williams will need doubling up and will pin down the attack on that side. Yamal will destroy tripper on pace and acceleration so he will need help. That's both flanks already pinned back. Before curcuella and carvajal get involved.
Then add the ability of Ruiz to make penetrating runs, Olmo ability to get on the end of plays and Rodri ability to control the midfield and it's a huge uphill task.
Spain will have 70% + possession and just tire England into mistakes. I don't think England have come up against a team this good in a competitive match for a long long time.
I could be completely wrong, but I don't see Spain losing this (unless England can drag it out to penalty shootout).
I haven't seen enough to suggest he'd be a solid PL manager. He's taken one of the best groups of attacking players on the international stage and turned them into a side that lacks any cutting edge. He persists with the same tactics for ages when it clearly isn't working, and only seems to make changes when forced into it.
He might be a good steady eddy type if given the chance, but I couldn't say with confidence he will be and I'm not sure how anyone could really.
That isn't to say I don't see the qualities he brings that are useful for international tournament football, I do. But the PL is a different beast altogether.
If he’s smart, he stays on in that position as long as possible and builds his legacy as that.
Him going back into club management will end badly, especially if it’s with a team that has aspirations to win major honours. He’s 15 years out of practice and he wasn’t particularly standout when he was in it.
Its like Chris Coleman and how everyone went mad thinking he’d be getting a good Premier League job after Wales, and he’s now managing in the Cypriot league.
Plus Southgate isn’t that young anymore (mid 50s?), and these days there seems to be a shift to hire younger guys to head coach positions, like guys in their 40s and even 30s.
Him going back into club management will end badly, especially if it’s with a team that has aspirations to win major honours. He’s 15 years out of practice and he wasn’t particularly standout when he was in it.
Its like Chris Coleman and how everyone went mad thinking he’d be getting a good Premier League job after Wales, and he’s now managing in the Cypriot league.
Plus Southgate isn’t that young anymore (mid 50s?), and these days there seems to be a shift to hire younger guys to head coach positions, like guys in their 40s and even 30s.
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I would suggest that his results would suggest he would probably get results and not performances at a club side. And I cant imagine he'd do worse than mid table. He doesnt look a top manager or one that you'd really want at your club side thinking you're going to play good football and get the most out of your players no, but he looks like he'd get the job done for a decent finish. I'm not sure he'd be worse than ETH for example. I just dont think he's the answer to doing better either.
Never! I mean England.
Yes, if we shithouse a win I guess it doesn’t prove much but the truth is we never win so he’ll be the guy to get us over the line.
hope he wont kiss any one on lips after finals 
Was absolutely mad that anybody thought England would actually win the euros with this guy in charge
Just one more win needed, come on Gareth!
Almost made a joke about how Enlgand had 4 points with 1 group game remaining when you posted this, and that when Portugal won it they never got that many so England must have a good chance too. Thought better of it but that's tournamnet football, you never actually know.
Just need to stumble over the line now. Who's the Eder equivalent player?
I’ll be generous compared to what I really think and say maybe he could manage a mid table PL team but his time with Middlesbrough was pretty grim - the side he inherited was “ok” and he came 12th, then 13th and 19th/relegated (below some pretty crap teams).
His results (if not performances) at international level are clearly better but he’s had fantastic players at his disposal and while I wouldn’t say he’s been jammy, he’s been fortunate (there’s a difference?) and Ive never seen good flexibility from him or clever tactical changes for certain opposition/situations in matches. This squad has a good 9 (though should be used differently given his drop off in pace), two very good 9 replacements, a lad coming off a great RM season, two top Arsenal players, a lad who won every POTY award, half of the title winners back four, etc. And that’s before you get to younger players like Palmer, Gordon, Mainoo (who are all coming off good seasons) and plenty of others.
Hopefully Pep leaves and City make Southgate manager.
That’s not really relevant to what I said? I agree re no time for systems and that’s why a lot of teams have been playing a simple counter which has made it a bit of a rubbish Euros. I don’t think there’s a strong argument to say England, France, Spain, Germany shouldn’t be beating Slovakia or Switzerland though?
The truth is in any knock out tournament your draw is a huge part of how you do, it’s factual (and not a negative for Southgate, it’s just a fact) that he’s always avoided the bigger teams and favourites. Spain have been playing well and their route to the final has been ridiculously difficult comparatively, they go in as favourites. It’s time for Southgate to show he can win against a team who are seen as better than us. Otherwise he’s done nothing different to previous managers who went out to teams like Germany, Portugal, Italy on pens previously in knockouts.
Southgate in the PL of mid to late 2000’s: 12th, 13th, 19th (relegated).
This was the PL era accepting of defensive football or setting up your side however you so wished, and he was crap in that, at a time when his mindset and tactical ideas reaped dividends for those more skilled.
The PL of this era does not suit Southgate’s negative ideals and tactical plans are much more intensive and autonomous - find the exploits and pick at them non-stop. Southgate does not have the nous to cope with that nor the balls to play for 3pts week in and week out.
He has a squad of players at his disposal right now that he never gets to perform above the sum of its parts; extrapolate that to him handling considerably weaker squads in club football and what exactly is supposed to happen? Especially so when the evidence of how he performed in a more tactically friendly era is right there.
He’s a Championship manager - there’s no club in the PL that would be anticipating the arrival of Southgate. He is not getting a top 14 job (our owners even looking in his direction is offensive) and he’s got nothing that would keep the remainder up.
A better question is whether he could get a Championship club promoted, and even then, I doubt it.
He got them to two consecutive Euro finals! What kind of bird brain thinks that this all down to luck?
I don't know, do you?
I don’t think he’s better than past England managers. Let’s face it the team has crashed out of 7 major tournaments due to choking at penalties. Win 50% of those penos and the narrative is completely different. It might as simple as Southgate being blessed with players who have a little ice in their veins or are too young to know the fear that past teams had going into penalties.
I still don't think it'll happen. But fair play, he is good at beating teams he should be beating. I still think he has consistently fallen short at every hurdle against equivalent level opposition and he's held you back more than benefited against the weaker sides. But when England's been used to completely flopping against shit teams, just having the safety blanket of "an Iceland is unlikely to happen" is a plus I guess. A super unambitious plus, which combined with the luckiest luck of draws that I've ever seen over a set of tournaments has led to some solid runs. But I also think previous England sides, the golden generation etc, just had bad luck. Is it failure to lose to 2002 Brazil? Losing on pens to quality Portugal sides? Losing to good Germany sides? That doesn't make those managers worse than Southgate, he just got lucky draws so he played avoided the good sides.Just one more win needed, come on Gareth!
Almost made a joke about how Enlgand had 4 points with 1 group game remaining when you posted this, and that when Portugal won it they never got that many so England must have a good chance too. Thought better of it but that's tournamnet football, you never actually know.
Just need to stumble over the line now. Who's the Eder equivalent player?
It's not even personnel. He's of course done a better job than Hodgson, but others simply didn't get lucky with draws. Southgates record against good sides is really bad with England. Other managers just got drawn against those sides in knockout rounds or the group, while Southgate somehow has consistently avoided them.
Every England manager bar Venables(who was only in charge for the one tournament) had a bad record against good sides. Hell, even Ramsey does when you look into it.
He's obviously a better manager than he was previously as evidenced by more success. Come on this is nonsense
Yeah, no he isn’t given England mostly win in spite of him not because of him, which is a privilege afforded to him at NT that he’d never get at club level.
Who do you actually, or honestly believe he could out coach in the PL? And what’s it based on?
Again any club happy to be in the europa league with an idea that they could win it. Based on managing England further than plenty of international teams with similar levels of talent in previous tournaments.
If he wins the Euros are you going to still carry on with this dogshit that he's a championship manager?
I like the guy and would be amazing to see him win the competition. Does seem like a decent bloke who has fostered great sense of unity in the squad during his time as England boss. Nevertheless, the FA falling over themselves to tie him down to a new contract boils my piss. You cannot trust someone who does things like :
* lose ‘open goal’ finals at home through sheer rabbit in the headlights level mis-management and paralysing management anxiety, turning Wembley into a morgue and watching players tire to exhaustion for 60 minutes and doing absolutely f all about it.
* not only puts TAA as a metronome midfielder in an actual tournament game - and then repeats the choice despite concrete evidence it’s a train wreck - and then! It’s a defecting train wreck agan!
* Has to be bullied by the entire media and fan base into making sensible choices like Mainoo in midfield and subbing off Kane when he has become the almost literal equivalent of a fecking traffic cone.
* Doesn’t take a left footed LB but does take about 7 left footed attackers
* Bemoans the loss of kelvin phillips after his stupid as feck TAA experiment, despite having literally a world class squad of players available.
He picked a good starting XI vs Netherlands and he even subbed off two of the undroppables to his merit. It won us the match, however, also seemed to coincide with relatively relentless pressure from the internet to do exactly those things.
I get so conflicted with Southgate wanting him to do well and then remembering the stupid as feck things he has done. I think I hate the FA almost as much as the Glazers now, for their sheer ineptitude and gung-ho approach to trying to lock the fecker down. At least wait until after the final FFS.
* lose ‘open goal’ finals at home through sheer rabbit in the headlights level mis-management and paralysing management anxiety, turning Wembley into a morgue and watching players tire to exhaustion for 60 minutes and doing absolutely f all about it.
* not only puts TAA as a metronome midfielder in an actual tournament game - and then repeats the choice despite concrete evidence it’s a train wreck - and then! It’s a defecting train wreck agan!
* Has to be bullied by the entire media and fan base into making sensible choices like Mainoo in midfield and subbing off Kane when he has become the almost literal equivalent of a fecking traffic cone.
* Doesn’t take a left footed LB but does take about 7 left footed attackers
* Bemoans the loss of kelvin phillips after his stupid as feck TAA experiment, despite having literally a world class squad of players available.
He picked a good starting XI vs Netherlands and he even subbed off two of the undroppables to his merit. It won us the match, however, also seemed to coincide with relatively relentless pressure from the internet to do exactly those things.
I get so conflicted with Southgate wanting him to do well and then remembering the stupid as feck things he has done. I think I hate the FA almost as much as the Glazers now, for their sheer ineptitude and gung-ho approach to trying to lock the fecker down. At least wait until after the final FFS.
He might do well at a club that a) has one of - if not the best squads - in the competition. b) doesn’t have to play in any league, or if they do don’t mind being relegated.
Looking forward to the lengthy list!
If he wins this, I can easily see him being the next United Manager.
So you cant improve as a manager. Got it. Because he got relegated 16 years ago he cant do well in the premier league
No doubt we've had some luck with the draws, but he definitely can't win with some people.
Even when he did beat a ''good'' side in Germany a negative spin was put on it. That was a side with 8 Champions League winners who had beaten Portugal in the group stages. There have been plenty of worse German sides than that and the one we lost to in Euro 96 was far from an all time great tournament side, yet it didn't stop Venables being a national hero.
Let's see what happens on Sunday, but either way there's no guarantee we'll see a better England reign than this one any time soon.
Even when he did beat a ''good'' side in Germany a negative spin was put on it. That was a side with 8 Champions League winners who had beaten Portugal in the group stages. There have been plenty of worse German sides than that and the one we lost to in Euro 96 was far from an all time great tournament side, yet it didn't stop Venables being a national hero.
Let's see what happens on Sunday, but either way there's no guarantee we'll see a better England reign than this one any time soon.
You can't speak in vague terms and expect me to nod along as I've outlined why nobody would touch him from my perspective, and how the game has changed since he was doing so poorly the first go round. Even Mourinho and other defence-first coaches are struggling in the modern arena, and they can actually manage with tactical nous, even if a shadow of themselves.
In club football, Southgate doesn't get one of, if not the best squad in the competition to be timid with. And as I said the first go round, he never gets more that the sum of parts out of a team, so what is it you think he has about him, what niche or set of skills to cope in a considerably harsher environment than he experiences at the moment?
If you can give some objective reasons, it'll at least sound plausible. I genuinely want to know which club(s) in the PL you think he can enhance or do well with.
The conditions are worse for him now than then - you give him a Middlesbrough equivalent of that time to now, and he'll do worse.So you cant improve as a manager. Got it. Because he got relegated 16 years ago he cant do well in the premier league
What the feck even is that
Mourinho's main problem is the same as always - himself and his own attitude, falling out with players and the media. Southgate is nothing like him.
Sure. Give him a team that should get relegated and he might get relegated. Same with ETH and Emery. If Ancelotti went to a relegation scrap club instead of Everton he might have been down there too.
Big Sam might do better than all of them with a relegation scrapping team because he just does the basics and doesnt try to do anything clever and he has the experience they dont.
However given a team that is expected to be mid table or in the europa league places I'm sure he'll do that, now, not 16 years ago, with his current experience working with better players and learning as a manager.
Newcastle United that is.
Based on what exactly?
Nope, SJR only need look at Southgate‘s PL manager profile to realise he’s a non starter.
Has no one posted this?
Now that there is no risk of United hiring him for 2 years, I really want England to win the Euros.
Question for you all.
Gareth Southgate is sitting at his desk in his cardigan-cum-pyjamas, working on tactics, and the room is getting a bit dark. There are two lamps available. One is an ordinary lamp on his desk, the other is a lava lamp on the other side of the room. Which does he pick?
Gareth Southgate is sitting at his desk in his cardigan-cum-pyjamas, working on tactics, and the room is getting a bit dark. There are two lamps available. One is an ordinary lamp on his desk, the other is a lava lamp on the other side of the room. Which does he pick?
You give him far too much credit whilst being intentionally vague about what he excels at or even offers a club to have them want to employ him in the first place.
You're of course entitled to think whatever it is you do about him, but I don't see much presented to state why he'd be a sure thing as a performer in the PL.
Actually I do think he has improved as a manager, within this very tournament no less. The team selections have got better and better, and the in-game substitutions have followed a similar trajectory. What should set every alarm bell ringing - is that this happens to coincide with probably the two biggest factors the media and fans have been calling for, starting a midfielder who will knit together midfield (Mainoo), and sub off Kane once he has gone 100% traffic cone instead of the 60% he is a lot of the match. Also subbing off Foden because you have a subs bench full of young players that are brimming with confidence having had the season of their lives. So, in some ways it actually gives me LESS confidence in him tbh, because you start to think 'are you doing this due to pressure?' or because it was your idea? If it was your idea then why did you not do it at the start of the tournament?' As I said, alarm bells, RINGING.So you cant improve as a manager. Got it. Because he got relegated 16 years ago he cant do well in the premier league
Ha. I know that you know exactly what I mean by that. We can argue about it all day long and it won't change my mind. An aging Italy side that didn't qualify for the world cup either side of that final, up 1-0 in the first ten minutes, at home. That for me was an open goal. Likely a far easier match to manage than this upcoming final with Spain. Sorry if that offends you, just the way I see it. and I did put it in quotes tbf.
I do think Southgate is an incredible man-manager, dedicated, hard-working, committed etc. etc. At the end of the day though, so was Ole. Competent management shouldn't be relying on last-gasp heroics - time after time - in the draws we have had (too frequently to be a coincidence). People just tut and go 'Ah well, what can we do? That's just England. We always have to do it the hard way! *sigh*'. I say no, there's always logic behind it. Over the course of a league season, all those metrics that are good managers' bread and butter will be reflected in a points tally, and this is why Southgate wouldn't do well in a league. Because despite having arguably the best squad in the competition, the metrics are objectively bad. People will say, 'oh the finals are proof of good management. I say it's proof of excellent man-management, luck and (most of all) having amazing players that have scored goals all season long. Are we pulling those results out of the bag with Andy Carroll and Emile Heskey up front? Are we feck!!
Nevertheless, if Southgate continues to make good decisions, I will over time probably change my opinion of him. The Netherlands was a pretty good performance, and the subbing of Kane wasn't too late - I think I will lose my mind if I see the oppo midfield passing little triangles around him in the middle for another 45 minutes (could well, or even likely! happen vs Spain). But if he keeps setting up the team with ambition to win, I'm all on-board, with a particular wariness of the decisions GS has made in our history So, for now, the FA should hold off and do what any sensible organisation would do, a thorough assessment of the job he has done thus far, pouring over all metrics not just results. Unless of course, like the FA, you think the metrics aren't important because Bellingham will pull something out of the bag. Imo a silly, or some would say downright stupid approach over time.
When Southgate was linked to the job I remember Mark Goldbridge saying Dan Ashworth know each other really well and is good friends with Southgate that's why he was linked in the first place. Dan rated Southgate really highly. Even he does not win it I believe getting to 2 finals will be enough for him to get hired for the United job.
The thing about Southgate is that even he sees International football as a totally different discipline to club football. It's why he persists with some of the weird things he does that winds everyone up. As someone moderately pro-Southgate, I don't think there's any evidence he'd be a success in club football. And even if Gareth thinks could do it, I think he'd cheerfully agree that his international record doesn't prove anything about how he'd do in club football.
Something I think he probably could do a good job of, on the evidence we have, is picking up an underperforming group of players for 4 months and avoiding a PL relegation. Could see him being turned to when a club is on the skids, overperforming in saving them, being kept on, and then getting sacked halfway through the next season when it's about more than survival.
Something I think he probably could do a good job of, on the evidence we have, is picking up an underperforming group of players for 4 months and avoiding a PL relegation. Could see him being turned to when a club is on the skids, overperforming in saving them, being kept on, and then getting sacked halfway through the next season when it's about more than survival.
Yes. I think that would be a perfect fit. We will see.
Unfortunately he is busy with England for the next two years, after which you are welcome to have him to replace your baldy. It will be tough to see him going to Liverpool but we will cope.
So why didn’t Ashworth try to get him in at Newcastle? Or Brighton even?
It’s lazy journalism based on the fact they worked together when Ashworth was at the FA and all these links were made before Ashworth was in post and by terrible sources.