I remember there was a good bit of criticism on here over this. People generally felt that Gus was a much more intriguing and worthy villain than those Nazis and that lady who got ricin’d.
Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended
- Thread starter ha_rooney
- Start date
I remember there was a good bit of criticism on here over this. People generally felt that Gus was a much more intriguing and worthy villain than those Nazis and that lady who got ricin’d.
I’d have sooner seen Dany taken by Drogon to the children of the forest who stab her with dragon glass.
She wakes with blue eyes - a new Night Queen.... hellbent on revenge against men.
Bran being the Night King theory was pretty stupid, just doesn't make sense to me.
I still think the best ending would have been some nod to establish that Bran had been plotting this for a while and was a chaotic neutral character. It would make his plot line and him getting the throne far more credible, along with the decision of exiling Jon. The easiest way to hint of this is having received a message from Varys and watching him burn it in Winterfell, have Varys provide a throwaway comment to Tyrion about having worked with someone at Winterfell, you'd assume immediately it was Sansa because y'know she's been taught by Littlefinger but instead it was Bran, the lad nobody would suspect. I'd have loved that ending, it would have been a true GoT ending too.
I still think the best ending would have been some nod to establish that Bran had been plotting this for a while and was a chaotic neutral character. It would make his plot line and him getting the throne far more credible, along with the decision of exiling Jon. The easiest way to hint of this is having received a message from Varys and watching him burn it in Winterfell, have Varys provide a throwaway comment to Tyrion about having worked with someone at Winterfell, you'd assume immediately it was Sansa because y'know she's been taught by Littlefinger but instead it was Bran, the lad nobody would suspect. I'd have loved that ending, it would have been a true GoT ending too.
Think it would have made some sense if they had dropped some hints that the NK could live on through Brann. There seemed a weird connection between the two ever since he "touched" Brann. Would have been feasible enough that he had the power to convert him through that interaction.
I also like your alternative ending too, don't get me wrong.
The problem with the NK idea is that you have to believe the concept that two NKs were present in the world at the same time. The real NK and the NK inside Bran. Now the other alternative is that he's been cursed and it was the NKs way to have a lifeline incase he was killed, a bit like Voldermoort does with the horcruxes in Harry Potter. But the issue is that we had very little information about this being an option and therefore it requires a huge leap to come to that conclusion. Which fits well with Season 8s writing mind you. But personally, i'm not too fond of that concept, if there was further evidence thrown in during Season 7 and 8 then I could buy it, but I think the audience would be extremely pissed if the ending was everyone died.
I'd have liked the idea that Bran became this arrogant pantomath. He decides because he has all this knowledge that he takes it upon himself to manipulate events to get himself on or near the throne. The idea being that he thinks he knows better than everyone else because he has all this history stored in his head. A bit like the concept in Science Fiction when AIs decide to kill humans because they want to preserve life. This would be Bran deciding to manipulate people into the destruction of Westeros to get himself on the throne at the end. Thinking that he's the best person for the job to steer Westeros into a better future, which he may or may not do but his justification of doing so was entirely Evil. Sacrificing hundreds of thousands of people and exiling Jon Snow in the process.
That could of been a great end of episode fade to black. Not sure how Jon ends up as prisoner though given he was loyal till the end.
I would have liked Dany to have stabbed Jon as he betrays her, but he survives his wound and she doesn't. Would give a reason why there was no guards, she was lulling him in to kill him but thought he would never betray her. Another clue towards the mad queen.
The problem with the NK idea is that you have to believe the concept that two NKs were present in the world at the same time. The real NK and the NK inside Bran. Now the other alternative is that he's been cursed and it was the NKs way to have a lifeline incase he was killed, a bit like Voldermoort does with the horcruxes in Harry Potter. But the issue is that we had very little information about this being an option and therefore it requires a huge leap to come to that conclusion. Which fits well with Season 8s writing mind you. But personally, i'm not too fond of that concept, if there was further evidence thrown in during Season 7 and 8 then I could buy it, but I think the audience would be extremely pissed if the ending was everyone died.
I'd have liked the idea that Bran became this arrogant pantomath. He decides because he has all this knowledge that he takes it upon himself to manipulate events to get himself on or near the throne. The idea being that he thinks he knows better than everyone else because he has all this history stored in his head. A bit like the concept in Science Fiction when AIs decide to kill humans because they want to preserve life. This would be Bran deciding to manipulate people into the destruction of Westeros to get himself on the throne at the end. Thinking that he's the best person for the job to steer Westeros into a better future, which he may or may not do but his justification of doing so was entirely Evil. Sacrificing hundreds of thousands of people and exiling Jon Snow in the process.
Yeah exactly. They would have needed to give more hints that he was capable of doing this, without actually spelling it out to be obvious to the viewer that the NK lived on. Tricky one (I bet GRRM would pull it off if he wanted).
How do you look back at GoT now? Do you still view it as an overall brilliant show or did the last couple of seasons really sour your memories of it?
You're forgetting one thing. The ink is dry.The problem with the NK idea is that you have to believe the concept that two NKs were present in the world at the same time. The real NK and the NK inside Bran. Now the other alternative is that he's been cursed and it was the NKs way to have a lifeline incase he was killed, a bit like Voldermoort does with the horcruxes in Harry Potter. But the issue is that we had very little information about this being an option and therefore it requires a huge leap to come to that conclusion. Which fits well with Season 8s writing mind you. But personally, i'm not too fond of that concept, if there was further evidence thrown in during Season 7 and 8 then I could buy it, but I think the audience would be extremely pissed if the ending was everyone died.
I'd have liked the idea that Bran became this arrogant pantomath. He decides because he has all this knowledge that he takes it upon himself to manipulate events to get himself on or near the throne. The idea being that he thinks he knows better than everyone else because he has all this history stored in his head. A bit like the concept in Science Fiction when AIs decide to kill humans because they want to preserve life. This would be Bran deciding to manipulate people into the destruction of Westeros to get himself on the throne at the end. Thinking that he's the best person for the job to steer Westeros into a better future, which he may or may not do but his justification of doing so was entirely Evil. Sacrificing hundreds of thousands of people and exiling Jon Snow in the process.
And that deserves criticism in its own right. But they were hugely interesting (and horrible) characters. The poetic arc of a high school teacher rejection of social rules following a cancer scare, ends with a single-handed massacre against some truly evil people.
And I loved every second.
But in the last 2 seasons of Game of Thrones, they haven't bothered to introduce new characters.
And that's a large part of the reason why characters like Baelish and Varys, why their stories felt really boring in the end. For them to have an interesting story they would have had to introduce sub-characters just for them to interact with, and we would have had to see what they were up to.
Easily the most impactful moment of this season is when Arya is trying to save the woman and the girl from the dragon fire. Because the writers actually bothered to create new characters and let them speak, Arya had a significantly better scene.
Why was Danny so pissed off? Obviously, she lost Missandei and Jorah Mormont in quick succession - but was that it? Or maybe she had some trusted lieutenants in the Dothraki that were killed facing the undead? Maybe Cersei had sent part her Army up to destroy as much Danny's army as she could after the battle with the night king? Maybe we could see some of the manipulation Cersei had used to make the common folk hate Danny?
Bah Humbugs
It's a great show. I will probably rewatch seasons 1-4 a few more times. The ending has certainly tainted my impression like the ending of Lost did. But it won't stop me from ultimately enjoying the visuals, music and characters which were superb. I think part of the ultimate problem GoT had was the start of the show was so fecking good that it couldn't meet expectations for the final conclusion.
feck D&D though, I think a lot of people think that though.
Urgh, this shit is currently sitting on 50k upvotes on Reddit. I get that alot of people are pissed off with the last couple seasons, I certainly am, but dumb lazy posts like this getting so many supporters are a big problem.
I didn't think it was possible think less of a story than D&D have done, and then I saw this. Naturally the echo chamber are downvoting anyone that says this is a bad idea and two whole seasons of just The Night King and a whole season dedicated to the war with Cersei would need endless filler.
So what? Those could easily have been the main plotlines for 3 full series. We could have had plenty of side plots like we've always had in GoT to fill the rest of the time, whilst leaving plenty of time to properly set up hugely important events.
For example in S8 we could have had the fight against the White Walkers as they ravage the North, but at the same time we have Cersei consolidating her position in Westeros and seen gaining support, trying to build anti-dragon weapons, some of the Golden Company doing their thing etc. There's plenty the show writers could have done to fill the time, and whilst undeniably there would have been filler I'd prefer that over everything being incredibly rushed. It's definitely not a stupid idea.
I think the only change I'd make is to S10. Jon should always kill Daenerys immediately after she destroys Kings Landing, that decision makes sense for him because it's a crazy decision and he couldn't ignore it. What we could have had a season of is showing the aftermath of Dany's death and Westeros scrambling to sort itself out, the battles to stop a crazed Unsullied/Dothraki army led by Greyworm thirsty for revenge, that kind of thing. Far better than skipping to some weird, unrealistic council scenes where everyone just shrugs and agrees to appoint Bran as King.
We got many seasons in GoT out of big events like the War of the Five Kings, with other smaller plotlines filling the rest of the time, and scenes like Tywin/Arya for quality character development. Entire conflicts never ended in the space of an episode or two, there were lots of episodes where the enemy were on their way and the other side had to plan and talk, and these were still very enjoyable. Heck, we started off S8 in this vein, the only issue was D&D seemingly didn't realise they were running out of time.
I never really got the Bran = NK theory - but having watched this video (3:00) I have to say it makes as good a story as anything else.The problem with the NK idea is that you have to believe the concept that two NKs were present in the world at the same time. The real NK and the NK inside Bran. Now the other alternative is that he's been cursed and it was the NKs way to have a lifeline incase he was killed, a bit like Voldermoort does with the horcruxes in Harry Potter. But the issue is that we had very little information about this being an option and therefore it requires a huge leap to come to that conclusion. Which fits well with Season 8s writing mind you. But personally, i'm not too fond of that concept, if there was further evidence thrown in during Season 7 and 8 then I could buy it, but I think the audience would be extremely pissed if the ending was everyone died.
I'd have liked the idea that Bran became this arrogant pantomath. He decides because he has all this knowledge that he takes it upon himself to manipulate events to get himself on or near the throne. The idea being that he thinks he knows better than everyone else because he has all this history stored in his head. A bit like the concept in Science Fiction when AIs decide to kill humans because they want to preserve life. This would be Bran deciding to manipulate people into the destruction of Westeros to get himself on the throne at the end. Thinking that he's the best person for the job to steer Westeros into a better future, which he may or may not do but his justification of doing so was entirely Evil. Sacrificing hundreds of thousands of people and exiling Jon Snow in the process.
I would make it go something like this
1) Bran cannot see into the future, past the Battle of Winterfell. Therefore he thinks they are going to lose the battle.
2) In desperation, Bran wargs back to when the Night King is created to try and stop that from happening. (But the Ink is dry)
In fact he wargs into the human that becomes the Night King himself
3) Exhausted from Warging so far, he can't wake up/warg back.
4) He begs those weird half creatures not to create him but they gag him and do it anyway
5) Warging Bran becomes the Night King
6+)
Current day Bran is stuck warging into the past and can't wake up. This is why the Night King is so drawn to Bran. This is why the Night King has the same abilities as Bran. The Night King doesn't want to kill Bran at all, he's waited thousands of years to take him.
Then you could have had a really creepy moment where John kills the Night King, but none of the dead are destroyed. Instead, Bran (still with eyes rolled back in Warg form) stands up and walks towards Arya. He opens his eyes and they are bright blue like the NK. Then Arya has to kill Bran and finally the undead are defeated.
Yeah there is no way that Jon Snow just waves away what Daenerys did and then decides a year later to kill her. It should always be an impulse decision for Jon to take her out having just burned down Kings Landing. Doesn't mean Jon has to be the one to kill her mind but if they were going with that idea then Jon had to do it straight after Kings Landing.
The only way Jon may have not killed her is if Daenerys immediately realised what she did and broke down, Jon may not have killed her in that scenario. Then you could have had further strive down the road when she threatens to do it again to perhaps Winterfell and Jon realises that it wasn't just a one off and thats who she is now.
The only way Jon may have not killed her is if Daenerys immediately realised what she did and broke down, Jon may not have killed her in that scenario. Then you could have had further strive down the road when she threatens to do it again to perhaps Winterfell and Jon realises that it wasn't just a one off and thats who she is now.
I never really got the Bran = NK theory - but having watched this video (3:00) I have to say it makes as good a story as anything else.
I would make it go something like this
1) Bran cannot see into the future, past the Battle of Winterfell. Therefore he thinks they are going to lose the battle.
2) In desperation, Bran wargs back to when the Night King is created to try and stop that from happening. (But the Ink is dry)
In fact he wargs into the human that becomes the Night King himself
3) Exhausted from Warging so far, he can't wake up/warg back.
4) He begs those weird half creatures not to create him but they gag him and do it anyway
5) Warging Bran becomes the Night King
6+)
Current day Bran is stuck warging into the past and can't wake up. This is why the Night King is so drawn to Bran. This is why the Night King has the same abilities as Bran. The Night King doesn't want to kill Bran at all, he's waited thousands of years to take him.
Then you could have had a really creepy moment where John kills the Night King, but none of the dead are destroyed. Instead, Bran (still with eyes rolled back in Warg form) stands up and walks towards Arya. He opens his eyes and they are bright blue like the NK. Then Arya has to kill Bran and finally the undead are defeated.
But if you kill the NK then why doesn't present day Bran also die? His mind went back in time and possessed the Night King and became lost so when you eventually kill the NK you also kill Brans mind. So it either frees Bran from his Warg state and becomes Bran again. Or by killing the NK and therefore Brans mind, present day crippled Bran just goes into brain damage mode. I don't see the leap of how the NK transfers his mind into crippled Bran.
edit: I guess it's because Brans Mind has been corrupted and turned Evil when the Children covert man into NK. So when man body is destroyed, it's just the body thats destroyed not the mind which gets transferred back to Brans crippled body. But crippled Bran isn't actually dead, thats where I feel the theory gets a bit warped, as original NK was killed hence why he's the master of death.
Wankers.
But with better writing, there is no way Danny would have destroyed Kings Landing like that. It just doesn't make sense.
If we look at real-world parallels, there have been bombing raids since WW1, but I think the most poignant parallel is that of Hiroshima and Nagoski. Was it right to kill all those civilians, to finally stop 5 years of war?
The North/Danny alliance fight a huge, terrible war with the Night King. They are pushed back and lose much of the North. Cersei finally commits to helping them, and together (with a lot of luck) they defeat the Night King.
Cersei immediately betrays the short peace and butchers much of the North/Danny force the moment the Night King is defeated. A long slow war ensues, with Danny pushing Cersei back (she has a dragon) but Cersei has several victories (her forces are fresher, control the food supplies and are greater in number).
Cersei is pushed back to Kings Landing. In the west, her allies are holding Dannys forces at bay in Casterly Rock and the surrounding areas. Cersei looks to do a deal with the Martells who have had a change of leader. She promises them new lands in exchange for aid. Danny's Northern Allies hanker for a return home. They want to rebuild their destroyed homes.
Tyrion has been convincing Danny to hold her dragon back slightly. Cersei has taken to surrounding her forces with civilians; women and children. As news arrives of the Martells forces approaching from the South, Dannys armies are again defeated and she realises that Tyrion has been loosing battles because he is weak hearted. At the same time, Missandei is captured, raped and killed. Danny makes the decision to end the war for good. If she had done this 6 months ago, Missandei would still be alive...
She uses her dragon to destroy the red keep and many other areas of Kings Landing. Then she destroys the army that sits outside, despite the women and children camped with them. Dannys army easily walks into Kings Landing (raping and pillaging as they go). The war is over, and all it cost was a few thousand more children burned to death...
True, they could have gone down numerous different routes. Daenerys going full Mad Queen as ruler could easily have been spread across an entire season, as she increasingly makes more drastic and tyrannical decisions.
But with the material D&D were given (let's assume in the books Dany does burn KL and the major decisions are the same) they could still have done a lot more.
agreed
Honestly as someone who did actually enjoy S6E3 (after turning the fecking brightness up) I implore everyone who watches it again to count the amount of times they cut away from a hero who is seemingly about to die and then return to them somehow being OK.They do the same trick like 100 times.
They should’ve went back to where the children of the forest made the Knight’s King as a last stand, and tied it back in to why the Starks are so important from a magical perspective. That tree, wherever it was, as a last stand. Then Bran becoming king makes sense.
Not sure what you do with Cersei as a villain in that case. Maybe she trips and hits her head running down the stairs because Qyburn blew up his sex doll.
Not sure what you do with Cersei as a villain in that case. Maybe she trips and hits her head running down the stairs because Qyburn blew up his sex doll.
I
I think they ended it correctly in the regard the ruler is picked or earned in the final minutes of the final espisode.
Thats what it was all about. It was the correct place/time to call it quits, the just rushed getting there.
Im in agreement in was 3 separate storylines and deserved 3 series, even 5 or 6 episodes each.
The world vs the night king
Dany and the north vs cersi
The aftermath of dany going mad, someone killing her and picking a new leader
I dont think it would have been right to have any film on the eventual ruler.
I think they ended it correctly in the regard the ruler is picked or earned in the final minutes of the final espisode.
Thats what it was all about. It was the correct place/time to call it quits, the just rushed getting there.
Im in agreement in was 3 separate storylines and deserved 3 series, even 5 or 6 episodes each.
The world vs the night king
Dany and the north vs cersi
The aftermath of dany going mad, someone killing her and picking a new leader
Honestly
So much fanfiction out there which is much better than the lazy writing we actually got.
Maybe. I don't think a season dedicated to Dany as a tyrannical ruler and the reaction to that would have been too bad.
But I'd also have been comfortable with Daenerys dying but them showing the aftermath/chaos, as I said earlier a Greyworm led Unsullied/Dothraki army causing hell after the death of a woman they basically worshipped would have been interesting.
Basically anything at all instead of having her killed and then just skipping to people sat round talking.
Bran becoming king in the way he did becomes more and more stupid the more you think about it. Instead of making the realm stable all the major lords are basically now encouraged to stab each in the back because whenever the king dies instead of getting punished by his successor, they might actually be that successor. Like, the incentive for scheming has never been greater. Especially when you've got a king who it's guaranteed won't produce any heirs. Think of someone like Bronn.
Like...if one of the major lords turn around and tell him to feck off and that they're independent or that they won't listen to him, where's his authority to say no? He's already granted one kingdom independence. And by all accounts he doesn't have an army that's loyal to him. His Hand is the main lord in a region that was decimated by Daenerys. And his own family can't really be seen to jump in and help him if things turn to shite...because they're now an independent kingdom, which would make them foreign invaders if they did so. Meaning the main potential source of Bran's military authority comes from a foreign kingdom.
Like...if one of the major lords turn around and tell him to feck off and that they're independent or that they won't listen to him, where's his authority to say no? He's already granted one kingdom independence. And by all accounts he doesn't have an army that's loyal to him. His Hand is the main lord in a region that was decimated by Daenerys. And his own family can't really be seen to jump in and help him if things turn to shite...because they're now an independent kingdom, which would make them foreign invaders if they did so. Meaning the main potential source of Bran's military authority comes from a foreign kingdom.
It'd have been alright if they'd still had an expanded cast which allowed for political scheming and lots of machinations. The problem was though that they basically cut most of the kingdoms out of the show. So Cersei, for example, didn't get many scenes in KL this season because there's no real tension or anything for her to work against...because she's got essentially three allies who are on her side, and there's no one else around.
Compare that to Season One. You've got various political factions all vying for power and plotting against each other. You've got everyday problems to consider...finance and debt, the smallfolk pouring in and out of the city, potential unrest if they starve etc. By the later seasons that's all gone which means someone like Cersei can basically do what she wants with impunity.
Yeah D&D basically streamlined everything to a few major characters/Houses and made everything else irrelevant. Even places like Dorne ended up with just a random generic guy as representation because they fecked up that part of the story so horrendously.
Cersei facing zero backlash after killing a number of important Lords/Ladies of Westeros in the most important religious site in the country, as well as eliminating a hugely popular religious figure and his followers sums up the decline of the show, actions no longer had consequences. Anything to further the plot even if it makes no logical sense.
It's incredibly stupid on so many levels, the best thing is to not even try and think about it because there's no way you can possibly actually justify it.
He's a random crippled Stark kid, why the feck would Dorne and the Iron Islands (just as two major examples) even pledge their allegiance to him? They swore fealty to Daenerys, a Stark just killed her.
The only logical ending to the show (with the way D&D portrayed it) is that Westeros would splinter in to independent Kingdoms. Nobody after Daenerys held enough individual power to unite the country and nobody had good enough relationships with other Houses to do it diplomatically. But no, we get some cheesy, ridiculous scene which goes against everything the show set up for so many seasons, and everyone is just happy to bow to Bran the Broken even if they've never met him once and he has the charisma of a potted plant because he's basically this emotionless, creepy void.
And then yeah, he has no army to speak of, who is even enforcing the peace? The Unsullied/Dothraki are gone, the Northern host has buggered off North, the Lannister/Golden Company forces got exterminated along with the City Watch. Bronn is just going to rock up at the Reach and declare himself Lord of the wealthiest and most populous remaining Kingdom, and all the minor Lords are just gunna roll with that because Southern nobility will love being dictated to by a crippled Northern kid and a common cutthroat.
It's all stupid when you think about it for even a minute. All of it is hastily cobbled together in about five minutes with no thought whatsoever, and it absolutely sucks balls. I mean Bran becoming King in the first place happened because Tyrion (who was a prisoner) told them it was a good idea, after a long speech .. right after he was immediately told to shut up by Greyworm, who then let him talk. It's so fecking stupid
It's great with one slight problem, why would the Night King have the symbols littered everywhere if it was his major weakness? I also don't buy Cersei telling Jaime that she wasn't ever pregnant. I think her having a miscarriage and then barely even registering it like she did with Tommens weakness, perhaps even calling the baby weak would have work better.
My thoughts on the last ep:
An average ep to end an average season.
Jon went from The Invincible to Wenger Out in the space of an ad break. All he had to say was "she went somewhere with the dragon, she'll be back. I'm the Captain now".
Dany, all powerful woman, dies because she loves the dick too much ffs. They made such a big deal about Jon being her biggest threat, yet she drops her guard so quickly.
Sansa is a cnut.
Arya will get spin off. Funny when she says "I know a killer when I see one" towards Dany. Yes, we all just saw her destroy a city
And the 3-eyed raver is king hahaha. Every other Kingdom will be sharpening their knives. Bran the broken will know they're about to attack but say feck all to his men. Once they're all destroyed, he'll say "I knew that was gonna happen". fecking Captain Hindsight.
He's saying Seasons 7 & 8 for the Night King plot. Maybe it's because I've still got The Walking Dead on my mind but after two seasons of the battle with a certain bad guy it felt way too contrived. Besides, if the war against the Army of the Dead lasts two whole seasons then there's only one outcome there and that's The Night King wins. Even if Jon defeats him there's going to be no one left at that point.
Personally I would have preferred Season 7 to stay the mess it was, Season 8 is the Night King and Season 9 being Cersei/Dany conquest. Tens a nice number but I can't see what would fit into it.
Bran turns into an evil mad king who breaks everyone's legs after hearing Bran the Broken one too many times?
Aye, I don't think you need that much time for the Night King either. Granted they walked around and didn't really do much for 5 Seasons, but that seems to have been more because they were trying to build up an army slowly and finding it difficult to find the Wildlings rather than the Night King being slow at marching.
The obvious objective is to take Kings Landing. Win that and they win the war. But to do that they'd need to fight through the North and then head past the Twins and march on Kings Landing. Ultimately that should be a maximum of 2 battles (Winterfell and Kings Landing) and a possible fake out at Twins. 10 episodes would sort that don't think you'd need 2 whole seasons, the build up would be too long.
Doesn't the three eyed raven live for a bunch of centuries? How long was the previous one in that tree? And isn't Brann supposed to "create" a successor? Or with the death of the NK all that went out the window?
Little finger killed bran, littlefinger is wearing brand face. Littlefinger is king.
I would have preferred the Kings Landing / game of thrones stuff to have come first, then an absolute bloodbath of a battle with the NK to round the series off.
The more I think about it the more I feel they underplayed the NK a bit in the end.
The more I think about it the more I feel they underplayed the NK a bit in the end.
It’s because really the NK is a boring character. He can’t speak. He doesn’t offer any personality.
They needed to get past him.
They needed to improve him. I have never been as disappointed by a villain as I was with him. All that hype, and he turned out to be your typical CGI bad guy. What a waste.