Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

This is my opinion on the latest episode. It contains spoilers.

I think the way they took Kings Landing and then ruined it, killing loads of people inside for revenge was actually a great way to tell the story. It was realistic (not the dragons, the carnage). In the olden days this sort of thing happened regularly (still does today to some extent). There was nobody to stop these mighty rulers exacting revenge and spreading fear. Fear was a useful way to control an alien population. It might not be how we the viewer want it to happen because it doesn't fit the good guy/bad guy simpleton narrative, but it was the way battles played out.
 
UweBein said:
The books start to fade with book number 4 and book number 5 is really bad at times. Some pieces in there could be integrated in a soap opera straight away. Books 6 and 7 will be a disaster, IMO.
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Exactly the books get worse as they go on yet people just blame the TV show for everything
 
Shamana said:
I guess, I just find it more believable when characters make the wrong decisions based on otherwise good reasoning. It just seems that every major character in GOT has become dumb or much rumber than usual.

I don't really understand why she'd be a hated foreign ruler. All the the major houses in westeros despite Cersei and the lannisters because of their actions. It's been shown before that the people of KL hates Cersei.

Maybe Dany and Jon could spread the word that without her help the whole world would have been wiped out by the others.

Also the Targs are not really foreign. They ruled Westeros for hundreds of year. Dany still has the support of the North, The reach, the riverlands, some of the greyjoys, the storm lands, the eerie and Dorne.

There is no good reason why she couldn't become a loved ruler if she simply ruled in a compassionate, wise and just way.
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I don't disagree that those things are logical but that was pushed through Tyrion and Varys.

Is there no room for emotion in story telling? This is not the first emotive act in game of thrones nearly every plot point has been an emotive decision. Her whole reason for taking the throne is emotional not logical an it didn't start as a means to free the oppressed.

I get people not liking the choice of direction i just can't see how people can say they don't see it the path to it. The absence of an obvious event showing her snapping isn't lazy writing its viewers wanting to be hand held. All a matter of opinion but one event causing someone to snap would be way worse for me.
 
Shamana said:
I guess, I just find it more believable when characters make the wrong decisions based on otherwise good reasoning. It just seems that every major character in GOT has become dumb or much rumber than usual..
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Not just seems, it is a point. They are 'dumber' cos of plot points / ending point. In previous seasons its easier to write a story and let it develop naturally, based on how characters act and their journey.

The problem with dictating when its going to end (without the roadmap already) is that you then need to add in points and find a way to get there (and they did that but it has a rush job or things missing or characters doing stuff they normally wouldnt do).
Varys, LF and Tyrion are examples of people whos actions are dictated by the endgame (cos it was set) rather than their actions dictating where the story goes next (logically).
 
This is my guess on how it ends but I have a feeling I'm overthinking this by a long distance...

I think Dany kills Jon via dragonfire and is left to "rule over a graveyard" as Jon said she would. How we get to that scenario, I don't know. Arya would volunteer to kill her but I think dumb honourable bastard Jon would be like "Let me talk to her" or something.

I think Jenny's Song that Pod sang at the end of episode 2 might foreshadow a bit, although that's open to interpretation and I'm aware I'm reaching a bit!

High in the halls of the kings who are gone
Jenny would dance with her ghosts
The ones she had lost and the ones she had found
And the ones who had loved her the most

The halls of the Kings who are gone. The throne room.

Jenny Dany would dance with her ghosts, the ones she had lost (Viserion, Rhaegal, Jorah, Missandei, Drogo?) the ones she had found (I dunno about that. The people still living, Tyrion?) and the ones who had loved her the most (Jon).

The ones who'd been gone for so very long
She couldn't remember their names
They spun her around on the damp old stones
Spun away all her sorrow and pain

I got nothing...

They danced through the day
And into the night through the snow that swept through the hall
From winter to summer then winter again
'Til the walls did crumble and fall

And into the night through the snow that swept through the hall. Dany's vision of the throne room?

'Til the walls did crumble and fall. King's Landing and the Red Keep is more or less rubble now.

The ending is Dany broken and alone in the half demolished throne room with Westeros at the mercy of her sanity. Suitably bleak.

The quality has dropped but I'll still miss the show hugely and the mad theories.
 
Smores said:
I don't disagree that those things are logical but that was pushed through Tyrion and Varys.

Is there no room for emotion in story telling? This is not the first emotive act in game of thrones nearly every plot point has been an emotive decision. Her whole reason for taking the throne is emotional not logical an it didn't start as a means to free the oppressed.

I get people not liking the choice of direction i just can't see how people can say they don't see it the path to it. The absence of an obvious event showing her snapping isn't lazy writing its viewers wanting to be hand held. All a matter of opinion but one event causing someone to snap would be way worse for me.
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I guess the reason we didn't have these discussions before the book material ran out is simply that the writing was better and more coherent.

Ned was beheaded in the game of thrones because he was Northern lord with strong ideals in truth, justice. honor and lack of experience dealing with the poisoneus politics of the South.

Robb made the wrong the decision to marry Talisa, because he was young and in love, cocky because of his victories and because he felt it dishonerable to bed a girl without marrying her. His decision to behead the Karstak lord was also based on his northern sense of justice and honor.

Catelyn made her screwy decision to release Jaime because she was grieving for her children.

Tywin did not feel guilt for arranging the red wedding, because like he said, a few dosen killed at a wedding ended the war.

Jon broke his oath as Lord commander of the watch because he was taunted by ramsey and could no longer be idle while his family was being tortured and murdered.

The trigger point for Dany becoming the great mass murderer and psychopath in westors history was when the bells rang, the enemy surrendered and the war was won. She still had ample oppourtunity to catch Cersei and give a slow horrible just death.
 
HTG said:
Then just show it through her actions. Not that hard.
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I thought it looked rather fitting, but I suppose this has to do with the fact that you think it's offensive in some way. Which is your right. I disagree.

Seeing as I don't like the anecdotal argument that mentall illness runs in my family. Here's an excerpt of a case study for recognizing mental illnes.

I. General Description

A. Appearance 1. Dress and Grooming. You may find the person's appearance to be average, meticulous, slightly unkempt, or disheveled. The person may have body odor, no makeup, makeup that is skillfully applied, or garish makeup.
• Meticulous: The appearance is perfect, unusually so.
• Skillfully applied: The person is made up [skillfully].
• Garish: The person looks outlandish.
• Self-neglect: Always indicate when you think this is present. It involves such things as having body odor or looking disheveled and unkempt. Dress would be dirty, stained, or rumpled. This can be a sign of a mental illness such as depression or schizophrenia.
• Dress: You may find it casual, business, fashionable, unconventional, immaculate, neat, stained, dirty, rumpled.
• Immaculate: This means the person is [very] neat.
• Unconventional: Use this term to refer to clothes that are inappropriate to the setting.
• Fashionable: This is fine unless the per

Case in point, my bi-polar sister, who looks extremely disheveled when she's going through a bad period.
 
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Irwin99 said:
From a character perspective if they had ended the season with the fight against the white walkers they could have tied up virtually every character loose end by the necessity of them participating in the battle to save all life in the seven kingdoms. The major issue (aside from the poor writing) is that this and last season had the number of total episodes reduced by 3 or 4 episodes and they've just been trying to cram it all in to the narrative in a desperate rush. As a result everything seems all over the place. An event that draws all the characters together could have helped make it seem more coherent and you'd still have time for betrayals and score settling, perhaps whilst the fight against the ultimate threat is going on.
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I rather suspect that dealing with the WWs first was a deliberate thematic decision (either by the writers or Martin) to end the show on the idea that people are their own worst enemy (as opposed to some external existential threat). It's something they touch on in the conversation between Davos & Tyrion after the battle in winterfell.

In which case I don't blame them for going this route if that's the ultimate "point" of the show, at least in relation to the WW threat.
 
Regarding Jon Snow's future:
Another reason I am quite sure he will die is that he's an oathbreaker, having sworn himself to celibacy and the Night's Watch and broken those oaths. We see clearly with Robb Stark that the gods of Westeros don't give two flying fecks about how honourable your intentions may be. If you break their rules, they will feck you up. But really, oathbreaking -> punishment is a recurring theme all over the place.

The red god had his back as long as the Others were in need of defeating. He's out of the game now. With the logic the story has followed on these themes, Jon Snow is basically precluded from getting any sort of happy ending. Besides the fact that he's basically an undead Fire Wight whose purpose has already been served.
 
Looking at some of the annoying / idiotic things from the previous seasons, The catching the wight and Euron battleship taking out the second dragon still annoys me most (more so the latter cos they had more time for that). Could you imagine if there were different scenarios put forward and that actually was the best of about five they came up with?
*unless it was like that poochie scene in simpsons when GRRM goes to the D&D, think of a way the dragon is killed, like eurons ship take it out expertly and arent seen, but something better.
D&D: you ok with that idea? Yeah *burns dollars to smoke cigars*

The cersei not taking out Tyrion and Dany and all doesnt bother me as much (but they could have added a line where Euron tells her to do it, and Cersei states its a bad idea as they have no sight of the other dragon*

I mean its not the best, but it at least gives a halfassed reason why she doesnt do it (but not too bothered)

B20 said:
Regarding Jon Snow's future:
Another reason I am quite sure he will die is that he's an oathbreaker, having sworn himself to celibacy and the Night's Watch and broken those oaths. We see clearly with Robb Stark that the gods of Westeros don't give two flying fecks about how honourable your intentions may be. If you break their rules, they will feck you up. But really, oathbreaking -> punishment is a recurring theme all over the place.

The red god had his back as long as the Others were in need of defeating. He's out of the game now. With the logic the story has followed on these themes, Jon Snow is basically precluded from getting any sort of happy ending. Besides the fact that he's basically an undead Fire Wight whose purpose has already been served.
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Technicality though, his watch ended the day he died. When he got brought back (second life) he was no longer part of the watch.
 
sullydnl said:
I rather suspect that dealing with the WWs first was a deliberate thematic decision (either by the writers or Martin) to end the show on the idea that people are their own worst enemy (as opposed to some external existential threat). It's something they touch on in the conversation between Davos & Tyrion after the battle in winterfell.

In which case I don't blame them for going this route if that's the ultimate "point" of the show, at least in relation to the WW threat.
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I, personally, think that's such a terrible route to go down though. We all know that story.

But reading the books, through all my joking, my point about his writing still stands. He never had any kind of world view, he just created an alternative because he love medieval times. Where the food was raw, and the women you could take.

There's no actual social commentary here.
 
Sylar said:
Looking at some of the annoying / idiotic things from the previous seasons, The catching the wight and Euron battleship taking out the second dragon still annoys me most (more so the latter cos they had more time for that). Could you imagine if there were different scenarios put forward and that actually was the best of about five they came up with?
*unless it was like that poochie scene in simpsons when GRRM goes to the D&D, think of a way the dragon is killed, like eurons ship take it out expertly and arent seen, but something better.
D&D: you ok with that idea? Yeah *burns dollars to smoke cigars*

The cersei not taking out Tyrion and Dany and all doesnt bother me as much (but they could have added a line where Euron tells her to do it, and Cersei states its a bad idea as they have no sight of the other dragon*

I mean its not the best, but it at least gives a halfassed reason why she doesnt do it (but not too bothered)



Technicality though, his watch ended the day he died. When he got brought back (second life) he was no longer part of the watch.
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Wasn't the dragon sitting behind them on a rock in the scene?
 
Redlambs said:
There's no actual social commentary here.
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Have to disagree, whatever his limitations as a writer he’s clearly trying to portray the horrors of medieval warfare and life in general for the common man, and the amoral world of the elites who inflict it on them.
 
Shamana said:
I guess the reason we didn't have these discussions before the book material ran out is simply that the writing was better and more coherent.

Ned was beheaded in the game of thrones because he was Northern lord with strong ideals in truth, justice. honor and lack of experience dealing with the poisoneus politics of the South.

Robb made the wrong the decision to marry Talisa, because he was young and in love, cocky because of his victories and because he felt it dishonerable to bed a girl without marrying her. His decision to behead the Karstak lord was also based on his northern sense of justice and honor.

Catelyn made her screwy decision to release Jaime because she was grieving for her children.

Tywin did not feel guilt for arranging the red wedding, because like he said, a few dosen killed at a wedding ended the war.

Jon broke his oath as Lord commander of the watch because he was taunted by ramsey and could no longer be idle while his family was being tortured and murdered.

The trigger point for Dany becoming the great mass murderer and psychopath in westors history was when the bells rang, the enemy surrendered and the war was won. She still had ample oppourtunity to catch Cersei and give a slow horrible just death.
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I'd argue the trigger was her being stripped of her destiny as the rightful ruler. Before then she was angry and lashed out at those who disobeyed her but it was the loss of control over her destiny that made her dark. When she absolves herself of the blame for killing Varys that was dark, i actually think if they'd had her kill Tyrion people would accept the descent more.

The bells was just a dramatic turning point to give the viewer a will she won't she moment through the eyes of Tyrion.

I think most of the characters are very caricatured as your list above shows and if you picked her theme prior to the last episode would it really be a force of peace?
 
2cents said:
Have to disagree, whatever his limitations as a writer he’s clearly trying to portray the horrors of medieval warfare and life in general for the common man, and the amoral world of the elites who inflict it on them.
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Is he though?

I mean, you could do all that by writing the story without Dragons and Ice Kings that die before the end.
 
KirkDuyt said:
Wasn't the dragon sitting behind them on a rock in the scene?
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Yeah it was. And thats something they shouldnt have had. Drogon not in sight (but heard) can save on the cgi for it, but keeps Cerseis army on its toes (and doesnt reveal all cards to cersei). Basically gives her a reason not to even think about taking them out cos of the possibility nobody gets out alive.
 
Redlambs said:
Is he though?

I mean, you could do all that by writing the story without Dragons and Ice Kings that die before the end.
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Course he is, just read through Arya’s chapters in the second and third books and Brienne’s in the fourth. Septon Meribald’s Broken Man speech is all about the impact of warfare and the decisions of the Lords on the common man, and it’s often regarded as Martin’s finest piece of writing.

It’s clearly not all he’s doing with the books, but it’s probably the major theme running through them.
 
it would've been way better if Euron never killed Rhaegal with those stupid scorpion things, and he was there when they attacked the city. Then a scorpion she missed or something after they surrendered takes Rhaegal out and that's the point where she goes nuts, as opposed to just when she hears some fecking bells.
 
I understand that and if that's the case then that's fine but with the way the show has been written it feels like they can't tie the threads together without either forgetting character arcs (Euron vs Yara and/or Theon seemed to be a set up from season 6) or rushing everything completely (Dany's descent into absolute madness). A final battle concerning absolutely everyone in the story could have theoretcally tied things together in a better way....or just doing what they've done with this season but with more episodes and better plot development. Season 7 should have been much better too in laying the groundwork for the end season.
 
2cents said:
Course he is, just read through Arya’s chapters in the second and third books and Brienne’s in the fourth. Septon Meribald’s Broken Man speech is all about the impact of warfare and the decisions of the Lords on the common man, and it’s often regarded as Martin’s finest piece of writing.

It’s clearly not all he’s doing with the books, but it’s probably the major theme running through them.
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But yeah, by social commentary I thought we were talking about the usual "mankind is shit!" thing.

Of course he nails the brutality of war, I personally love that part. But I stand by the exact point I made, He loves medieval times and all the food and sex and fighting stuff. He isn't making some grand point about mankind at all.
 
Redlambs said:
But yeah, by social commentary I thought we were talking about the usual "mankind is shit!" thing.

Of course he nails the brutality of war, I personally love that part. But I stand by the exact point I made, He loves medieval times and all the food and sex and fighting stuff. He isn't making some grand point about mankind at all.
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Fair enough, I read it a bit differently.
 
Massive Spanner said:
it would've been way better if Euron never killed Rhaegal with those stupid scorpion things, and he was there when they attacked the city. Then a scorpion she missed or something after they surrendered takes Rhaegal out and that's the point where she goes nuts, as opposed to just when she hears some fecking bells.
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Yeah im agreeing with this. And they could have made it obvious that the dragon with Dany on top guiding is the reason it can avoid (she learnt from after Bron took her down last season)
Whereas make a big deal about Rhaegal being hurt from long night episode but still going on. They could still do their trip last episode where Rhaegal gets hit with one and retreats and Dany (and drogon go after it). Leaves the ships still vulnerable for the attack and Missandei still gets captured.

Then in the last epi, losing her child there adds to the misery and the bells still send her OTT.

Again not perfect, but still gets to the same points that need to be covered in the episodes. Oh well.
 
Redlambs said:
You seem to have a specific point HTG, air it.

I'm sure I'm going to agree with you, but I don't think makeup is the problem there.
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The second she was crazy, they stopped showing her as a pretty woman. There is just no positive interpretation of that fact for me. It's sexist.
 
2cents said:
Fair enough, I read it a bit differently.
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Well let's see how it ends then, if it ever does.

Because he clearly wrote a fantasy novel, and his own interests play a part. I'd love to think the WW's are some symbol to show us how we are our own worst enemy, I was always expecting that. However, it seems rather likely that however sad it is, the ending isn't really about showing how bad humans are, just about an ending at all.
 
RedSky said:
Slightly annoyed nostril flaring Daenerys is certainly more sexy than normal Daenerys.
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Why are you annoyed? That's natural!

Don't make me put you in the sexist corner with this HTC dude...


Massive Spanner said:
I mean, it's pretty difficult for Emilia Clarke to not look beautiful.
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She's hideous without makeup. Haven't you heard?
 
Shamana said:
I've never understood the strategy between Dany and her advisors. It always seems to revolve around Dany wanting to burn down the city vs laying siege for find a peaceful solution.

Dany did the totally pragmatic thing before she went Hitler. She used her Dragon to take out their defenses and enemy's key points, so her and her dragon and her army could take out the enemy. And it worked, when they surrendered no or little civilians died or were hurt. But no because she didn't get laid and Misssandei died in a war, she decides to slowly and deliberately burn every civilian in the city alive.

It's just such bad writing for a character who is aware of her fathers madness and is conscious of not becoming like him and being a just ruler. Even if people of westeros don't love her, maybe they actually would if she governed in just and generous way. And Her and Jon could marry since she needs a child to produce an heir.
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That Dany could take the wrong path was a possibility that had been obvious for a long time. Her actions (starting with her brother's death) were not always of an honest, good-natured intention. In Essos she proved that she has no problem spilling the blood of (innocent) people. Even when she left Winterfell, the quick victory was more important to her than the well-being of her own people. By this time at the latest, her priorities had clearly shifted. Something which made Vary sway his opinion. Again, that was a clear hint that Dany was not to be trusted.

Her complete focus on the throne alone can be seen as a sign of a madness. She has clearly proclaimed that no one may stand between her and the Iron Throne.

In the last episodes she had to fight more and more with disappointments. She felt increasingly betrayed and distrusted people who actually meant well. These are clear signs of paranoia.

She also lost important companions and a second dragon. These are all triggers that can pave the way or even reinforce a negative development of her personality (which she was carrying in her genes, already).

Her development reminds me of that of her brother and also that of her father. So you can't blame the authors for Dany suddenly going crazy. There were enough ambiguous hints, which laid the foundation for her going berserk.
 
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