Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

VP89 said:
I haven't read the books, I've just watched a YouTube video explaining the stuff that happened before season one with the Mad King.

Can you refresh my understanding? Was the wildfire a last resort for the Mad King? Or did he have time to have a proper battle against the rebellion.

But yeah in either scenario she's worse.
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The TV show kept it vague. This scene but from Jaimes words, he tells us that the Mad King got paranoid and hid caches of wildfire throughout the city. But if you look at it from the Mad Kings point of view, he was proved right. The Lannisters betrayed him, so he ordered the Wildfire to be lit to destroy the Lannisters who were sacking Kings Landing, naturally it would have also resulted in thousands of people dying as well. It was a last ditch act of defiance and rage to stop those who betrayed him. The very people who Jaime himself says were 'loyal to the crown'.
 
sullydnl said:
@RedSky You're arguing that there was nothing wrong with Dany burning the two POWs alive, despite the show explicitly showing us Tyrion, Varys, Sam and Jon all thinking that there was (and that it was a sign of her potential for terrible behaviour). You're not supposed to still think that was okay or part of what is acceptable in war time as the show has gone out of its way to highlight that it wasn't. If you weren't already on board with that realisation then it's hardly a surprise that you're at odds with the show moving further in that direction. Morally speaking you were already giving Dany more credit than she deserved prior to this.
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They were given two choices. To accept her as Queen and when that failed to take the black. They didn't submit to either.

As for Jon, he's also hanged people before, a kid no less. He's not the role model on how to execute people who defy him. Those that betrayed Jon could have been imprisoned as Tyrion/Varys suggested they do with the Tarlys. The only difference is Daenerys burnt them rather than hanging them.
 
VP89 said:
I haven't read the books, I've just watched a YouTube video explaining the stuff that happened before season one with the Mad King.

Can you refresh my understanding? Was the wildfire a last resort for the Mad King? Or did he have time to have a proper battle against the rebellion.

But yeah in either scenario she's worse.
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Long story short, yes there were battles, the king was already going nuts then having his son killed in battle sent him over the edge and he wanted to burn the city with the rebellious forces inside. He'd had reserves of wildfire throughout the city that were to be ignited. That's when Jamie ran him through.
 
Eboue said:
She wasnt open to the wall
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If I remember correctly it was on of her advisers (Tyrion perhaps) who suggested they might go to the wall, but Tarly senior said feck that before Dany could respond.


Still I think "swear fealty or meet death" was a perfectly reasonable position in the GoT world and Stannis burned plenty of people, too. It's proof of her character getting harder and perhaps a bit cruel (to traitors), but not madness. Others only interpreted it as such, because D&D needed that for their mad queen narrative.
 
I enjoyed this episode as a spectacle, but the writing as everyone says is sloppy.

Dany won the battle without breaking sweat despite the show making a point of showing that the forces were more or less equal. .

Why did Bran insist on Jon being told his true heritage if he's more or less omniscient and can see this lays seeds for Dany becoming paranoid and a civil war. Surely he can see Dany burning the city?

Rhaegal being killed easily and Drogon being invulnerable.

I honestly don't find Dany's U turn into becoming a mass murdering psychopath believable. When the bells rang and the city surrended it could have made sense for her to fly at the red keep and burn Cersie alive. Just slowly and surely burning all soldiers, civilians and their children alive and burning every building in Kings Landing makes no sense what so ever. The show relies more on forced surprises rather than good writing.

Dany excatly because of her history and knowing her fathers flaws would never turn this batshit psycho because the city surrendered?

Jon and Tyrion are morons, but that is nothing new. Brann is moron too for someone omniscient.

Arya killing Dany would be a bit much since she's killed the NK
 
The episode was not as bad as I feared it would be. The scenes between Jaime and Tyrion and Jaime and Cersei were a bittersweet reminder of just how good the writing and character arcs have been in this show.

I don't like how telegraphed Daenerys' descent into madness was. They didn't stretch it out enough to make it plausible that she went from freer of slaves albeit with a gradually growing proclivity to darkness into the wanton burning to death of children. D&D went for the shock value and overkill by making her outright massacre civilians out of sheer madness. The way they did it jarred far too much with her prior character development.

And, as usual, the show decided to return to a narrative that it had only just abandoned in the prior episode by deciding that actually, after all, dragons are pretty fecking powerful and hard to kill.

What a shite character Euron was and what a shite and meaningless battle he had with Jaime. I don't have a problem with Jaime returning to Cersei, which I've seen a lot of people complain about, in fact that was in my view entirely congruous with the development of his character. Their death was underwhelming for such pivotal characters but I liked the way they humanised Cersei again as she accepted her fate.

The nucleus of what is a fantastic TV show remains but it is mainly as a spectacle that I enjoy it rather than something deeper, which is what it used to be. There's not the same emotional investment I used to have in it. The Hound battling the Mountain, for instance, was a good watch and a fitting conclusion to the characters but my emotions were very 'meh' throughout it.
 
RedSky said:
They were given two choices. To accept her as Queen and when that failed to take the black. They didn't submit to either.

As for Jon, he's also hanged people before, a kid no less. He's not the role model on how to execute people who defy him. Those that betrayed Jon could have been imprisoned as Tyrion/Varys suggested they do with the Tarlys.
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Something Jon brings up and Sam immediately dismisses by pointing out that he also literally spared thousands of people who refused to kneel.

In fact they also had Tyrion make the exact argument you're making right after she burned them alive, before having Varys immediately dismiss that argument and compare his attempts to defend it directly to his attempts to distance himself from the mad king's actions. "What could she do?" "Not burn him alive alongside his son?" Pretty straightforward.

The show doesn't intend for this to be something you agree with Dany on. They've lined up a load of morally "right" characters to dissaprove of it. There's not a lot they can do if you stick to her side of the argument in spite of this.
 
The Jaime/Cersie resolution was just so bizarre and unsatisfactory. She sent an assassin to kill him and their brother, she is a monster so there is no point in trying to 'humanise' her. Having him go back to her and instead saying something like 'you tried to kill me, my brother, you slept with Lancel when i was away, you drove Tommen to suicide etc.' would have been more fitting, and him murdering his 'dark side' would have been a redemption of sorts. Remember in series 4 when Joffrey mocks him for being a 40 year old knight who has done no great deeds? jaime replies 'there's still time your grace'. Well, he didn't really do much else other than fight in the north.
 

Jorah was one of the only people who could make Dany understand that she was going too far. She never seemed to have a conscience to inhibit her worst of her excesses. She just doesn't seem to see that what she plans to do is wrong or going too far.
 
RedTiger said:
Everyone in Essos loves her and adores her, that keeps her humanity in check. Once she came to Westeros, she realised that the only stories that made it over the sea was her dragons and her slaughter of the masters.

Everything was about Westeros, her marrying a savage, eating a horse's heart and watching her favourite subjects die (dragons and humans), just to have the continent not love her but distrust and fear her... That fecked her up.
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A bad reputation shouldn't turn a slave liberator into a lunatic this easily.
 
Sanche7 said:
The writing is all over the place, they don't even know what the feck they are doing. Cersei who is probably the most vile and evil character gets an ending where fans should feel sorry for her but Dany who has struggled so much and done so much good over the last 7 seasons is now a fecking monster
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You felt sorry for Cersei? I didn't.
 
sullydnl said:
Something Jon brings up and Sam immediately dismisses by pointing out that he also literally spared thousands of people who refused to kneel.
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Can you remind me when this happened? If you're referring to the Wildlings then I think Sams argument is ridiculous. He didn't spare them at all, they were all fighting a common enemy and Jon was the first one to really understand that outside of the Wildlings. He wasn't even King of the North at that point either, just the Commander of the Nights Watch. He went to rescue them less about kindness and more to do with self preservation.
 
sullydnl said:
@RedSky You're arguing that there was nothing wrong with Dany burning the two POWs alive, despite the show explicitly showing us Tyrion, Varys, Sam and Jon all thinking that there was (and that it was a sign of her potential for terrible behaviour). You're not supposed to still think that was okay or part of what is acceptable in war time as the show has gone out of its way to highlight that it wasn't by having a load of morally "right" characters disapprove of it. If you weren't already on board with that realisation then it's hardly a surprise that you're at odds with the show moving further in that direction. Morally speaking you were already giving Dany more credit than she deserved prior to this.
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What Daenerys did was not 'moving further in the direction', it was jumping a thousand fecking miles in that direction. A thousand miles which the past episodes did not do enough to establish as plausible, at least in my view. I'd have fully accepted that in order to get to Cersei she would have without much fuss slaughtered civilians, and deserved all the condemnation that that brings with it, and she'd still have to deal with the same fallout and revulsion from the likes of Jon and Tyrion as she will in the final episode. What she did in this episode seemed to me more like lazy writing, a decision simply to have her go mad and kill everyone to try and score some shock value points.
 
Fully Fledged said:
Jorah was one of the only people who could make Dany understand that she was going too far. She never seemed to have a conscience to inhibit her worst of her excesses. She just doesn't seem to see that what she plans to do is wrong or going too far.
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Yup, feel I've been watching a different show to those dismayed by this character turn.

Throughout the show she's displayed a vicious streak (eg, nailing those blokes up in that slave city) that's been tempered by words from her advisers that kept her balanced. Now this season she's lost all of them - Jorah killed, Missandei beheaded and Varys executed after his betrayal. Tyrion's still there but he also betrayed her with his actions.

It's been shown she feels like a fish out of water these days and with the loss of all those she trusted (including the man she loves) it makes perfect sense to me she'd give in to her worst impulses.

Fun episode overall. Best of the season for me.
 
I'm struggling to see how people think killing commanders/leaders in wartime isn't too far away from demolishing and killing thousands of people in a large city.

As BobbyManc said, it's a huge fecking jump. There's no action inbetween.
 
Irwin99 said:
The Jaime/Cersie resolution was just so bizarre and unsatisfactory. She sent an assassin to kill him and their brother, she is a monster so there is no point in trying to 'humanise' her. Having him go back to her and instead saying something like 'you tried to kill me, my brother, you slept with Lancel when i was away, you drove Tommen to suicide etc.' would have been more fitting, and him murdering his 'dark side' would have been a redemption of sorts. Remember in series 4 when Joffrey mocks him for being a 40 year old knight who has done no great deeds? jaime replies 'there's still time your grace'. Well, he didn't really do much else other than fight in the north.
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Yeah I thought that was a really poor tie up too.

For me it should have been Jaime surprising the audience and killing cersei when he saw her, albeit as painlessly and lovingly as he could. Then they could have showed a gripping scene of him looking for exits, seeing he is caved in and accepting his death as the building collapses on him.

His arc would be complete, he'd have buried the hate and slayed the evil queen without anyone knowing it.
 
RedSky said:
I'm struggling to see how people think killing commanders/leaders in wartime isn't too far away from demolishing and killing thousands of people in a large city.

As BobbyManc said, it's a huge fecking jump. There's no action inbetween.
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I think you're reading the kings actions wrong and whoever has been making the point about the show using the characters to indicate which actions are acceptable is correct. Several houses started a rebellion because of what the mad king did, it wasnt just some wartime thing.
 
RedSky said:
Can you remind me when this happened? If you're referring to the Wildlings then I think Sams argument is ridiculous. He didn't spare them at all, they were all fighting a common enemy and Jon was the first one to really understand that outside of the Wildlings. He wasn't even King of the North at that point either, just the Commander of the Nights Watch. He went to rescue them less about kindness and more to do with self preservation.
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When he said it? First episode of this season in the crypts. Even if you think his point was stupid, the fact is the show expects you to be on his side of the argument.

Check out the below scene. They directly link her decision to burn those two alive to the mad king before saying she won't end up like that if she listens to her advisors (who are now either dead or whom she doesn't trust).

Obviously there's still a leap to killing civillians (one that I certainly agree feels rushed because of the shorter series structure) but that leap always had to be made at some point. All the show could do prior to that is establish that she was pushing at the very edge of what was okay.

 
Eboue said:
I think you're reading the kings actions wrong and whoever has been making the point about the show using the characters to indicate which actions are acceptable is correct. Several houses started a rebellion because of what the mad king did, it wasnt just some wartime thing.
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The mad king wanted to kill all male Starks and the heir to house Baratheon out of pure paranoia. That's a mile off of executing a traitorous commander after offering to spare him in return for the customary pledge of fealty.
 
do.ob said:
The mad king wanted to kill all male Starks and the heir to house Baratheon out of pure paranoia. That's a mile off of executing a traitorous commander after offering to spare him in return for the customary pledge of fealty.
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Redsky is saying what Daenerys did is worse than the mad king. You're saying what the mad king did is worse. I'm saying they're both similar actions for people who've gone mad.
 
Donk87 said:
Yup, feel I've been watching a different show to those dismayed by this character turn.

Throughout the show she's displayed a vicious streak (eg, nailing those blokes up in that slave city) that's been tempered by words from her advisers that kept her balanced. Now this season she's lost all of them - Jorah killed, Missandei beheaded and Varys executed after his betrayal. Tyrion's still there but he also betrayed her with his actions.

It's been shown she feels like a fish out of water these days and with the loss of all those she trusted (including the man she loves) it makes perfect sense to me she'd give in to her worst impulses.

Fun episode overall. Best of the season for me.
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It was an excellent episode for me. I didn't have any of the nitpicks that I could have had with the other episodes. I've totally enjoyed this season so far. Far better than the last season.
 
This was an awesome episode ..... if it was say episode 9 of 10. It was still entertaining and shocking but would have been far more impactful with more build up leading up to it.

Dany’s descent into madness, is a great twist to the story and sets up the final nicely. However I think if the season was built around this set piece with the main story following Dany’s fall from grace with Jon, Tyrion etc slowly losing questioning their loyalty to her. Jon’s lineage could have them played a greater part as opposed to what feels like the fastest game of Chinese whispers that got out of hand very quickly.
 
Eboue said:
Redsky is saying what Daenerys did is worse than the mad king. You're saying what the mad king did is worse. I'm saying they're both similar actions for people who've gone mad.
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But they weren't. The Tarlys commited the crime of treason, their deaths were just, even if they were carried out with a dragon, it was perhaps a bit cruel, but it wasn't mad.
Aerys killing two Starks in some sadistic game of torture and then demanding the heads of Ned and Robert for good measure wasn't just. That actually was crazy.
 
Ok, so this is quite possibly one of my favourite episodes of the past few seasons. There were faults, of course, but this seemed like the writers basically flipping the table over sand saying “feck it". And i got time for that.

It was chaotic, it was bold, and i’m going to embrace it. They absolutely knew that this episode would split the fan base in half and i got a lot of respect for that. Yeah, they could’ve had Dany back down when the bells rung, Tyrion gives her a smile, Arya kills Cerise and everyone would be happy. But they didn’t. And i love that they made that choice.

The series up until this point has been so underwhelming and disappointing, but this was not that. I can absolutely see why many would dislike it, but i loved it. If you’re gonna turn the dial up, then turn it up all the fecking way. I also buy Dany going slightly mad. I think they’ve done a decent job of that, and credit to Emilia Clarke who’s been really good this season. It’s not as if it came out of absolutely nowhere.

She has shown tendencies throughout the show by almost taking pleasure in watching people burn to death and executing them. Not to mention losing two dragons (basically her children), Missandei getting her head chopped off, but not before giving Dany permission to burn the place down, and everyone basically going against her. I bought it.

One thing though. The Euron and Jamie fight was terrible, which is probably a suitable ending for Euron as he was easily one of the worst characters in the show. So, yeah, that bit was bad.
 
Fully Fledged said:

Jorah was one of the only people who could make Dany understand that she was going too far. She never seemed to have a conscience to inhibit her worst of her excesses. She just doesn't seem to see that what she plans to do is wrong or going too far.
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Yeah her character turn is not that absurd as people are making out, imo. People are acting like it came out of absolutely nowhere.
 
BobbyManc said:
The episode was not as bad as I feared it would be. The scenes between Jaime and Tyrion and Jaime and Cersei were a bittersweet reminder of just how good the writing and character arcs have been in this show.

I don't like how telegraphed Daenerys' descent into madness was. They didn't stretch it out enough to make it plausible that she went from freer of slaves albeit with a gradually growing proclivity to darkness into the wanton burning to death of children. D&D went for the shock value and overkill by making her outright massacre civilians out of sheer madness. The way they did it jarred far too much with her prior character development.

And, as usual, the show decided to return to a narrative that it had only just abandoned in the prior episode by deciding that actually, after all, dragons are pretty fecking powerful and hard to kill.

What a shite character Euron was and what a shite and meaningless battle he had with Jaime. I don't have a problem with Jaime returning to Cersei, which I've seen a lot of people complain about, in fact that was in my view entirely congruous with the development of his character. Their death was underwhelming for such pivotal characters but I liked the way they humanised Cersei again as she accepted her fate.

The nucleus of what is a fantastic TV show remains but it is mainly as a spectacle that I enjoy it rather than something deeper, which is what it used to be. There's not the same emotional investment I used to have in it. The Hound battling the Mountain, for instance, was a good watch and a fitting conclusion to the characters but my emotions were very 'meh' throughout it.
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Easily the worst part of the episode. It was just so meaningless and such a waste of time. And that little quip at the end "i killed jamie lannister" or whatever he's said was terrible. Loved the rest of the episode though personally.
 
do.ob said:
But they weren't. The Tarlys commited the crime of treason, their deaths were just, even if they were carried out with a dragon, it was perhaps a bit cruel, but it wasn't mad.
Aerys killing two Starks in some sadistic game of torture and then demanding the heads of Ned and Robert for good measure wasn't just. That actually was crazy.
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No they didn't Cersei was the reigning queen with her butt on the Iron Throne. Olenna Tyrell practised treason against their current queen. The Tarly's just wouldn't follow her in to treason.
 
sullydnl said:
She's gone mad. You can't expect her actions to still be in line with her character up to now. If it was then she wouldn't be mad, she be making her usual somewhat justifable decisions.
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Great character development. She is just mad now and can do anything irrespective of motivation or logic.
 
Fully Fledged said:
No they didn't Cersei was the reigning queen with her butt on the Iron Throne. Olenna Tyrell practised treason against their current queen. The Tarly's just wouldn't follow her in to treason.
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What is treason and who is a traitor depends entirely on which authority is judging you. Danearys styles herself as the rightful ruler of Westeros, so whoever doesn't bend the knee to her is a traitor under her law.
 
harms said:
Jamie's plot was very good, one of the best on the show. In life people are prone to relapsing, the fact that Jaime was on the way to redeem himself doesn't mean that he was not conflicted anymore — and he loved Cersei for all of his life. When he helped the realm of men, he felt that the love for Cersei (and their unborn child) is stronger than his feeling of righteousness or honour. So this "but what was the point of his story if he came back to Cersei" criticism is just weird.
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Agreed. Only criticism I disagree with. If anything Jamie fighting at Winterfell made little sense. Even cersie return arc was made worse by him hooking up with Brienne immediately before that.
 
crappycraperson said:
Great character development. She is just mad now and can do anything irrespective of motivation or logic.
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Exactly. The Mad King was actually mad, in the more maniacal connotation of the word. He lost a logical connection with reality.

Dany was just mad. The angry type. There's no link to insanity because even her most cruel reactions that were curtailed up to this point were logical.
 
crappycraperson said:
Great character development. She is just mad now and can do anything irrespective of motivation or logic.
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Well no, she can't do anything. She can do something she repeatedly threatened to do though. Especially when she's done terrible things in the past.

The "protagonist goes mad and becomes the antagonist" twist doesn't work if the things she does as the antagonist is entirely in keeping with her actions as the protagonist. There has to be a break with her previous characterisation. Else nothing has actually happened.
 
kouroux said:
Probably the best episode for me despite the numerous stupid shit going on. The visuals of King's Landing being obliterated were very nice.
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The production level has never been anything but the absolute best for any HBO show.
 
RedSky said:
We got all that in half a fecking episode. Half a fecking episode for 8 years of build up of a character. A few lines of dialogue and suddenly she's flipped into a child burning monster. I said this whole thing would be rushed and hoped they wouldn't go down this route as they wouldn't do it justice.
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Just like the war versus was rushed, the resolution of this conflict is too. All the menacing scorpions all around KL were destroyed this easily now ?
 
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