Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

[Snowjoe]

To be honest i just posted that mainly for the gif. Just thought it was cool. As for the Mary Sue angle, i assume the author of that tweet is getting at the fact that she "earned" her moment as opposed to having it gifted to her. Also, Arya isn't a Mary Sue.

It’s definitely cool, sorry if it came across as a jibe at you I was speaking more about the guy in the tweets!

Agree about Arya too, although I’m not sure how well the show has managed to get her training across, but that could just be my hazy memory honestly.

 

[BusbyMalone]

So i've watched the episode again and i haven't really changed my mind on it. Still don't think it was a great episode and was probably the worst battle of the show so far.

I also didn't like the part with Tyrion and Sansa in the crypt. It was actually one of the few emotional moments in the episode and did have an impact on me as they were setting it up for at least one of them to bow out at that moment, only to go and say "nah, only joking", which is what they basically did throughout the whole episode.

 

[Redlambs]

Also, Arya isn't a Mary Sue.

She is literally the definition of the original Mary Sue.

That shouldn't be a bad thing, but sadly it is.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It’s definitely cool, sorry if it came across as a jibe at you I was speaking more about the guy in the tweets!

Agree about Arya too, although I’m not sure how well the show has managed to get her training across, but that could just be my hazy memory honestly.

She's had more on camera training than all the other characters put together. First of all by the Spanish dude who taught her sword fighting/dancing, then by the creepy "a man does stuff" fella when she got seven bells knocked out of her with the big stick. She's definitely been built up as someone who is a serious bad ass.

 

[Gehrman]

I liked the Arya twist when I first saw it but I'm appreciating it even more on second view. A sneaky assassin's attack was probably the only way you could beat the NK and she's the only one that could have done it.

On a side note, it amazes me that Dany gets such abuse by fans when Jon Snow is more one dimensional . He's the worst military commander ever and although the circumstances surrounding his character always change, he remains always the same person.

Aye he's pretty crap. I thought Robb was a far better character and the actor was superb too. Jon has become the hero with all brawns and no brains. He gets his army slaughtered at every oppurtunity, because he has no brains and decides to take on entire enemy army himself, which leads to his men having to save him and get killed in the process.


He also more or less got one of Dany's dragons killed thereby making his enemy boss neight invincible.


Also his choice not to remain neutral, when discussing a ceasefire with Cersei. He himself had stated that the real war was against the White Walkers, the only that mattered and yet he refuses to withdraw from the game of thrones thereby giving Cersei absolutely no good reason to a agree to a ceasefire.


He also betrayed his vows with the Night Watch, when he wanted to intervene in the political war and was rightfully a traitor to the Watch despite being Lord Commander.


Brave brave warrior, but a complet idiot as a leader.

 

[BusbyMalone]

It’s definitely cool, sorry if it came across as a jibe at you I was speaking more about the guy in the tweets!

Agree about Arya too, although I’m not sure how well the show has managed to get her training across, but that could just be my hazy memory honestly.

Nah that's cool. It's all good!

As for Arya, i think they've done a decent job portraying her as this killer assassin throughout the past few seasons. My only problem with some of the set up of all that stuff was during season 5 when she first started. It was just such a drag that i lost all interest in it; it was just moving at such a snails pace. And she's been my favourite character throughout the show, so that was a shame. But i think they recovered well with that.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Ok, grand. Don’t really care about the books. As far as the tv series goes it makes sense that the whole thing is all about who ends up on the throne.

Not only that the beauty of the show was that it's not some high fantasy good verses evil but more like The War of the Roses with extra political intrigue.
I'm not knocking High Fantasy as I love that genre as well but this came across as different.

 

[ivaldo]

It’s definitely cool, sorry if it came across as a jibe at you I was speaking more about the guy in the tweets!

Agree about Arya too, although I’m not sure how well the show has managed to get her training across, but that could just be my hazy memory honestly.

She spent season 6 training while blind.

 

[stepic]

Aye he's pretty crap. I thought Robb was a far better character and the actor was superb too. Jon has become the hero with all brawns and no brains. He gets his army slaughtered at every oppurtunity, because he has no brains and decides to take on entire enemy army himself, which leads to his men having to save him and get killed in the process.


He also more or less got one of Dany's dragons killed thereby making his enemy boss neight invincible.


Also his choice not to remain neutral, when discussing a ceasefire with Cersei. He himself had stated that the real war was against the White Walkers, the only that mattered and yet he refuses to withdraw from the game of thrones thereby giving Cersei absolutely no good reason to a agree to a ceasefire.


He also betrayed his vows with the Night Watch, when he wanted to intervene in the political war and was rightfully a traitor to the Watch despite being Lord Commander.


Brave brave warrior, but a complet idiot as a leader.

yeah, which is why he should die. he's shit at playing the game.

 

[Gehrman]

She is literally the definition of the original Mary Sue.

That shouldn't be a bad thing, but sadly it is.

Not really. She's gone trough plenty of hardship and trials to become that badass she is now. A real Mary Sue is Rey from Star Wars. Rey is literally better than everyone and everything for absolutely no reason. She's a better pilot of the Falcon than Han Solo, now's how to repair it when he doesnt and she instantly becomes a Jedi Master from a 20 second traning session with Luke whom she also pisses all over.

And obviously she's good looking and has a Heart of gold.

 

[BusbyMalone]

She is literally the definition of the original Mary Sue.

That shouldn't be a bad thing, but sadly it is.

Perhaps we just have different interpretations of what a Mary Sue is, but i don't see her as that at all. She not some perfect, idealised character; far from it. I just don't get the Mary Sue angle that people are throwing at her.

Again, perhaps we just differ on the meaning. I don't know.

 

[kouroux]

Not really. She's gone trough plenty of hardship and trials to become that badass she is now. A real Mary Sue is Rey from Star Wars. Rey is literally better than everyone and everything for absolutely no reason. She's a better pilot of the Falcon than Han Solo, now's how to repair it when he doesnt and she instantly becomes a Jedi Master from a 20 second traning session with Luke whom she also pisses all over.

And obviously she's good looking and has a Heart of gold.

I would agree with that. In terms of character development, Arya is badass.
Part of me wishes to have seen the N.K on the brink of chopping Jon Snow's head and her saving the day

 

[NoLogo]

The more I think about it, the show has pretty much gone to shit since D&D where on their own in terms of writing and couldn't rely on GRRMs books anymore. So finish up your books GRRM so I can finally get a good story arc here.

 

[Snowjoe]

She's had more on camera training than all the other characters put together. First of all by the Spanish dude who taught her sword fighting/dancing, then by the creepy "a man does stuff" fella when she got seven bells knocked out of her with the big stick. She's definitely been built up as someone who is a serious bad ass.

Nah that's cool. It's all good!

As for Arya, i think they've done a decent job portraying her as this killer assassin throughout the past few seasons. My only problem with some of the set up of all that stuff was during season 5 when she first started. It was just such a drag that i lost all interest in it; it was just moving at such a snails pace. And she's been my favourite character throughout the show, so that was a shame. But i think they recovered well with that.

She spent season 6 training while blind.

I know she’s had plenty of on screen training time but just for me it feels like she’s taken such a huge jump in power. But again my memory is a bit hazy as I haven’t rewatched the older stuff in a while so that probably the likely reason I feel that way.

Not that it bothers me mind, I’m more than happy to see fantasy people run around doing cool shit.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

I think Grey Worm survived - lucky bastard.



I thought they'd go for the pouring oil/something flammable over the walls when they were climbing them and then setting them on fire that way (ala Vikings)... would have made for a great visual if nothing else.




Onion man's mine... delighted he's still going strong. That man really knows where to stand during a battle.

I would stand beside Ghost the entire time. We'd probably both die because I would be feeding him chicken pieces and scratching behind his ears all the time.

 

[Fully Fledged]

The Mary-Sue quip is so dumb. We've spent seven seasons watching Arya train to be the best assassin in the show for feck sake.

Exactly.

On the point of her getting in unnoticed. Does anyone think that Jon saw her trying to sneak past Viserion and stood up and shouted to distract him?

 

[CassiusClaymore]

She is literally the definition of the original Mary Sue.

That shouldn't be a bad thing, but sadly it is.

Bollocks. She's the most competently trained fighter/assassin in the show.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Exactly.

On the point of her getting in unnoticed. Does anyone think that Jon saw her trying to sneak past Viserion and stood up and shouted to distract him?

On that note, I'm expecting Jon to swan in when everyone is lofting Arya over their heads in celebration before he shouts "Hey guys! Guess who killed an ice dragon by shouting at it?! That's right boyos, this cnut right here!"

 

[Gehrman]

I would agree with that. In terms of character development, Arya is badass.
Part of me wishes to have seen the N.K on the brink of chopping Jon Snow's head and her saving the day

Me too. It would have been better to have a prolonged battle or duel between Jon and the Nightking with Jon being absolutely stomped and then having Arya jump out of nowwhere and deal the killing blow. The way he died just felt too Quick and too sudden.

 

[Wibble]

Why is everyone debating what happened? I think too many people play games. We know what happened by watching what happened. Just as we will for the next 3 episodes.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Bollocks. She's the most competently trained fighter/assassin in the show.

She's the most competently trained assassin.

But not the most competently trained fighter. Or at least she shouldn't be, she spent what? A matter of a few years training with weapons?

Most of the main fighters in the show (Jon, the Hound, Jaime, Brienne etc) would have spent their entire lives with sword in hand, training hours per day.

She was clearly the MvP in terms of someone with the ability to kill the Night King though, because nobody could beat him 1on1 in a straight fight, needed to be a sneaky little shit.

 

[Redlambs]

Not really. She's gone trough plenty of hardship and trials to become that badass she is now. A real Mary Sue is Rey from Star Wars. Rey is literally better than everyone and everything for absolutely no reason. She's a better pilot of the Falcon than Han Solo, now's how to repair it when he doesnt and she instantly becomes a Jedi Master from a 20 second traning session with Luke whom she also pisses all over.

And obviously she's good looking and has a Heart of gold.

No. Rey is a Mary sue in that she's what people who use that term nowadays think of one and so justify the difference.

Perhaps we just have different interpretations of what a Mary Sue is, but i don't see her as that at all. She not some perfect, idealised character; far from it. I just don't get the Mary Sue angle that people are throwing at her.

Again, perhaps we just differ on the meaning. I don't know.

Mary Sue was a 15 yo character that worked her way up to the point where she saved the day and upstaged the main hero. That's Arya to a tee



If people want to call Rey a 'Mary Sue' in the modern meaning then fine, be that way. But also you have to call Arya and any number of characters one too. That's my point, it shouldn't be a bad thing and at least if people think it is, they should know the origins and why stuffy arsehole men decided it was.

Bollocks. She's the most competently trained fighter/assassin in the show.

Mary Sue was competently trained too. You have the wrong end of the stick here bud

 

[Gehrman]

I know she’s had plenty of on screen training time but just for me it feels like she’s taken such a huge jump in power. But again my memory is a bit hazy as I haven’t rewatched the older stuff in a while so that probably the likely reason I feel that way.

Not that it bothers me mind, I’m more than happy to see fantasy people run around doing cool shit.

Apart from the Night king she's probably the most powerful person in the series in terms of battle ability. The faceless generally are the most deadly in that World apart from dragons maybe, because their magic grants them limitless stealth combined with deadly ability. They could easily kill all Kings and lords of that World if they wanted too.

Which is why it's going to weird why Arya doesn't just sneak into Kings Landing using a mask and kill Cersei.

 

[GhastlyHun]

Bollocks. She's the most competently trained fighter/assassin in the show.

Fighter? Absolutely not. Basically all the sers including Brienne and the Hound have had more training and, importantly, more experience in actual battle. Assassin? Yes. But the style of the assassins who trained her is not invisibly running up to a dude and then stabbing them.

 

[ivaldo]

Bollocks. She's the most competently trained fighter/assassin in the show.

Yeah, her entire journey to this point has been about her developing into the mistress of death. From Syrio training her, to roaming the country side with The Hound, to joining the Faceless Men and being trained to be an assassin while blind.

 

[Minimalist]

I just found all the "Arya is a Mary Sue and this is feminist propaganda" threads on reddit.

God I love the internet.

Should see the amount of long pointless text posts on the r/asioaf subreddit. Looks like hundreds of neckbeards just had to have their own personal say/discussion regarding DnD ruining their life with that episode (instead of just adding a comment to the usual discussion threads). Genuinely cringeworthy shit thinking these are grown men (and I assume some women).

 

[Massive Spanner]

Fighter? Absolutely not. Basically all the sers including Brienne and the Hound have had more training and, importantly, more experience in actual battle. Assassin? Yes. But the style of the assassins who trained her is not invisibly running up to a dude and then stabbing them.

She didn't invisibly run up, she used the spear thing Gendry gave her to pole-vault over the white walker's and then run along the shoulders of the wights and then jump on to the Night King, it's quite clear because back in season one Syrio WaterMelon teaches her how to pole-vault and then Jaqen Hodor in season five shows her how to hop around on small rocks (aka shoulders!).

Fecking hell people are so dumb. Why do I have to explain these obvious things.

 

[KirkDuyt]

"A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience, and usually are able through some means to upstage the main protagonist of an established fictional setting, such as by saving the hero."

So, this is the "official" definition of a Mary Sue. With that established, I think it's easy to see whether she qualifies.

1. A seemingly perfect character. I think it's quite easy to agree that Arya is not a perfect character. She's done plenty of questionable, cruel or dumb shite during the course of the show.
2. Wish fulfillment. I dunno, who's wish is it that a little girl kills the night king? Even if people do wish it, it's because of her character arc, not her age / sex / whatever.
3. Perform better tasks than should be possible due to training etc. At some point I wished they would cool it with the endless fecking Arya training to be a good fighter montages. If anything, she's had too much on screen training.
4. Upstaging the main protagonist. Who is the main protagonist? I thought it was Ned, than Robb, maybe Danaerys? I suppose you could say she upstaged Jon? Jon is a daft cnut who knows nothing though, so who cares.

The only valid Mary Sue complaint would've been Sam killing the night king.

 

[GhastlyHun]

She didn't invisibly run up, she used the spear thing Gendry gave her to pole-vault over the white walker's and then run along the shoulders of the wights and then jump on to the Night King, it's quite clear because back in season one Syrio WaterMelon teaches her how to pole-vault and then Jaqen Hodor in season five shows her how to hop around on small rocks (aka shoulders!).

Fecking hell people are so dumb. Why do I have to explain these obvious things.

That's the best stupid explanation yet, I give you that

 

[CassiusClaymore]

On that note, I'm expecting Jon to swan in when everyone is lofting Arya over their heads in celebration before he shouts "Hey guys! Guess who killed an ice dragon by shouting at it?! That's right boyos, this cnut right here!"

She didn't invisibly run up, she used the spear thing Gendry gave her to pole-vault over the white walker's and then run along the shoulders of the wights and then jump on to the Night King, it's quite clear because back in season one Syrio WaterMelon teaches her how to pole-vault and then Jaqen Hodor in season five shows her how to hop around on small rocks (aka shoulders!).

Fecking hell people are so dumb. Why do I have to explain these obvious things.

You must have the brightness dialled way up on your tv mate. Did you see this happen or is this what you imagined happened?

 

[Minimalist]

The more I think about it, the show has pretty much gone to shit since D&D where on their own in terms of writing and couldn't rely on GRRMs books anymore. So finish up your books GRRM so I can finally get a good story arc here.

Maybe should look over his last two books before assuming his version will any more enjoyable. Least the show cut out most of the pointless waffle Martin added in.

 

[kps88]

She is literally the definition of the original Mary Sue.

That shouldn't be a bad thing, but sadly it is.

Not sure what definition you're basing that on as the term can include a lot of things and has evolved over time.

In general though, it's to do with a character having no flaws or being too perfect/powerful. I don't think you can apply that to Arya. I mean, in the same episode she got herself cornered, looked terrified and needed saving by two other characters.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Mary Sue was competently trained too. You have the wrong end of the stick here bud

But she was good at everything from Art to Zoology. We saw Arya's needle point and her drawing of a spear. She's not good at art.

 

[Organic Potatoes]

It's genuinely astonishing. This is a character with literally hours of development and training, so much so that people were complaining about the amount of time we had to watch her get hit with sticks and be blind and sell cockles and so on, who is utterly established as a magic super assassin and she's still a Mary Sue.

She talked people into eating oysters with vanilla for fecks sake.

 

[Minimalist]

Not sure what definition you're basing that on as the term can include a lot of things and has evolved over time.

In general though, it's to do with a character having no flaws or being too perfect/powerful. I don't think you can apply that to Arya. I mean, in the same episode she got herself cornered, looked terrified and needed saving by two other characters.

Arya’s not a Mary Sue. She literally gets trained by killers for the whole fecking show. Brain dead stuff to ignore that. The only thing we know from the start is that she’s a tomboy and is better with a bow than her sewing.

 

[kouroux]

Should see the amount of long pointless text posts on the r/asioaf subreddit. Looks like hundreds of neckbeards just had to have their own personal say/discussion regarding DnD ruining their life with that episode (instead of just adding a comment to the usual discussion threads). Genuinely cringeworthy shit thinking these are grown men (and I assume some women).

Now this something I'll never get, some weirdos getting too emotionally invested in this to the point you described. It's one thing to discuss about it and exchange ideas and theories but there is a big percentage of GOT followers who are straight up insane.

 

[Gehrman]

No. Rey is a Mary sue in that she's what people who use that term nowadays think of one and so justify the difference.




Mary Sue was a 15 yo character that worked her way up to the point where she saved the day and upstaged the main hero. That's Arya to a tee



If people want to call Rey a 'Mary Sue' in the modern meaning then fine, be that way. But also you have to call Arya and any number of characters one too. That's my point, it shouldn't be a bad thing and at least if people think it is, they should know the origins and why stuffy arsehole men decided it was.





Mary Sue was competently trained too. You have the wrong end of the stick here bud

I guess I feel Arya earned it. She's watched all her friends an Family die. First micah was butchered for no reason. Her fencing teacher was then killed. Then her father had her head chopped off. Then Robb and her mother were butchered at a wedding. Also then Brann and Rickon were oficially dead in winterfell which was sacked. She had to travel around with the hound whom killed one of her best friends. She didn't excatly have it easy, when she was being trained as an assasin.


I feel, she has really gone through immense hardship to get to where she is. But yeah she's definitely become the most lethal weapon in terms of single kills. I don't know if that makes her a mary sue.


Wouldnt dany be a mary sue also?

 

[Massive Spanner]

You must have the brightness dialled way up on your tv mate. Did you see this happen or is this what you imagined happened?

Yep, I've an LG OLED TV, unlike you peasants.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

 

[Redlambs]

"A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience, and usually are able through some means to upstage the main protagonist of an established fictional setting, such as by saving the hero."

So, this is the "official" definition of a Mary Sue. With that established, I think it's easy to see whether she qualifies.

1. A seemingly perfect character. I think it's quite easy to agree that Arya is not a perfect character. She's done plenty of questionable, cruel or dumb shite during the course of the show.
2. Wish fulfillment. I dunno, who's wish is it that a little girl kills the night king? Even if people do wish it, it's because of her character arc, not her age / sex / whatever.
3. Perform better tasks than should be possible due to training etc. At some point I wished they would cool it with the endless fecking Arya training to be a good fighter montages. If anything, she's had too much on screen training.
4. Upstaging the main protagonist. Who is the main protagonist? I thought it was Ned, than Robb, maybe Danaerys? I suppose you could say she upstaged Jon? Jon is a daft cnut who knows nothing though, so who cares.

The only valid Mary Sue complaint would've been Sam killing the night king.

You really should look into it more. Not having a pop, but you've literally just posted the first response on google.

Not sure what definition you're basing that on as the term can include a lot of things and has evolved over time.

In general though, it's to do with a character having no flaws or being too perfect/powerful. I don't think you can apply that to Arya. I mean, in the same episode she got herself cornered, looked terrified and needed saving by two other characters.

But she was good at everything from Art to Zoology. We saw Arya's needle point and her drawing of a spear. She's not good at art.

Arya was excellent with a Needle!