Ah right, i guess that makes sense?
Really weird that John was basically relegated to a side character for the episode though... Especially as it's been played as "his war" leading up to this.
Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended
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Ah right, i guess that makes sense?
Really weird that John was basically relegated to a side character for the episode though... Especially as it's been played as "his war" leading up to this.
That was so amazingly epic. I know some are unhappy that more characters didn't die off, but they will in the next battle. I think people are far too focused on who didn't die. Honestly never thought TV could be this epic, it puts some movies to shame.
We've discussed this for most of today and none of us can come up with any decent answers to any of your questions.
The only thing that might make sense is the Dothraki got overly excited and adrenaline kicked in when they got magical flaming swords and disobeyed orders and charged. But I would counter that argument by saying that you don't put your Dothraki Calvary at the front of your forces. It's a very dumb thing to do and Daenerys/Jorah should have known that. Also nobody had any lines along the lines of "why are they charging wtf!".
As for the Dragons, fecks knows mate. A total mess, I can only assume they decided both Dragons would go after the Night King rather than defend Winterfell, but that doesn't seem to fit either because they did use fire on the wights briefly. Then their GPS got all mixed up when the fog set in.
We're talking about a nomadic horse tribe who kill each other for fun. I don't think organised assaults are their thing, particularly when only about 4 people in the whole of Winterfell can speak both languages. We also have absolutely no idea what happened in that skirmish; the plan could well have been to cycle charge, to feign retreat, or to gain Intel, but when the enemy can wash over a spear wall like the sea over pebbles as demonstrated when the undead reached the unsullied, things change.
I'm not really arsed about people not dying... I know it's a big appeal for a lot of people with the "omg who is going to die next!?" ... But meh, if there's a story reason that makes sense it's better to keep people alive... Maybe?
Though having said that, I was thinkinh holy shit for a second at the end as I thought he killed Arya... So clearly I'm hypocrite
Though having said that, I was thinkinh holy shit for a second at the end as I thought he killed Arya... So clearly I'm hypocrite
To be honest Endgame’s final battle scene has ruined this a bit for me. It’s a hard act to follow. 
Still a good episode, happy it was Arya in the end. Thought for a second she was pretending to be Bran. Also, Theon
Still a good episode, happy it was Arya in the end. Thought for a second she was pretending to be Bran. Also, Theon
But why even charge at night against an unknown enemy? If your intention was to use the Calvary to scout or provoke then surely you'd get the dragons to put down some fire so they can actually see what they're doing? Letting your best warriors get head on against them is something that imo Jon Snow post hardhome would completely refuse to allow as a tactic. In daylight possibly, at night? No fecking way. It's suicide. There's no common sense.
I mean, our heroes have encountered undead bears which would rip horses to pieces. So they should have been more careful with the Calvary.
They're led by Westerosi and they aren't morons, they're perfectly capable of following instructions.
They don't even need to be particularly organised, just don't charge unaided in to the darkness without knowing what you're charging at. Even the dumbest commander ever would never order a mass charge in to the void.
It was just a dumb moment designed to get rid of expensive cavalry scenes and provide a bit of an 'oh shit' moment, but it was lazy imo. You know the enemy have hundreds of thousands of zombies and feck knows what else they've reanimated, so you just charge in to the darkness without scouting?
Not to mention the very important fact that your enemy can resurrect the dead. Throw in part of your army without support and even if they're semi-successful they will eventually get bogged down and that's 40 thousand warriors who are now on the enemy side.
That’s the one. What is even more odd, she was talking like she really knew what she was talking about regarding stuff no one else would know about Varys. Seemed to be at least on par with Melisandre, at least in magic stuff.
Then she’s never seen again...
The dragons were originally there to ambush the night King when he arrived. Dany clearly disobeyed that plan when she interfered.
They aren't their best warriors, the Unsullied are comfortably better.
So you wait for the unknown to charge you? That nullifies your horsemen.
I wish they'd shown arya actually making her way to the NK... Or at least something to set up the ending. Really felt cheap to me... Though i guess a lot of people will think it's cool so maybe I'm just a miserable git.
Aye, I think that's ultimately the problem. The writers decided to pursue set pieces that looked cool, over set pieces that made sense. Peter Jackson does this far too often.
I wasn't bothered about the death toll.
Theon and Jorah are both main characters who have been around since S1, that's two big deaths. Four if you count Ed and Melisandre, though that would be a stretch.
I'm sure a good few more will die in the remaining episodes.
Theon and Jorah are both main characters who have been around since S1, that's two big deaths. Four if you count Ed and Melisandre, though that would be a stretch.
I'm sure a good few more will die in the remaining episodes.
It was explained. Night king wants to while out the race of man and Bran is the record keeper of all men
At what point would they be aware of what they were facing? As shown by the Dothrakis face upon contact, visibility was atrocious. If they didn't attack, it would be the undead with the momentum and the Dothraki would've been completely fecked.
Btw. I wish people would stop calling everything they disagree with lazy. The writers have asked for a little suspension of disbelief in a situation with enough variables that we can't say for certain what the intention was, in order to create a pretty epic scene.
That was going to happen regardless. It's unavoidable. Does it not make more sense to leave your dead hundreds of yards away from your castle wall, as opposed to in and around it?
I hope we find out more about the NK, his motives for wanting to exterminate humanity, all of that jazz. Part of the reason people are disappointed in his death I think is because nothing is really explained, him and the white walkers are an interesting/mysterious force and you had a few moments in this episode where it looked like he wasn't just an emotionless death machine.
Very dark episode, so I'm glad none of the main cast died. I want to actually see them get butchered. Very enjoyable though. Felt so epic.
Two questions:
What the feck was Bran doing playing with crows? That better be answered at some point.
Why the feck is that cnut Sansa still alive?
Two questions:
What the feck was Bran doing playing with crows? That better be answered at some point.
Why the feck is that cnut Sansa still alive?
No feckin way, Dothraki are feared across the entire globe as being the best warriors. They sack cities on a whim, we've been told this from Season 1.
I cannot for the life of me see how either dragon can ambush the night king when they're so bloody large.
Your Light Calvary is used to break the opposition when the opposition gets pinned down. Not to ride out and meet whatever lurks in the darkness head on. Jon Snow has said for two seasons that they need every man and yet he allows the Dothraki (a considerable number of their army) to charge at the start of the battle against unknown enemy? It would have made far more sense for the Dothraki to charge when the Wights were stuck briefly at the trench system. Or to give up their horses and man the walls as they are still very good fighters off horseback as shown in the gold train attack or even way back in Season 1 with the Wedding deaths.
Simply charging them head first into the darkness is how I used to play Total War as a 10 year old.
Jaimie killing Cersei would be a fitting end. Have a good feeling dany will die in the final war.
Because according to Tyrion she will outlive them all.
Do people in general rank this above or below the Battle of The Bastards?
For me it's definitely below.
For me it's definitely below.
They had catapults that fired flaming rounds, they had dragons that can pour fire on the floor. They had methods of lighting the area outside of the castle. Alternatively, they could have just waited until daylight, it wasn't like the dead made it clear they were attacking at that very moment, the Dothraki engaged first.
They have light outside the walls. They also have infantry support and potentially archers, and positions where they can hold the enemy rather than charging aimlessly at them with no hope of actually achieving anything.
What, more fecked than dead in about 20 seconds because they charged without knowing what they were doing and with nobody nearby to help them? Look at how much better the packed infantry fighting from defensive positions fared. The dothraki would have been more use in a support role on foot behind the unsullied, cutting apart anybody who gets through the gaps, helping to fight in hand to hand combat on the walls etc. That's 40 thousand more men helping to stop the dead breaching the walls.
Instead that 40k was thrown away for no reason, blindly. I don't get how you can possibly justify that as a sound tactical decision. The dothraki are superb individual warriors, either on horseback or on foot. In this situation the horses were not needed since it was a battle with no visibility in front of a defensive position. Dismount and keep them within the castle, it's not really that hard.
It is lazy. A competent commander does not make that decision, especially commanders who have great experience with the enemy they are fighting and how dangerous they are. There's a reason they didn't decide to march on the NK and fight him in the open field.
Easily below. You could actually see stuff in the Battle of the Bastards for one.
I'd rank Hardholme higher too.
BoB is above it, it was a far more satisfying experience. I'd have it as a top 10 episode, perhaps top 5 but thats only on cinematic/music score. Story wise i'd rank it pretty low, i'm a little annoyed about how dumb parts of the episode were. waited a long time for this episode and to me it was under whelming, my opinion may change in the next few weeks though.
Rewatched the NK death scene multiple times now. It's incredibly well done with the music. Just ignore Jon Snow yelling at a zombie dragon like a twat in the middle of it.
I was really hoping they'd show the NK go on a rampage taking out everyone, wouldn't care how he died after. Disappointing he did nothing in the end really.
Yes fecking way. The unsullied are quite literally bred for battle. Their balls are chopped off to remove any urge that distracts from their sole purpose in life. At the battle of Qohor 3,000 Unsullied stop 20,000 Dothraki. There's no debate.
They're a mile away from the battle. Their sole job was to fight the Night King. They had zero chance of winning that battle any other way. Dragons or no dragons. Besides, the Night King literally catches them unawares, despite being on an equally enormous dragon.
Again, you're comparing them to an actual fighting unit. They're raiders that go into blood frenzies. And they're fighting hordes of the undead, a giant and a dragon. We don't know if the intent was to meet them or to gather intel or feign retreat. We don't know if they wanted the honour of attacking first. We aren't given enough information to make an informed decision.
Little OTT at this bar. It's a fecking TV show not a walk-off homerun to win the Series or Ole scoring in the 90+3 against Bayern.
I’d have to watch it once it’s remastered in the visible spectrum of the human eye, but probably below that, Hardhome, and Blackwater.
I’m also partial to the Spoils of War caravan; could watch the first few minutes on a loop...
Seems to me they were pretty well informed they were attacking at that moment. They also have Bran. I think you're being pretty ambitious if you think a half dozen catapults are going to do the job from a mile away. And if you think it's stupid sending the Dothraki into the unknown, why the feck would sending your dragon in be any better?
I think the reason they didn't show it, is cause it would spoil the surprise. If you could see her coming, there'd be no suspense at the end.
Mate that's England fans from the WC in the summer. Call yourself a football fan and didn't even recognise the scene. Tsk tsk tsk
He did raise the dead which was one of the highlights of the episode for me... But yeah, weird how the two main protagonists in this storyline did the least in the episode itself
He's never done that ever though? The army does his work and then if needed his other commander dudes get involved. He always just walks into the carnage cool as a cucumber. Makes complete sense to me.
They got me then. But why would I, not an England fan, notice that was England in the WC?
Re: BotB's as a comparison.
It has plenty of illogical shit in it too remember.
It has plenty of illogical shit in it too remember.
The Dothraki had flaming swords and didn't notice them until they collided. And if the the undead get within reach of the light from the walls, it's a little late to employ a mounted unit. We don't know what they wanted to achieve. Can you say categorically that a feigned retreat wasn't planned? That they didn't plan to use the trap they employed a little more effectively?
Yes. Because now they are fecked within 20 seconds and a big shiny new army for the night King to reanimate on your doorstep.