Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

Cheesy said:
We'll see some internal tension within the Jon/Daenerys camp but I get the impression it's way too late in the game for them to have Jon and Daenerys essentially go to war with each other with only three episodes remaining. That's a story that'd be worthy of a season-long conflict of its own. Varys has been useless in the show for years now because the writers don't actually have him do any scheming anymore.

I think it will mostly come down to Cersei vs everyone else in the end to be honest. And if it doesn't I struggle to see them setting up the final remaining conflicts in a way which allows said conflicts to be resolved effectively.
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If Varys is indeed useless for the rest of the series, then why did Melisandre tell him something along the lines of: “I will leave for now but you know I will come back as I have to die in these strange lands.
Just like you, Lord Varys.”
I think he will still play a role.
 
RedSky said:
I disagree, the pilot of the series had the White Walkers as the dominant threat. "Winter is Coming" has been the main catchphrase for the entire show, the Show imo has always been about the White Walkers, most of the Seasons have ended with them as the final scene. Given the amount of transporting that happened last season, we'd still have more than enough time, its still 3 feature length films to go.
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Exactly. This mysterious figure is the biggest threat to us all. We haven't faced anything like - oh, he's gone. Continue.

Come on Game of Thrones!
 
RedSky said:
I disagree, the pilot of the series had the White Walkers as the dominant threat. "Winter is Coming" has been the main catchphrase for the entire show, the Show imo has always been about the White Walkers, most of the Seasons have ended with them as the final scene. Given the amount of transporting that happened last season, we'd still have more than enough time, its still 3 feature length films to go.
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King7Eric said:
They had Melisandre saying again and again said that the war between humans means nothing and the real war is the war up north. Same with Jon and Bran. They also never really explained the motivations of the WWs and NK and also the role of the Lord of Light wasn't really explained and now that his biggest proponent is dead, I think that'll be left unresolved. Its not the killing of the NK that's the issue, its the timing of it. It just feels rushed and leaves too many unanswered questions that are unlikely to be resolved.
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Cheesy said:
But the heroes of the show have consistently been arguing that the humans had to put aside their petty conflicts in order to address the WW's. In that sense they were always portrayed as the biggest looming threat and eventual endgame.
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I agree that the battle that matters is the one against the dead. But from a writing perspective they probably wanted to keep it away from the finale because its an outcome that 90% of the people know - humans will win.

What is a far greater unknown is who sits on the throne - and that's why its left for later.

I don't disagree too much with how the NK went, I thought it was very apt in fact. What annoyed me is the lack of explanation as to his real connection with bran, his past, where the Lord of the light fits etc. However I never expected them to expand on this because they've gone beyond the books.

From season 7 we should all have accepted there won't be much expansion from the foundations of the books and we are going to see it all wrapped up. I guess when you go in expecting that from the outset there's less to complain about?
 
ChaddyP said:
Any one else thought the sound was absolutely shit 3/4 of the episode
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The dialogue was very low, I had to jack up the volume a bit but the surround sound was on point.
The picture was dark as shit though, even in a pitch black room with a 4K tv
 
BusbyMalone said:
Exactly. This mysterious figure is the biggest threat to us all. We haven't faced anything like - oh, he's gone. Continue.

Come on Game of Thrones!
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The show has been totally grey. Sometimes not sure who was good and who was bad. Then The Night King plot came along and was completely black and white. It never really fit with the show.

It's like he was writing a story about political intrigue. Then someone said to him you know what would be cool Dragons. Then someone else said you know what would be cooler Zombies.
 
King7Eric said:
At the start if 2nd season, a big deal was made about magic returning to the world with dragons been born and the WWs acting up again after a supposed 1000 years of inactivity. The reason for this return was never explained and I think there will be some explanation in the prequel about how magic and religion works in Planetos and will delve further into their motivations. That's my theory anyway, I guess we'll find out in a couple of years time.
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Which sounds great but you could literally explain it all in one to two episodes, its boring and concetrating on it to much leads to a dead end. The story and the drama of the main human characters is what always matters. If we think of how the oldest stories we have tell their tales then it is naturally greatly abbreviated and their characters become one note perspectives of heroism in their telling at bullet points of their lives. Jon Snow the brave took on the might of the evil Night King and him and his Noble Dragon Princess took on the forces. The arrogant evil Night King with victory at hand did not see Arya the cunning who slew him with the mighty Catspaw blade at the long night of winterfell. It would probably be a song. It's the flaws of the inner lives of characters of how they develop that's the story. Even in Tolkiens world they hardly explain the magic, it just is. Now there's tons of stories in the past where we get to see there actions in more detail (Unwe the Illuvutar, Melkor and so on) but the main thing is in events and what leads upto them. Its why I think the star wars stories are a dead end now. You have to have the force, you have to have a evil empire etc etc.
 
BusbyMalone said:
Exactly. This mysterious figure is the biggest threat to us all. We haven't faced anything like - oh, he's gone. Continue.

Come on Game of Thrones!
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He was the greatest threat to them all. Look what he achieved throughout the series and particularly in this one night as well. They were facing total annihilation and it felt like he hadn't even broke a sweat. Daenys forces we've seen built up, gone in one night.
 
Cheesy said:
We'll see some internal tension within the Jon/Daenerys camp but I get the impression it's way too late in the game for them to have Jon and Daenerys essentially go to war with each other with only three episodes remaining. That's a story that'd be worthy of a season-long conflict of its own. Varys has been useless in the show for years now because the writers don't actually have him do any scheming anymore.

I think it will mostly come down to Cersei vs everyone else in the end to be honest. And if it doesn't I struggle to see them setting up the final remaining conflicts in a way which allows said conflicts to be resolved effectively.
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If that's how it turns out then the writers have failed and missed a big opportunity. Jon and Daeny don't have to go to war for it to be interesting. The best part about Martin's writing IMO is not the cliche fantasy elements (WW) or the battle scenes (his battle scenes tend to be poor for me compared to say Malazan) but he shines when he does the political intrigue. Jon and Daeny can have tension and conflict and have it be compelling without going to war.

Varys is tricky because the show cut his long term goals from the show's plotline to make it shorter. They didn't completely mangle it so he can definitely still play a big role. Sure, they have to reformat his plans from the books in greater degree than any other but its poor writing if they don't have something in mind.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
If that's how it turns out then the writers have failed and missed a big opportunity. Jon and Daeny don't have to go to war for it to be interesting. The best part about Martin's writing IMO is not the cliche fantasy elements (WW) or the battle scenes (his battle scenes tend to be poor for me compared to say Malazan) but he shines when he does the political intrigue. Jon and Daeny can have tension and conflict and have it be compelling without going to war.

Varys is tricky because the show cut his long term goals from the show's plotline to make it shorter. They didn't completely mangle it so he can definitely still play a big role. Sure, they have to reformat his plans from the books in greater degree than any other but its poor writing if they don't have something in mind.
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The writers have been very blunt and lacking in subtlety for a while now though.

There'll undoubtedly be tension between Jon and Daenerys but the main conflict itself is now them vs Cersei. The Stark/Targaryen tension will give that a slight extra dimension but it won't detract from the fact that the main plot itself will still see them teaming up to take the throne for either of Jon or Daenerys. And while that again may result in tension, I struggle to see anything massively shocking happening...when's the last time the writers pulled a Red Wedding-style shock out the bag? Seasons 6-8 have been played very straight for the most part.

If they do anything with Varys they'll perhaps have him side with Jon over Daenerys for who should rule Westeros, but even then that's about the most we'll see from him. Other than that he'll give a philosophical speech about the importance of the realm or something.
 
Cheesy said:
But the heroes of the show have consistently been arguing that the humans had to put aside their petty conflicts in order to address the WW's. In that sense they were always portrayed as the biggest looming threat and eventual endgame.
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That's why you have Cersei scheming in the background this season because she's only got her eye on the real prize.

Let everyone else get distracted by the small evil like it's a massive thing and continue being big evil.
 
Gambit said:
He was the greatest threat to them all. Look what he achieved throughout the series and particularly in this one night as well. They were facing total annihilation and it felt like he hadn't even broke a sweat. Daenys forces we've seen built up, gone in one night.
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Not...that much? He took over like a quarter of one of the least populous regions in Westeros. Other armies have annihilated each other throughout the show as well. He should've been the biggest threat but was resoundingly defeated the first time he took his army into a battle against a mildly prepared opponent.
 
esmufc07 said:
Sorry but that was utter bullshit. Everyone survives and Arya gets past hordes of the undead to kill the NK?
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To be fair we've had 7 seasons of Arya training to be a silent killer. That is one of the more believable parts of the episode. She knows Winterfell like the back of her hand and could easily have snuck into the Godswood using a different way or just her speed and stealth. Also she used that hand switch technique against Brienne last season.
 
Night King got Supreme Leader Snoked

"Hey I'm the bad guy and you finally get to see me"

"And I'm gone like Bronze Yohn everytime theres something other than keeping Sansa company to be done."
 
Cheesy said:
The writers have been very blunt and lacking in subtlety for a while now though.

There'll undoubtedly be tension between Jon and Daenerys but the main conflict itself is now them vs Cersei. The Stark/Targaryen tension will give that a slight extra dimension but it won't detract from the fact that the main plot itself will still see them teaming up to take the throne for either of Jon or Daenerys. And while that again may result in tension, I struggle to see anything massively shocking happening...when's the last time the writers pulled a Red Wedding-style shock out the bag? Seasons 6-8 have been played very straight for the most part.

If they do anything with Varys they'll perhaps have him side with Jon over Daenerys for who should rule Westeros, but even then that's about the most we'll see from him. Other than that he'll give a philosophical speech about the importance of the realm or something.
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If its disappointing as you suggest then I will not rate writers as highly by the end but I will still be far happier than if they dragged out the cliche fantasy NK nonsense all way down to Kings Landing ;)
 
Gambit said:
He was the greatest threat to them all. Look what he achieved throughout the series and particularly in this one night as well. They were facing total annihilation and it felt like he hadn't even broke a sweat. Daenys forces we've seen built up, gone in one night.
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Yes, that is a good point and something that i was thinking about earlier when i was mulling the episode over a bit more. There were of course heavy casualties and the human army have been decimated, which could have a huge impact for the rest of the season. Although, i'm not sure how much of an impact it's going to have as i don't trust the writers anymore to make bold decisions. I mean, realistically Cersei should win this fight, right? I'm assuming she has a larger army. She probably should win and remain in power, but that's obviously not going to happen as some of the main characters (Jon, Dany, Jamie etc) have very strong plot armour which was established last season and has continued now.

Maybe they'll surprise me and make some bold moves in the coming episodes. But i'm skeptical.

Its just there was no really emotional gut punch here. This was built up as something truly horrifying and that just never came to pass for me. It started off that way. As i said before, the opening 15/20 minutes were exceptional, but then it become abundantly clear that something truly horrifying just wasn't going to happen. The amount of times the main characters were saved at the last second was ridiculous.
 
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Solius said:
To be fair we've had 7 seasons of Arya training to be a silent killer. That is one of the more believable parts of the episode. She knows Winterfell like the back of her hand and could easily have snuck into the Godswood using a different way or just her speed and stealth. Also she used that hand switch technique against Brienne last season.
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Sorry but no. She was in the depths of Winterfell, somehow escaped all that, made her way to the forest past all the NKs bodyguards and just stabbed him.

Honestly, it's pissed me off. I've put 8 bastard years into this show and that's how they decide to deal with the NK.

Utter tripe. No major characters killed other than see Jorah. Undead in the crypt for about 24 days yet everyone survives. Jon on his own surrounded by a hundreds of undead yet survives. Honestly what is the point at this stage? How many ridiculous scenarios where Jon should die is he going to survive?

The best thing about the episode was the music. 10/10.
 
esmufc07 said:
Sorry but no. She was in the depths of Winterfell, somehow escaped all that, made her way to the forest past all the NKs bodyguards and just stabbed him.

Honestly, it's pissed me off. I've put 8 bastard years into this show and that's how they decide to deal with the NK.

Utter tripe. No major characters killed other than see Jorah. Undead in the crypt for about 24 days yet everyone survives. Jon on his own surrounded by a hundreds of undead yet survives. Honestly what is the point at this stage? How many ridiculous scenarios where Jon should die is he going to survive?

The best thing about the episode was the music. 10/10.
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I don't think you grok how powerful Faceless Men are in the Game of Thrones universe. And the NK didn't have hordes of undead around him. He only had that group of a dozen or so.

If we do a character power analysis, Jaqen H'ghar is probably the single most powerful martial/mystic character in the entire story.
 
esmufc07 said:
Sorry but no. She was in the depths of Winterfell, somehow escaped all that, made her way to the forest past all the NKs bodyguards and just stabbed him.

Honestly, it's pissed me off. I've put 8 bastard years into this show and that's how they decide to deal with the NK.

Utter tripe. No major characters killed other than see Jorah. Undead in the crypt for about 24 days yet everyone survives. Jon on his own surrounded by a hundreds of undead yet survives. Honestly what is the point at this stage? How many ridiculous scenarios where Jon should die is he going to survive?

The best thing about the episode was the music. 10/10.
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I mean I've already moaned about the plot armour but the Arya thing made the most sense. How do you know she was in the depths of Winterfell? We last saw her in a big main room and then she ran off and we didn't see her for 20 minutes. She could have easily snuck around the castle in the manner she had already done in a previous scene.
 
Fully Fledged said:
The show has been totally grey. Sometimes not sure who was good and who was bad. Then The Night King plot came along and was completely black and white. It never really fit with the show.

It's like he was writing a story about political intrigue. Then someone said to him you know what would be cool Dragons. Then someone else said you know what would be cooler Zombies.
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Although saying that, and i've said this many times, i don't dislike the Night King. My emotions towards the Night King is of intrigue and fascination. I don't hate him. That's probably the biggest problem of this whole thing really. There's no emotional drive there from me to see this creature die. So when Arya does what she does, it's like, well, great, but i don't really get the satisfaction because i don't hate him. And to die like that was just a little cheap. People say he got what was coming to him due to his hubris, but there's nobody more arrogant on the show than Dany and Jon yet they survive everything that comes at them. Which wasn't the case in the past seasons.
 
Solius said:
I mean I've already moaned about the plot armour but the Arya thing made the most sense. How do you know she was in the depths of Winterfell? We last saw her in a big main room and then she ran off and we didn't see her for 20 minutes. She could have easily snuck around the castle in the manner she had already done in a previous scene.
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Just let me grieve :(
 
BusbyMalone said:
Although saying that, and i've said this many times, i don't dislike the Night King. My emotions towards the Night King is of intrigue and fascination. I don't hate him. That's probably the biggest problem of this whole thing really. There's no emotional drive there from me to see this creature die. So when Arya does what she does, it's like, well, great, but i don't really get the satisfaction because i don't hate him. And to die like that was just a little cheap. People say he got what was coming to him due to his hubris, but there's nobody more arrogant on the show than Dany and Jon yet they survive everything that comes at them. Which wasn't the case in the past seasons.
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I said this to my gf last night. When I watched season one I saw Ned was about to get beheaded and because there was so much build up I wasn't really worried. Tropes in film and media have conditioned me to expect him to be saved, so when it actually happened I was so shocked. That became a theme for the show with things like the Red Wedding. Once they ran out of book material it turned into a normal action show where the heroes can never die. This basically removes all tension because you know Jon isn't going to die at the hands of 1000 wights. He could literally be in the middle of the entire undead army and I'd feel fine about his chances for survival.
 
ha_rooney said:
I reckon now she's got the upper-hand with troop numbers, she's going to go on a killing rampage which eventually leads to Jamie killing her, like how he did the Mad King.
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The scene is set for a trial. Supposedly Tyrion's. :nervous:
 
BusbyMalone said:
Although saying that, and i've said this many times, i don't dislike the Night King. My emotions towards the Night King is of intrigue and fascination. I don't hate him. That's probably the biggest problem of this whole thing really. There's no emotional drive there from me to see this creature die. So when Arya does what she does, it's like, well, great, but i don't really get the satisfaction because i don't hate him. And to die like that was just a little cheap. People say he got what was coming to him due to his hubris, but there's nobody more arrogant on the show than Dany and Jon yet they survive everything that comes at them. Which wasn't the case in the past seasons.
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I believe Martin has a different intention for the Night King that is not so black and white.

I believe in the books, the Night King will be inextricably connected to Bran/Three Eyed Raven in a deeper way than depicted in the show. They are either two halves of the same whole, some type of duality or literally the same type of non-linear magic entity. I don't think the Night King was drawing his sword to kill Bran, at least not in the books he won't be. Its possible he was drawing his sword to swear fealty. Maybe Bran is, in a multiple personality way that is hinted at in the show, actually the real Night King.

The Hodor/Hold the Door aspect that delves into a non-linear time thing I think has something to do with this. I think the show took the easy out because they couldn't deal with the complexities as well as Martin hadn't fully finalized his plans here (he also gave an interview where he said he intentionally changed things in Winds of Winter book to continue going in different direction than the show which got an earlier outline of his intended ending). So since the show didn't develop this more grey telling of the NK, I think that is one area martin will get into in the books more - the Night King - Three Eyed Raven connection to the Children of the Forest and whole question of why this Long Night is even a thing.

I think in the books, to kill the Night King, they will have to kill Bran.
 
Cheesy said:
We'll see some internal tension within the Jon/Daenerys camp but I get the impression it's way too late in the game for them to have Jon and Daenerys essentially go to war with each other with only three episodes remaining. That's a story that'd be worthy of a season-long conflict of its own. Varys has been useless in the show for years now because the writers don't actually have him do any scheming anymore.

I think it will mostly come down to Cersei vs everyone else in the end to be honest. And if it doesn't I struggle to see them setting up the final remaining conflicts in a way which allows said conflicts to be resolved effectively.
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cersi to get leztastic with Danny and rule together ... They both want the throne and could be a nice final twist
 
BusbyMalone said:
Exactly. This mysterious figure is the biggest threat to us all. We haven't faced anything like - oh, he's gone. Continue.

Come on Game of Thrones!
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But this was an incredible decimation of some of the best fighters in the Universe. The Dothraki, The Unsullied, even the dragons had it hard. The WW just wiped the floor with everyone.
Why is everyone pretending that this was too easy?
 
Can someone explain to me how 40,000 Dothraki SCREAMERS got obliterated in 30 seconds. Robert Baratheon assured me that only a fool would meet them on the battlefield.
 
esmufc07 said:
Sorry but no. She was in the depths of Winterfell, somehow escaped all that, made her way to the forest past all the NKs bodyguards and just stabbed him.

Honestly, it's pissed me off. I've put 8 bastard years into this show and that's how they decide to deal with the NK.

Utter tripe. No major characters killed other than see Jorah. Undead in the crypt for about 24 days yet everyone survives. Jon on his own surrounded by a hundreds of undead yet survives. Honestly what is the point at this stage? How many ridiculous scenarios where Jon should die is he going to survive?

The best thing about the episode was the music. 10/10.
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Nah, the Arya scene made most sense, it was already established with her training and what not that she is literally silent, in previous scene blood dripping made more noise and got the undead attention than her going around.
And I like it much better to be her than some cliche Jon Snow being a hero and killing him scene.

Lots of other things didn't make sense though.

Lots of main characters had plot armor, but I guess they saved them so they have some people to kill in the last episodes against Cersei?
 
Solius said:
I said this to my gf last night. When I watched season one I saw Ned was about to get beheaded and because there was so much build up I wasn't really worried. Tropes in film and media have conditioned me to expect him to be saved, so when it actually happened I was so shocked. That became a theme for the show with things like the Red Wedding. Once they ran out of book material it turned into a normal action show where the heroes can never die. This basically removes all tension because you know Jon isn't going to die at the hands of 1000 wights. He could literally be in the middle of the entire undead army and I'd feel fine about his chances for survival.
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Exactly. It's not necessarily a bad show. It just could've been so much more. That's the sad thing. Now it's just like any other. Obviously the budget and spectacle isn't like any other. But i mean in terms of expectations. I'm no longer on the edge of my seat thinking "oh shit, this could be it for Jon, or Dany" etc.

When lesser shows take liberties with their main characters i just shrug my shoulders because it's what you expect. But it's such a letdown when this show does it. Hey, who knows. Perhaps they still have it in them. There's three episodes left. They may surprise me still. There's still time for it.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
I much prefer the way it was done. Your suggestion would give too much screen time to the most cliche parts of the show - the whole good vs evil - which is the least compelling plot aspect for me.

The white walkers (and zombie Cat) are my least favorite aspects of the story. I very much prefer how they got the white walkers and night king out of the way in 1 episode and now they can get back to the best parts of the show - the intrigue and scheming.
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I'm directly the opposite. I find Cersei a relatively boring character and the intrigue for me was the White Walkers and how Westeros would cope with the threat. Looks like you won out. :p
 
What if Arya was waiting in the tree? They show her walk off from Hound and Mellisandre, when theon was still fighting the wights, iirc. Maybe she snuck up the tree and jumped in from there
 
BusbyMalone said:
Yes, that is a good point and something that i was thinking about earlier when i was mulling the episode over a bit more. There were of course heavy casualties and the human army have been decimated, which could have a huge impact for the rest of the season. Although, i'm not sure how much of an impact it's going to have as i don't trust the writers anymore to make bold decisions. I mean, realistically Cersei should win this fight, right? I'm assuming she has a larger army. She probably should win and remain in power, but that's obviously not going to happen as some of the main characters (Jon, Dany, Jamie etc) have very strong plot armour which was established last season and has continued now.

Maybe they'll surprise me and make some bold moves in the coming episodes. But i'm skeptical.

Its just there was no really emotional gut punch here. This was built up as something truly horrifying and that just never came to pass for me. It started off that way. As i said before, the opening 15/20 minutes were exceptional, but then it become abundantly clear that something truly horrifying just wasn't going to happen. The amount of times the main characters were saved at the last second was ridiculous.
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There will be at least one major shocking/surprising death, i am 100% about that.

Speculation
Probably one (or more) of Dany, Jon, Sansa or Tyrion. Jaime wouldn't even be a shock to me, as i expect him to die somehow related to Cersei (protect her? die for her? Bronn?). Going into the last 3 episodes i think there is no need for any plot armor anymore. And most good series or movies end with a major death. And GoT will prove once again, what made them special - shocking moments. There is no way they will not (try to) bring another one.

I unfortunately believe it will be Jon, this time for good. But personally i hope for an happy end. :D
 
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