Frenkie de Jong | The last muppeting lap

[Ajaxsuarez]

Everyone describes their shape as 4-2-3-1 because that was the best way to describe the team overall, and that was because they largely played from that shape in possession as well. If they operated with De Jong playing from defence as standard when they had the ball, being such a proactive side, they would very likely be described as playing a very different shape.

Alfred Schreuder, assistant to Ten Hag at the time and incoming Ajax manager literally said this yesterday:

"Toen Erik ten Hag de trainer was, hebben we in de Champions League ook niet 4-3-3 gespeeld. Als je naar het Ajax met Frenkie de Jong en Matthijs de Ligt keek, speelden wij in balbezit ook met drie verdedigers. Wij lieten Frenkie de Jong altijd uitzakken, Nicolás Tagliafico en Noussair Mazraoui gingen hoog en Hakim Ziyech en Dusan Tadic kwamen aan de binnenkant"

"When Erik ten Hag was trainer, we also didn't play 4-3-3 in the champions league. If you looked at the Ajax with Frenkie de Jong and Matthijs de Ligt, we also played with three defenders in possession. We always let Frenkie de Jong drop out; Tagliafico and Mazraoui went high up the pitch and Ziyech and Tadic came to the inside."

https://www.voetbalzone.nl/doc.asp?uid=404008

De Jong always dropped out to left centreback in possession. The point was that he would then hopefully carry the ball into the midfield himself, thereby creating numerical advantage.

This was the same role that Gravenberch had in Ajax last season, and is a key role in Ten Hag's systems.

This season Tagliafico fell out of favour, partly because Martinez and Timber were too good a centreback pairing thereby displacing Blind at LCB.

Ten Hag decided to move Blind out to leftback, but occupying that same LCB progressing position in possession, except starting from left back.
With that role filled, this meant Gravenberch this season had to play further up the pitch, as more of an 8/10 hybrid, and this was why he struggled to adapt a bit the first half of this season.

 

[Rolaholic]

 

[saivet]

A question for those scarred by Di Maria and worried by the fact he's not jumping at the chance to join United. Would you not be slightly concerned if he was jumping at the chance to join United and didn't need convincing to join us given how shite we've been?

We shouldn't be convincing players on money alone but I don't think there's much wrong in having to convince a player to join us, given our recent history. You've got to be wary of being played but it's something that happens all the time at other clubs.

 

[VinzentFTW]

We will probably get him when he is declining at 31 and wanting a big last pay check

 

[Yagami]

Always happy to see a @Rolaholic post here. Haven't been this glued to a transfer thread since Alexis.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

He's nothing like Pogba.

Never said he was. Just said he is a #8. So I Pogba...

 

[Bebestation]

That’s messed up.

That is basically a sale.

 

[Rake]

That’s messed up.

That is basically a sale.

Full quote


“We will do what is best for the club,” Laporta told Sport. “If the economic levers that we want to activate come off, no player will leave for economic reasons.

“I insist. Let the sports management work. There are players who are quoted to have received offers. In the sports area, Xavi and Mateu Alemany rule and he ends up deciding the club’s sports management.

“I will follow what the professionals of the club say.”

 

[Kaos]

Even if Barca put him up for sale - why would he pick us? He'll have no shortage of suitors, almost all of which will offer Champions league football, some even in the Premier League. What would we offer? The chance to work with Ten Hag again and a big payday? I was personally hoping we'd move away with tempting reluctant transferees with huge contracts, even if we're up against it being out of Europe.

If he wants to join then brilliant, snap him up. If he's still apprehensive after all the (alleged) constant persuading from Ten Hag, then I hope we'd move on to other targets, ideally ones who'd jump at the chance to play for us.

 

[sewey89]

Full quote


“We will do what is best for the club,” Laporta told Sport. “If the economic levers that we want to activate come off, no player will leave for economic reasons.

“I insist. Let the sports management work. There are players who are quoted to have received offers. In the sports area, Xavi and Mateu Alemany rule and he ends up deciding the club’s sports management.

“I will follow what the professionals of the club say.”

He’s not going to say anything else though is he. If he comes out and says that they need money, then they lose any bargaining position. He also says ‘if’ the deals they want to activate come off..

 

[Hammondo]

Never said he was. Just said he is a #8. So I Pogba...

His main position is not an 8 though. I believe currently in Barca he is, but this has been highlighted at the reason hes not performing, its not his proper position.

 

[Bebestation]

Full quote


“We will do what is best for the club,” Laporta told Sport. “If the economic levers that we want to activate come off, no player will leave for economic reasons.

“I insist. Let the sports management work. There are players who are quoted to have received offers. In the sports area, Xavi and Mateu Alemany rule and he ends up deciding the club’s sports management.

“I will follow what the professionals of the club say.”

Still,

it takes 4 seconds to say “he is not for sale”.

This doesn’t mean his transfer is guaranteed, all it takes is a messed up fax machine to stop a transfer happening anyway.

But still that sounds like to me that he is available.

 

[RatPack]

His main position is not an 8 though. I believe currently in Barca he is, but this has been highlighted at the reason hes not performing, its not his proper position.

Then what. He is not a 6 either. Maybe something in between. Great signing if he actually wanted to come, but we would need a real DM next to him to cover.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Even if Barca put him up for sale - why would he pick us? He'll have no shortage of suitors, almost all of which will offer Champions league football, some even in the Premier League. What would we offer? The chance to work with Ten Hag again and a big payday? I was personally hoping we'd move away with tempting reluctant transferees with huge contracts, even if we're up against it being out of Europe.

If he wants to join then brilliant, snap him up. If he's still apprehensive after all the (alleged) constant persuading from Ten Hag, then I hope we'd move on to other targets, ideally ones who'd jump at the chance to play for us.

 

[Kaos]

Yes I did allude to that being one reason, but the fact that Ten Hag is supposedly calling him everyday pleading with him to join suggests him being manager isn't as big a pull as we'd have hoped it would be.

 

[didz]

I think the reason he's struggled at Barca somewhat is the same reason he would struggle at most clubs. He's an incredibly specific type of player who's best role doesn't actually exist most places. Not many teams use a deep-left-half-space-roamer (catchy, right?) but ten Hag certainly likes to.

So really, he has to come here!

 

[Rake]

He’s not going to say anything else though is he. If he comes out and says that they need money, then they lose any bargaining position. He also says ‘if’ the deals they want to activate come off..

But still that sounds like to me that he is available.

I get what you guys are saying and they are not hiding the fact that they might have to sell players ,if needed. Also, their bargaining position is already evident to all parties involved. If I understood correctly, Barca needs quite a lot of funds by the end of the month since they won't be able to pay salaries, register players and won't comply with FFP. They can't drag this unresolved over the summer.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Yes I did allude to that being one reason, but the fact that Ten Hag is supposedly calling him everyday pleading with him to join suggests him being manager isn't as big a pull as we'd have hoped it would be.

He's not calling him every day mate. That's just not possible in common sense. It's just what PR thing, journalist being told by the club to make it sounds like De Jong really wants to stay at Barcelona. If Barcelona are forcing him to leave due to financial problems, why are we the front runner to get him? Surely other clubs with CL football would be the front runner. The fact we are the front runner means FDJ is interested to join us over others; thus, the other clubs know it would be waste of time.

 

[Kaos]

He's not calling him every day mate. That's just not possible in common sense.If Barcelona are forcing him to leave due to financial problems, why are we the front runners to get him? The fact we are the front runner means FDJ is interested to join us over others; thus, the other clubs know it would be waste of time.

Not necessarily - we're frontrunners I'd imagine because of the Ten Hag connection and the fact we're at this point showing the most interest in him as a club. It doesn't mean we're his preferred option.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Not necessarily - we're frontrunners I'd imagine because of the Ten Hag connection and the fact we're at this point showing the most interest in him as a club. It doesn't mean we're his preferred option.

Why can't City for example be the front runner because of Pep, CL football and trophies then? Unless you are telling me, we are the front runner because De Jong prefers working with ETH than others outside Barcelona?

 

[Kaos]

Why can't City for example be the front runner because of Pep, CL football and trophies then? Unless you are telling me, we are the front runner because De Jong prefers working with ETH than others outside Barcelona?

Because City haven't as of this point been vehemently chasing him like we have. The second they decide they're firmly interested that dynamic might change.

 

[Judas]

No one else is heavily being linked with him but yes of course that means he doesn’t want to come here and he’s obviously going elsewhere.

 

[sewey89]

Because City haven't as of this point been vehemently chasing him like we have. The second they decide they're firmly interested that dynamic might change.

This isn't football manager though. City aren't going to just wake up one day and decide to put a bid in. These things are decided and agreed way ahead of time. Whoever is interested, FDJ and his people will know by now. They'll also know the likelihood of the move

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Because City haven't as of this point been vehemently chasing him like we have. The second they decide they're firmly interested that dynamic might change.

This leads to what I said FDJ is more interested to join ETH's side than Man City; thus why they decided not to go as far as we are. It's almost like the Ronaldo one last season and as soon as United joined in, they gave up right away because they knew Ronaldo already chose us over City.

 

[bosnian_red]

Then what. He is not a 6 either. Maybe something in between. Great signing if he actually wanted to come, but we would need a real DM next to him to cover.

He's a #6, just a deep lying playmaker, not a defensive midfielder. He needs a defensive #8 next to him. Someone stronger physically and who will sit in position more rather than vacate the midfield, because De Jong loves moving with the ball. Just like Pirlo at Juve, he was a 6, but needed Marchisio to be more solid.

 

[Hammondo]

Then what. He is not a 6 either. Maybe something in between. Great signing if he actually wanted to come, but we would need a real DM next to him to cover.

He has played as a 6.

 

[Terranova]

He has played as a 6.

No, he played at 6, not as a 6. Big difference

 

[BrilliantOrange]

Can we please stop labeling players as a 6 or an 8 or whatever. Jorginho is considered a 6, but so was Nigel de Jong.. McTominay is considered an 8 but so is Verratti. It says nothing in a proper football discussion.

Stop talking numbers and start talking about players qualities, characteristics, limitations and argue how they would fit in a certain formation and in combination with other players...

 

[DJ_21]

Anybody think this is actually going to happen? Is it only us that are interested in him? If so it will make it easier to sign him if he’s defo getting sold.

 

[Terranova]

Can we please stop labeling players as a 6 or an 8 or whatever. Jorginho is considered a 6, but so was Nigel de Jong.. McTominay is considered an 8 but so is Verratti. It says nothing in a proper football discussion.

Stop talking numbers and start talking about players qualities, characteristics, limitations and argue how they would fit in a certain formation and in combination with other players...

The numbers are good to say when it's about the position on the pitch. But not if you're talking about the type of player. Most people seem to confuse the two.

 

[Giggs' right foot]

Anybody think this is actually going to happen? Is it only us that are interested in him? If so it will make it easier to sign him if he’s defo getting sold.

I don't. If Barça really want to sell, surely better teams than us will try and get him, and in that race - against say Bayern, PSG, City, etc. I don't have a lot of confidence.

 

[romufc]

Can we please stop labeling players as a 6 or an 8 or whatever. Jorginho is considered a 6, but so was Nigel de Jong.. McTominay is considered an 8 but so is Verratti. It says nothing in a proper football discussion.

Stop talking numbers and start talking about players qualities, characteristics, limitations and argue how they would fit in a certain formation and in combination with other players...

Thank you.

When people say we need a 6 but its different.

Its the profile if 6 you want, the way football is going now, positions differentiate in and out of possession.

So for example, in possession we would want a De Jong profile playing deep and picking the ball up and transitioning but whilst defending, we need a ball winner that is not Frenkie.

So we need to pair a DLP with a Ball winner which can be the profile of Fred.

 

[Hammondo]

No, he played at 6, not as a 6. Big difference

You mean hes played that "position" but not played the role that fits it?

 

[Terranova]

You mean hes played that "position" but not played the role that fits it?

6, 8 or 10 is more about the position on the field. A 6 can be a playmaker but is usually associated with a defensive midfielder. So that's where the confusion comes in. The 6 spot is only the deeper midfielder, no matter what role that midfielder is in. That's why you can have 2 6s or 2 8s etc.

 

[swedishgloryhunter]

So we need to pair a DLP with a Ball winner which can be the profile of Fred.

From what we have seen, do we really want fred that deep? I mean his resistance against press isn't great. If Fred is played he needs to be further up. Or I'm misunderstanding you.

 

[romufc]

From what we have seen, do we really want fred that deep? I mean his resistance against press isn't great. If Fred is played he needs to be further up. Or I'm misunderstanding you.

Apologies if that was not clear.

I meant that we need 2 different profiles a DLP and a ball winner. When we are attacking, building up play we need a DLP (Frenkie profile) to get the ball from Keeper / CB and transition the ball up field.

When we are defending, I want to see a ball winner (Fred's profile) to chase people, close them down, harass them and intercept the ball higher up.

So Fred is more of a box to box winning the ball back quickly and giving it to others.

 

[BusbyMalone]

A question for those scarred by Di Maria and worried by the fact he's not jumping at the chance to join United. Would you not be slightly concerned if he was jumping at the chance to join United and didn't need convincing to join us given how shite we've been?

We shouldn't be convincing players on money alone but I don't think there's much wrong in having to convince a player to join us, given our recent history. You've got to be wary of being played but it's something that happens all the time at other clubs.

I've been skeptical about this transfer (although I haven't brought up Di Maria), so as for the bold. Well, no. Why would I be? If a player is willing to come to this club despite our struggles because he believes in the new direction we're going in, then that can only be a positive. As opposed to what's seemingly happening now.

 

[Hammondo]

6, 8 or 10 is more about the position on the field. A 6 can be a playmaker but is usually associated with a defensive midfielder. So that's where the confusion comes in. The 6 spot is only the deeper midfielder, no matter what role that midfielder is in. That's why you can have 2 6s or 2 8s etc.

Well his main position on the field is usually about a 6, hes deep, often getting into defense, though because his main focus is moving the ball forward and possession, he moves forward a lot with possession.

So he needs a midfielder who can take defensive responsibility when he moves forward. So hes a bit unique I guess, but the way we balance the midfield can be a bit flexible. We can have a DM with him, or a b2b who can cover when needed.

 

[dutchred]

Never said he was. Just said he is a #8. So I Pogba...

Is never a number 8. Best position at Ajax was 6 with freedom to move forward. When he did that the Lassie Schoene dropped back to cover.

 

[Strootman's Finger]

Yes I did allude to that being one reason, but the fact that Ten Hag is supposedly calling him everyday pleading with him to join suggests him being manager isn't as big a pull as we'd have hoped it would be.

If we didn't have Ten Hag he wouldn't even answer the phone.