Frenkie de Jong | The last muppeting lap

Frenkie to United?

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FrankDrebin said:
Lets not delude ourselves he'd be coming here for the money too, especially in our current state.
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Yes and no. He doesn’t want to leave BARCA. Barca if reports are believed don’t want to lose him either but they might need to sell due to economic reasons. Either he stays or he just chooses which project he likes the look of the most out of surely the numerous offers he will have.

Hes in a catch 22 and technically doesn’t want to go anywhere else than where he already is. Our only real strength is we have a manager that knows him well and hopefully has a great relationship with him enough to convince him United is the place for him.
 
Massive Spanner said:
I see we are going down our usual approach of "just let the manager sign whoever he wants and don't bother to actually use our scouting department properly or try build from the top"

Worked out well in the past.
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Why would you appoint a manager and not let him sign the players he wants?
 
Shouting (ALL CAPS)
Redcafe: "Let's back ETH our new manager as much as possible so that he can implement his structure and playstyle into our team so that our club can finally have some sort of system after a decade!"

ETH wants a player that looked like one of the best in the world playing in his system, still doing well in Barcelona, but apparently had to be sold to balance their finances. The player looked at our shambolic club structure, horrendous on the pitch performance and toxic fanbase and is reluctant to join.

Redcafe: "feck HIM LETS ONLY SIGN PLAYERS THAT ARE DYING TO JOIN US! feck ETH feck HIS SYSTEM I DONT LIKE TO HEAR THAT A PLAYER IS WARY OF THE IDEA OF JOINING US! HOW DARE HE! LOOK AT THIS ONE EXAMPLE FROM 8 YEARS AGO, THIS IS DEFINITE PROOF THAT THIS PLAYER WILL BE A COMPLETE FAILURE FOR US!! NO feckING WAY I DO NOT LIKE THIS DO NOT SIGN HIM!!!!"
 
RedRover said:
Why would you appoint a manager and not let him sign the players he wants?
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The club should have its own view, example Klopp wanted Brandt and the club preferred Salah
I'm not opposed to De Jong though, I just hope we don't just sign only Ten Hag ex players, and we have spent the past 8 months doing extensive scouting and have our own view.
Otherwise we should just sack the scouting departments
 
Barca just need to be straight with him and say we need to sell you, you need to make other plans.

It sucks for him but that's life. The sooner he understands it the quicker he can get his head sorted.
 
dasty said:
Redcafe: "Let's back ETH our new manager as much as possible so that he can implement his structure and playstyle into our team so that our club can finally have some sort of system after a decade!"

ETH wants a player that looked like one of the best in the world playing in his system, still doing well in Barcelona, but apparently had to be sold to balance their finances. The player looked at our shambolic club structure, horrendous on the pitch performance and toxic fanbase and is reluctant to join.

Redcafe: "feck HIM LETS ONLY SIGN PLAYERS THAT ARE DYING TO JOIN US! feck ETH feck HIS SYSTEM I DONT LIKE TO HEAR THAT A PLAYER IS WARY OF THE IDEA OF JOINING US! HOW DARE HE! LOOK AT THIS ONE EXAMPLE FROM 8 YEARS AGO, THIS IS DEFINITE PROOF THAT THIS PLAYER WILL BE A COMPLETE FAILURE FOR US!! NO feckING WAY I DO NOT LIKE THIS DO NOT SIGN HIM!!!!"
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:lol: well said.
 
sullydnl said:
If he didn't need convincing to come here in our current state then he'd be an idiot. There's nothing wrong with having to actually put effort in to sell your club to a player and we shouldn't think we're above it.

If you convince him you convince him, if you don't you move on.
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Agree it’s a sign that he’s got a good mentality IMO
 
Meh, I don't necessarily blame the United fans being somewhat pessimistic of this deal , taking into account of our deals post SAF.
 
Cassidy said:
The club should have its own view, example Klopp wanted Brandt and the club preferred Salah
I'm not opposed to De Jong though, I just hope we don't just sign only Ten Hag ex players, and we have spent the past 8 months doing extensive scouting and have our own view.
Otherwise we should just sack the scouting departments
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Agree, the bold is a good example of how it should ideally work.

But it's also true that if you're the recruitment team and you're tasked with identifying players who will succeed under ETH's style of play, the very best of the players who have already succeeded under ETH will obviously tend to be suitable targets. Even if you entirely removed ETH's own opinion on who we should sign, it's easy to see why FDJ would be of interest to the club.

As long as we limit ourselves to the premium talent of ETH's former players then targeting them is fine.
 
FrankDrebin said:
Meh, I don't necessarily blame the United fans being somewhat pessimistic of this deal , taking into account of our deals post SAF.
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More question marks over this one than most of those other sagas, too. We don't really have the money and, with each passing year, our trophy wins become evermore a distant memory. No CL football next season either and the race for those places looks like being tougher than ever.

We'll find players who want to come here, but I doubt De Jong will be one of them.
 
FrankDrebin said:
Lets not delude ourselves he'd be coming here for the money too, especially in our current state.
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I'll be very surprise if he doesn't take a wage reduction if he does come though.

There's no way we'll pay 400k/w or whatever ridiculous wages he is currently on. If he does come, he'll be at the same wages as Sancho, 250k/w max
 
dasty said:
Redcafe: "Let's back ETH our new manager as much as possible so that he can implement his structure and playstyle into our team so that our club can finally have some sort of system after a decade!"

ETH wants a player that looked like one of the best in the world playing in his system, still doing well in Barcelona, but apparently had to be sold to balance their finances. The player looked at our shambolic club structure, horrendous on the pitch performance and toxic fanbase and is reluctant to join.

Redcafe: "feck HIM LETS ONLY SIGN PLAYERS THAT ARE DYING TO JOIN US! feck ETH feck HIS SYSTEM I DONT LIKE TO HEAR THAT A PLAYER IS WARY OF THE IDEA OF JOINING US! HOW DARE HE! LOOK AT THIS ONE EXAMPLE FROM 8 YEARS AGO, THIS IS DEFINITE PROOF THAT THIS PLAYER WILL BE A COMPLETE FAILURE FOR US!! NO feckING WAY I DO NOT LIKE THIS DO NOT SIGN HIM!!!!"
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:lol: :lol: :lol:
 

Thoroughly enjoyed that. Hopefully this dispels this notion that Frenkie isn’t or at least can’t be a DLP for us……

The impact his signing would make could be huge. Too many times do teams let our defenders have the ball and the ball just goes side to side and backwards before De Gea or Maguire hopelessly hoofs it forward. Fred tries to do this but fails miserably, which is why his best games have been further up the pitch.

Frenkie can be that bridge between Defense and Attack we are so badly missing in the build up.

Get it done chaps.

(Had to remove Media from quoted comment)
 
dasty said:
Redcafe: "Let's back ETH our new manager as much as possible so that he can implement his structure and playstyle into our team so that our club can finally have some sort of system after a decade!"

ETH wants a player that looked like one of the best in the world playing in his system, still doing well in Barcelona, but apparently had to be sold to balance their finances. The player looked at our shambolic club structure, horrendous on the pitch performance and toxic fanbase and is reluctant to join.

Redcafe: "feck HIM LETS ONLY SIGN PLAYERS THAT ARE DYING TO JOIN US! feck ETH feck HIS SYSTEM I DONT LIKE TO HEAR THAT A PLAYER IS WARY OF THE IDEA OF JOINING US! HOW DARE HE! LOOK AT THIS ONE EXAMPLE FROM 8 YEARS AGO, THIS IS DEFINITE PROOF THAT THIS PLAYER WILL BE A COMPLETE FAILURE FOR US!! NO feckING WAY I DO NOT LIKE THIS DO NOT SIGN HIM!!!!"
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:lol::lol:
 
RedRover said:
Why would you appoint a manager and not let him sign the players he wants?
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That's not what I said. Pretty much every successful big club has a transfer model that extends far beyond what the manager wants. It's a mix of both. They generally identify players that will fit within the mould of the club's long term objectives and provide a list to the manager. At Utd we seem to do the total opposite, just let the manager tell us who they want and not give a shit about long term planning.
 
Mmm-Qatarian said:
Equally, we've signed plenty of players who weren't all that well-known (Marcos Rojo, Matteo Darmian, Dan James etc.) who went on to be a bit shite.

In an ideal world you'd be able to sign players who are chomping at the bit to join us and also proven at the top level. But we're not in that position right now; we've just finished sixth in what was one of our worst seasons in a very long time. Players at the top level are going to need convincing to come here.

Sure, it doesn't always work out, but simply being "hungry to play for the club" is not enough either. I don't want us to end up with a team of McTominays just because they were desperate to play for us.
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That says more about our scouting department than anything else.

I'm not against signing De Jong, he's obviously a great footballer, but the idea that some are pedalling on here that there aren't genuine reasons to be concerned given our previous dealings that are similar to this one is stupid. It's fine to have doubts, I mean we've made so many unbelievable cock ups in the last decade, how could you not?
 
AdNani said:
People will really look for a negative in every thing we do.

We're looking likely to sign a top class midfielder, an area of desperate need and this is your thought?
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He doesn't want us. Have we not been through this before?

We will get another player who is not excited to be here and on astronomical wages. When does it stop?
 
Cassidy said:
The club should have its own view, example Klopp wanted Brandt and the club preferred Salah
I'm not opposed to De Jong though, I just hope we don't just sign only Ten Hag ex players, and we have spent the past 8 months doing extensive scouting and have our own view.
Otherwise we should just sack the scouting departments
Click to expand...

How do you know they don't?

You have no idea what has, and what is going on behind the scenes. The club have taken time to appoint Ten Hag and no doubt had discussions about his view on what would be needed and who he might want.

It's hardly a surprise that a manager will want a player he knows in a key position. Also, if he can't get him there'll be a list of other targets no doubt put together alongside others at the club.
 
Massive Spanner said:
I mean, wouldn't it be nice if we could do what Liverpool do and find players like Jota and Diaz who fit the system they built and don't cost a fortune, for once? Almost everyone we've been seriously linked to is a really obvious target or used to play for Ten Hag.
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Do you reckon the fact that we don’t have the system in place as of yet is specifically why Ten Hag is going after guys like De Jong and Timber? Maybe once he’s set things how we need to be playing with guys who know how to do so from the get-go, we’ll see some of those ‘smarter’ signings.
 
DWelbz19 said:
Do you reckon the fact that we don’t have the system in place as of yet is specifically why Ten Hag is going after guys like De Jong and Timber? Maybe once he’s set things how we need to be playing with guys who know how to do so from the get-go, we’ll see some of those ‘smarter’ signings.
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Wasn't that kinda my whole point? i.e. it's concerning that we aren't implementing any sort of system behind the scenes and still leaving everything up to the manager? No other modern club let's the manager have that sort of power, not even Pool and City and they have by far the two best managers in the world!
 
Massive Spanner said:
That's not what I said. Pretty much every successful big club has a transfer model that extends far beyond what the manager wants. It's a mix of both. They generally identify players that will fit within the mould of the club's long term objectives and provide a list to the manager. At Utd we seem to do the total opposite, just let the manager tell us who they want and not give a shit about long term planning.
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You said - I see we are going down our usual approach of "just let the manager sign whoever he wants and don't bother to actually use our scouting department properly or try build from the top" - which implies the scouting department don't want him. You have no idea whether that's true or not. Maybe they think he's brilliant but that we'd have bugger all chance of signing him.

Clearly it has to be a collaborative effort, however top managers will want to have the final say. You cannot bring in a manager in the position United are in, ask him to mould the team over a longer period of time and not back him in the transfer market. Who is more qualified than the manager to say what players he wants on the pitch to implement his own system?

Nobody outside the club know how it's worked at United in the past in terms of scouting and the relationship with the manager, but given some of the signings made (and especially with players given contract extensions to maintain value) I'd argue it's at least plausible that numerous decisions have been taken over various managers heads.

Whatever the case - it clearly hasn't worked. If this bloke wants a player who he knows well then I say, let him have him.
 
RedRover said:
You said - I see we are going down our usual approach of "just let the manager sign whoever he wants and don't bother to actually use our scouting department properly or try build from the top" - which implies the scouting department don't want him. You have no idea whether that's true or not. Maybe they think he's brilliant but that we'd have bugger all chance of signing him.

Clearly it has to be a collaborative effort, however top managers will want to have the final say. You cannot bring in a manager in the position United are in, ask him to mould the team over a longer period of time and not back him in the transfer market. Who is more qualified than the manager to say what players he wants on the pitch to implement his own system?

Nobody outside the club know how it's worked at United in the past in terms of scouting and the relationship with the manager, but given some of the signings made (and especially with players given contract extensions to maintain value) I'd argue it's at least plausible that numerous decisions have been taken over various managers heads.

Whatever the case - it clearly hasn't worked. If this bloke wants a player who he knows well then I say, let him have him.
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Eh, no, it doesn't.

It implies that our manager is the one who said he wanted and then went to our scouting department and they probably agreed. Essentially the opposite of what most clubs do which is identify targets and bring them to the manager.

And yeah this approach clearly hasn't worked in the past. That's my whole point. "if the manager wants a player then just let him have him". That's part of the reason our squad is so fecked, Christ.
 
Massive Spanner said:
That says more about our scouting department than anything else.

I'm not against signing De Jong, he's obviously a great footballer, but the idea that some are pedalling on here that there aren't genuine reasons to be concerned given our previous dealings that are similar to this one is stupid. It's fine to have doubts, I mean we've made so many unbelievable cock ups in the last decade, how could you not?
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It's absolutely fine to have doubts, and I apologise if my tone on the thread thus far has been somewhat dismissive. I just feel that if we're not going to sign players on the basis of these doubts we'd end up never signing anybody.

For me, Frenkie De Jong is a player who so perfectly offers what our midfield is missing that we need to accept the possible risks with this deal because the possible rewards are so high.
 
He can't be any worse than McTominay or Fred. So therefore I'm all for him. Anybody who gets those 2 numpties out of the team will make me happy.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
And we will continue being shite if we continue buying big name players who feel like they are doing us a favour by being here.
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Absolute nonsense. Any top player that wants to join us without a second thought would be more of a concern than top players willing to question our ambition.
 
Mmm-Qatarian said:
It's absolutely fine to have doubts, and I apologise if my tone on the thread thus far has been somewhat dismissive. I just feel that if we're not going to sign players on the basis of these doubts we'd end up never signing anybody.

For me, Frenkie De Jong is a player who so perfectly offers what our midfield is missing that we need to accept the possible risks with this deal because the possible rewards are so high.
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I hope so. Maybe I'm still butthurt from the Di Maria saga, seeing as he was a world class player and felt like exactly what we needed to but turned out to be a massive dickhead prima donna.
 
Dempsey19 said:
He can't be any worse than McTominay or Fred. So therefore I'm all for him. Anybody who gets those 2 numpties out of the team will make me happy.
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McFred was such an unbeatable boss that DVB had to go to a much lower level to grind and to raise his stats. Hope the same doesn't happen to Frenkie.
 
Prodigal7 said:
Absolute nonsense. Any top player that wants to join us without a second thought would be more of a concern than top players willing to question our ambition.
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This, I see it as a plus , he will know the wages on offer, the fact he needs convincing of the project is a good sign , no more mercenaries please
 
People really need to get over the Di Maria signing. Just because someone needs "convincing", doesn't mean they are just going to totally phone it in when they get there. If Ten Hag can convince him of the project and De Jong WILLINGLY chooses to sign here (it is his choice after all) then that can only be viewed as a positive.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Eh, no, it doesn't.

It implies that our manager is the one who said he wanted and then went to our scouting department and they probably agreed. Essentially the opposite of what most clubs do which is identify targets and bring them to the manager.

And yeah this approach clearly hasn't worked in the past. That's my whole point. "if the manager wants a player then just let him have him". That's part of the reason our squad is so fecked, Christ.
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Again, you have no idea if that's the case and it's assumed simply because the manager has worked with him before. This is a player who was highly coveted at Ajax, and then moved to Barcelona for a massive fee. The idea that the scouting department wouldn't have watched him and formed an opinion or had him on a potential list of potential targets at some stage in the last few years, I don't accept. If they don't know about him that indicates a much bigger problem.

I'm willing to bet plenty of manager go to the club and identify a player they want - especially if it's a player they know. If it should be a collaborative effort between the scouting team and the manager then I think its irrelevant on who's bit of paper a name first crops up. For me the manager should, within reason and certain limitations (budget/age of player etc) get what he thinks he needs to do his job.

Seems to me some fans are never happy. We appoint a top up and coming manager, hoping he can bring a style of play and philosophy to transform the club in the long term and when he wants to bring in a player who was an integral part of that system, it's a problem. I don't get it.
 
DWelbz19 said:
Do you reckon the fact that we don’t have the system in place as of yet is specifically why Ten Hag is going after guys like De Jong and Timber? Maybe once he’s set things how we need to be playing with guys who know how to do so from the get-go, we’ll see some of those ‘smarter’ signings.
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The state of transfers at the club over the last ten years, and the fact that certain people have already moved on this summer, indicates we don't have that system.
 
dasty said:
Redcafe: "Let's back ETH our new manager as much as possible so that he can implement his structure and playstyle into our team so that our club can finally have some sort of system after a decade!"

ETH wants a player that looked like one of the best in the world playing in his system, still doing well in Barcelona, but apparently had to be sold to balance their finances. The player looked at our shambolic club structure, horrendous on the pitch performance and toxic fanbase and is reluctant to join.

Redcafe: "feck HIM LETS ONLY SIGN PLAYERS THAT ARE DYING TO JOIN US! feck ETH feck HIS SYSTEM I DONT LIKE TO HEAR THAT A PLAYER IS WARY OF THE IDEA OF JOINING US! HOW DARE HE! LOOK AT THIS ONE EXAMPLE FROM 8 YEARS AGO, THIS IS DEFINITE PROOF THAT THIS PLAYER WILL BE A COMPLETE FAILURE FOR US!! NO feckING WAY I DO NOT LIKE THIS DO NOT SIGN HIM!!!!"
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First of all, 9/10 rant. Well done. The straw man was particularly strong here.

Second of all, given our need to strengthen at least three or four starting XI positions this summer, do you really think that it's idiotic to pose the question on an online forum whether it's the best move to spend two thirds of the reported €120m transfer budget on one player who by all accounts would prefer to stay at his current location as opposed to joining us?

He might turn out great, and I'm sure EtH believes that otherwise he wouldn't go for him knowing how much of his transfer budget would be spent on him, but we also know that if he gets FdJ and one other player in this summer (due to the constraints of the transfer budget) people will be on his back for not strengthening with enough players. Imagine then that FdJ doesn't perform to the standard that we'd require from an €80m player, either through lack of motivation or even through no fault of his own, but rather the players around him, then we wouldn't have progressed that much as much as a team and he'd be an easy target for criticism, just like Jadon Sancho is right now.

So is it really that idiotic to be a little bit worried about how such a massive transfer for one player might turn out, given our need to improve the squad in multiple positions? It's not as if we're in a position where we could be vetoing the transfer, we're just expressing some concern on an internet forum.
 
RedRover said:
How do you know they don't?

You have no idea what has, and what is going on behind the scenes. The club have taken time to appoint Ten Hag and no doubt had discussions about his view on what would be needed and who he might want.

It's hardly a surprise that a manager will want a player he knows in a key position. Also, if he can't get him there'll be a list of other targets no doubt put together alongside others at the club.
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Where have I said they haven't?
 
chris123 said:
People really need to get over the Di Maria signing. Just because someone needs "convincing", doesn't mean they are just going to totally phone it in when they get there. If Ten Hag can convince him of the project and De Jong WILLINGLY chooses to sign here (it is his choice after all) then that can only be viewed as a positive.
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Yep, it's really about what convinces him if he is indeed convinced. If it's by just throwing massive amounts of money then that is a concern but if he was that keen to join us without any concerns I would presume it was because we were offering stupid wages. If he has reservations over how poor we have been over the last 9 years then that is reasonable, we haven't been a club that players who are serious about winning the biggest trophies should join, but if Ten Hag can convince him of the plan and that there is a pathway to success in the next few years (albeit it's highly unlikely in the next 2-3 years) and that persuades him then there's no issue with that at all.
 
Ten Hag will convince him and he'll sign
 
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