Frenkie de Jong | The last muppeting lap

Frenkie to United?

  • Total voters
    2,033
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
pocco said:
Yeah pretty much, but on the previous page there's people saying "finally some positive news", when it looks like this is still at the stage it was over a month ago. If those tweets said "nothing changed. No movement in over a month now" then they'd be interpreted for what they are. It seems any tweet with the words "de Jong" and "MUFC" are treated as good news now because people are just desperate to see it mentioned again.
Click to expand...

Yeah, there's nothing new to add to the situation really. But for me what it does is, give context to all those people who feel FdJ doesn't want to come, or that we are bidding for a player who doesn't want to come to United.

We have to take the situation for what it is and use some logic to it. That's what the tweet does for me.
 
padzilla said:
I don't understand why Di Jong can't join us and then sue Barca for the money he is owed?

Or is it a case they won't let him leave unless he waives that fee. To be honest, it sounds like Barca are behaving despicably here.

Owing an employee unpaid wages but still going around hiring new employees on massive wages - almost flaunting it in his face.

They really should be ashamed to behave like this.
Click to expand...
you'd think UEFA would step in and do something... but of course they are pretty good at doing sod all.
 
TwoSheds said:
None of these stories are news. Here's the facts:
  • The deal may or may not happen
Click to expand...

:D

SEI_108013145-e1654528607839-640x360.jpg
 
mitchmouse said:
I think it's time for Arnold and Murtough to say something, one way or the other. At least "we are still confident"...
Click to expand...

While the sane among us would take that at face value, many on here would ridicule them for making such a statement and not "moving on from a clearly dead deal"

Their last 'brief' was that they're willing to play the long game and that we were confident. Until we hear otherwise, I guess we just take that as the current stance.
 
McGrathsipan said:
for the sake of the conversation I dont think this will happen, I never have but as far as the team is concerned, you reckon ETH can be patient etc, but what if it doesnt happen? What happens when the realisation kicks in a week before the end of the window that we have been patient all summer and the player doesnt join?

IMO we should have moved on by now or maybe ETH has said be patient as he has no other players for midfield in his mind, he has just accepted he will get FDJ or its MCFred!!
Click to expand...
That's what good managers do. They make the most of their situation and work around it.

Sure he would love FDJ, but maybe he can take Iqbal under his wing and turn him into a similar level. He's showing the same type of skillset, and we've seen on pre season he's looking like he's ready to step up.

The same with Garner, good year in the championship and could be ready for more minutes.

We know it's not ideal but the situation isn't completely awful. A midfield of Fred/Fernandes/Eriksen is still quite handy.


mitchmouse said:
I think it's time for Arnold and Murtough to say something, one way or the other. At least "we are still confident"...
Click to expand...
Why? how will that help the situation? if they say they are confident and the transfer fails everybody blames them.

If they say they aren't confident they are labelled a joke and embarrasing. They'll never win.

Best is to just keep quiet and keep working at it in the background.
 
sewey89 said:
While the sane among us would take that at face value, many on here would ridicule them for making such a statement and not "moving on from a clearly dead deal"

Their last 'brief' was that they're willing to play the long game and that we were confident. Until we hear otherwise, I guess we just take that as the current stance.
Click to expand...
I hadn't seen that as a direct quote. Then, yes, we need to keep plugging away. Would be great to know that they've also spoken to the player but that's a bit too much to expect to be fair to them
 
Is Frenkie de Jong the answer to our midfield problems or the type of player many United supporters think he is (holding or defensive midfielder in a pivot)?

I start wondering when I read this article: https://barcauniversal.com/no-time-to-pivot-evaluating-frenkie-de-jongs-role-at-barcelona/amp/

Compared to the world’s elite pivots, he simply does not have the defensive chops in terms of volume or efficiency to hold down that role in front of the backline himself.

Additionally, the former Ajax man comes in with significantly lower tallies for metrics like interceptions and aerial duels won than Busquets, Manchester City’s Rodri, and Real Madrid’s Casemiro.

Even if you tried to consider development, things look bleak. De Jong has never even shown defensive capabilities compared to fellow non-pivots that would flag him as someone potentially capable of a shift into a lone deeper position. This is reflected on the pitch whenever he is forced into the role.

Maybe we should move on and look for other alternatives?
 
padzilla said:
I don't understand why Di Jong can't join us and then sue Barca for the money he is owed?

Or is it a case they won't let him leave unless he waives that fee. To be honest, it sounds like Barca are behaving despicably here.

Owing an employee unpaid wages but still going around hiring new employees on massive wages - almost flaunting it in his face.

They really should be ashamed to behave like this.
Click to expand...

Apparently De Jong agreed to be paid most of his 2020/21 wages in a new contract at 2022 onwards so Barca are not obligated to pay if he leaves. The only leverage he has is to simply stay and do nothing and start picking up over 20 million per year. Barca are then forced to either pay him as per his existing contract which is over 20m per year until 2026 or come to some large settlement of all or most of his past wages he agreed to backend to help the club.

Barca have a choice paying off his 17m in past wages, getting a transfer fee of 70m and saving 70m in wages minus the ~17m he's owed or start paying his 2022-26 salary of over 20m a year and around 89m in 4 years. The lesser of two evils is to pay him his past wages so he can leave.

De Jong could risk suing later but that could be very messy. I think he'd win but quite stressful and not something our club should want hanging over a player while playing for us or any other club for that matter.
 
Polar said:
Is Frenkie de Jong the answer to our midfield problems or the type of player many United supporters think he is (holding or defensive midfielder in a pivot)?

I start wondering when I read this article: https://barcauniversal.com/no-time-to-pivot-evaluating-frenkie-de-jongs-role-at-barcelona/amp/

Maybe we should move on and look for other alternatives?
Click to expand...

We need two midfielders, Frenkie is a clear upgrade on Fred, but we also need a clear upgrade on McT to challenge for the title. However a trio of Frenkie - Bruno - Fred/McT is a solid midfield against most opposition and should be strong enough for a top 4 finish. Which means we can wait on the second midfielder until next season.

Frenkie - Bruno - Rice next season (one can hope?) Would be a phenomenal midfield.
 
padzilla said:
I don't understand why Di Jong can't join us and then sue Barca for the money he is owed?

Or is it a case they won't let him leave unless he waives that fee. To be honest, it sounds like Barca are behaving despicably here.

Owing an employee unpaid wages but still going around hiring new employees on massive wages - almost flaunting it in his face.

They really should be ashamed to behave like this.
Click to expand...

The problem is he is not actually owed the money as such.

He signed a new deal spreading out the deferred wages over the remainder of that new contract. If he stays on his current deal he will eventually get that money back.

The issue is Barcelona don't want that, they want him to take a further cut, and, it appears, forego the 17 mill "deferred", or leave with no deferred pay at all, or only a small portion as a "gesture of goodwill" on their part.

The latter of which is hilarious really!
 
Polar said:
Is Frenkie de Jong the answer to our midfield problems or the type of player many United supporters think he is (holding or defensive midfielder in a pivot)?

I start wondering when I read this article: https://barcauniversal.com/no-time-to-pivot-evaluating-frenkie-de-jongs-role-at-barcelona/amp/

Compared to the world’s elite pivots, he simply does not have the defensive chops in terms of volume or efficiency to hold down that role in front of the backline himself.

Additionally, the former Ajax man comes in with significantly lower tallies for metrics like interceptions and aerial duels won than Busquets, Manchester City’s Rodri, and Real Madrid’s Casemiro.

Even if you tried to consider development, things look bleak. De Jong has never even shown defensive capabilities compared to fellow non-pivots that would flag him as someone potentially capable of a shift into a lone deeper position. This is reflected on the pitch whenever he is forced into the role.

Maybe we should move on and look for other alternatives?
Click to expand...
It’s not about what he brings from a defensive POV. It’s about what he brings in possession, and he’ll cost so much because you can’t really find players who can bring what he offers to a team.
 
padzilla said:
I don't understand why Di Jong can't join us and then sue Barca for the money he is owed?

Or is it a case they won't let him leave unless he waives that fee. To be honest, it sounds like Barca are behaving despicably here.

Owing an employee unpaid wages but still going around hiring new employees on massive wages - almost flaunting it in his face.

They really should be ashamed to behave like this.
Click to expand...

I would assume it’s because he’s not strictly due the money at the moment. He gets an increase in salary throughout his contract to cover, and leaving means he won’t see that out. Could be wrong, but that’s the way I’ve read it.
 
pocco said:
I don't see how those tweets are even remotely positive. Almost implies that FDJ hasn't discussed a transfer with us and instead it's his agent. FDJ wants his money and as far as he's concerned he'll only get that by staying on his current deal. Barca won't pay it if he leaves, that much is obvious now.
Click to expand...

The player won’t have discussed a transfer with us as it’s illegal. What the tweets suggest it that it’s been discussed via his agent and there’s indication it can happen. The agent will have spoken to the player obviously.
 
mitchmouse said:
I think it's time for Arnold and Murtough to say something, one way or the other. At least "we are still confident"...
Click to expand...
But why would they actually do that? There's no good business reason to openly talk about deals that are still in progress, certainly not deals where there are other factors such as deferred wages. Would you talk about it if you were in charge of this? Of course not, it's called keeping your cards close to your chest. Any statements from either side could affect the path forward. People are just impatient.
 
Baxter said:
I would assume it’s because he’s not strictly due the money at the moment. He gets an increase in salary throughout his contract to cover, and leaving means he won’t see that out. Could be wrong, but that’s the way I’ve read it.
Click to expand...

When does his new deal kick in? I would have assumed it was 1st July?

That probably will focus FCB mind - when they see the full negotiated amount coming out of their bank account into FDJs. At the moment they are playing like it's FM but when the accountants show them actual money leaving and their lawyers show them the reality of FFP... Hopefully by then some semblance of sanity will kick in.
 
Polar said:
Is Frenkie de Jong the answer to our midfield problems or the type of player many United supporters think he is (holding or defensive midfielder in a pivot)?

I start wondering when I read this article: https://barcauniversal.com/no-time-to-pivot-evaluating-frenkie-de-jongs-role-at-barcelona/amp/

Compared to the world’s elite pivots, he simply does not have the defensive chops in terms of volume or efficiency to hold down that role in front of the backline himself.

Additionally, the former Ajax man comes in with significantly lower tallies for metrics like interceptions and aerial duels won than Busquets, Manchester City’s Rodri, and Real Madrid’s Casemiro.

Even if you tried to consider development, things look bleak. De Jong has never even shown defensive capabilities compared to fellow non-pivots that would flag him as someone potentially capable of a shift into a lone deeper position. This is reflected on the pitch whenever he is forced into the role.

Maybe we should move on and look for other alternatives?
Click to expand...
This is how ETH wants to play us. And if it’s not FDJ then it will be developing someone at the club already. He’s said this. We need to move away from thinking there is no time for buying an alternative, that’s not his plan
 
TheReligion said:
The player won’t have discussed a transfer with us as it’s illegal. What the tweets suggest it that it’s been discussed via his agent and there’s indication it can happen. The agent will have spoken to the player obviously.
Click to expand...

Doesn't that fly in the face of what certain posters have been hanging onto though, that FDJ and ETH have been talking regularly? I said a while ago that I suspect a)We obviously want him, b) Barca have told us they will sell if he can be convinced to leave and c)his agent is pushing it slightly because he has a good relationship with us. Basically that the three parties want him to move but he doesn't, and that's the crucial part. I also believe that Barca would be happy to keep if he reduces his wages, but they would simply rather have Bernardo Silva if given the choice. I've seen nothing to suggest they are forcing him out.
 
pocco said:
Doesn't that fly in the face of what certain posters have been hanging onto though, that FDJ and ETH have been talking regularly? I said a while ago that I suspect a)We obviously want him, b) Barca have told us they will sell if he can be convinced to leave and c)his agent is pushing it slightly because he has a good relationship with us. Basically that the three parties want him to move but he doesn't, and that's the crucial part. I also believe that Barca would be happy to keep if he reduces his wages, but they would simply rather have Bernardo Silva if given the choice. I've seen nothing to suggest they are forcing him out.
Click to expand...

They may well have had a chat on the phone. I think it’s clear that have a relationship. His agent also has a positive relationship with United given the Malacia move.

Everyone, including you, are speculating but the most logical view is United have been told he’s willing to move to the club given the facts we know.

As far Barca not trying to force him out I’m confused by your view there. It’s the most blatant example of it I’ve ever seen so baffled you can’t.

If Barca wanted him then surely there’s better ways to tempt him to stay and sign a new deal than benching him and publicly making him a back up CB? And publicly agreeing and pushing for him to move? And buying new players in his position?
 
Polar said:
Is Frenkie de Jong the answer to our midfield problems or the type of player many United supporters think he is (holding or defensive midfielder in a pivot)?

I start wondering when I read this article: https://barcauniversal.com/no-time-to-pivot-evaluating-frenkie-de-jongs-role-at-barcelona/amp/

Compared to the world’s elite pivots, he simply does not have the defensive chops in terms of volume or efficiency to hold down that role in front of the backline himself.

Additionally, the former Ajax man comes in with significantly lower tallies for metrics like interceptions and aerial duels won than Busquets, Manchester City’s Rodri, and Real Madrid’s Casemiro.

Even if you tried to consider development, things look bleak. De Jong has never even shown defensive capabilities compared to fellow non-pivots that would flag him as someone potentially capable of a shift into a lone deeper position. This is reflected on the pitch whenever he is forced into the role.

Maybe we should move on and look for other alternatives?
Click to expand...

He's a very niche player. It has been covered quite a bit earlier in the thread, but he's pretty much the epitome of a 'luxury' player in that he wants to occupy areas where he doesn't perform the typical role needed for those areas. He basically wants lots of touches on the ball, he plays deep so the defence has to go through him, he tries to carry the ball forward to then be involved in attacks, but leaves that 'CDM' area empty when he does so. ETH himself has spoke about how difficult it is to fit him into a team.

He is in no way a defensive player, even though he plays deep. He wants to try to dictate play with the game ahead of him. This is why he struggles at Barca because he often plays advanced in tighter spaces and facing his own defence. He's not got the game for that.
 
pocco said:
He's a very niche player. It has been covered quite a bit earlier in the thread, but he's pretty much the epitome of a 'luxury' player in that he wants to occupy areas where he doesn't perform the typical role needed for those areas. He basically wants lots of touches on the ball, he plays deep so the defence has to go through him, he tries to carry the ball forward to then be involved in attacks, but leaves that 'CDM' area empty when he does so. ETH himself has spoke about how difficult it is to fit him into a team.

He is in no way a defensive player, even though he plays deep. He wants to try to dictate play with the game ahead of him. This is why he struggles at Barca because he often plays advanced in tighter spaces and facing his own defence. He's not got the game for that.
Click to expand...
Frenkie is a rich man's Aaron Ramsey.
 
TheReligion said:
They may well have had a chat on the phone. I think it’s clear that have a relationship. His agent also has a positive relationship with United given the Malacia move.

Everyone, including you, are speculating but the most logical view is United have been told he’s willing to move to the club given the facts we know.

As far Barca not trying to force him out I’m confused by your view there. It’s the most blatant example of it I’ve ever seen so baffled you can’t.
Click to expand...

Is that the most logical view though? When you look at the wider picture, I'm not so sure. New house, dream club, fiancé who apparently loves it there etc etc. Constant reports from practically every journalist that he'd rather stay. It seems to me that somebody, probably his agent, is trying to ease him out of there. I suspect United have been told by Barca and his agent that they think he will give in eventually, and FDJ has been polite and said he'd consider it if he had to leave.

I don't think Barca are forcing the issue. They're now saying they've accepted no offer. They play him every game in pre-season. The fact he went on tour (surprised Arnold and Murtough according to reports). They're apparently offering him a new contract, albeit on reduced terms. These aren't the actions of a club forcing him out, in my opinion.
 
pocco said:
He's a very niche player. It has been covered quite a bit earlier in the thread, but he's pretty much the epitome of a 'luxury' player in that he wants to occupy areas where he doesn't perform the typical role needed for those areas. He basically wants lots of touches on the ball, he plays deep so the defence has to go through him, he tries to carry the ball forward to then be involved in attacks, but leaves that 'CDM' area empty when he does so. ETH himself has spoke about how difficult it is to fit him into a team.

He is in no way a defensive player, even though he plays deep. He wants to try to dictate play with the game ahead of him. This is why he struggles at Barca because he often plays advanced in tighter spaces and facing his own defence. He's not got the game for that.
Click to expand...
Which is worrying, isn't it? Especially when we spent 5 years to somehow find a way to bring the best out of Pogba, who was also somewhat of a nightmare to built a team around. One way or the other, we have to bring in a DM as well. Be it parallel to FDJ or instead of him, when things don't work out.
 
NZT-One said:
Which is worrying, isn't it? Especially when we spent 5 years to somehow find a way to bring the best out of Pogba, who was also somewhat of a nightmare to built a team around. One way or the other, we have to bring in a DM as well. Be it parallel to FDJ or instead of him, when things don't work out.
Click to expand...
difference being Ten Hag has got the best out of him previously.
 
I wonder how us constantly briefing the media that he has assured us he will come, is being perceived by Frenkie and his agent? They're out there saying they don't want to leave (for legal reasons, according the the Caf) and we're out here saying it's a lie. Such a weird situation.
 
NZT-One said:
Which is worrying, isn't it? Especially when we spent 5 years to somehow find a way to bring the best out of Pogba, who was also somewhat of a nightmare to built a team around. One way or the other, we have to bring in a DM as well. Be it parallel to FDJ or instead of him, when things don't work out.
Click to expand...

I said myself at the beginning of all this that he could potentially be a Pogba type problem. The only positive, well pretty big positive, is that we have the man that has had him performing before.

The question for me is if we have the correct partner for him. Personally, I think we needed a stronger defensive type midfielder aswell. The idea of FDJ + Fred, McT or Eriksen doesn't fill me with confidence. The only time I've seen midfields like this being used is by teams that paly 3 at the back (Wolves, for example). Even the best teams in the country in City and Liverpool both have that profile of player in their midfield. It seems a bit overconfident of us, possibly naive, to think we can do without.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.