Name three cheaper attainable midfielders with De Jong's quality.
Frenkie de Jong | The last muppeting lap
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'My belief is that De Jong should be played alongside a no.8 rather than a no.6 and THAT THAT WAS THE CASE AT AJAX THAT SEASON.' - everything I've said has been about the Ajax setup and your failure to replicate it. Ten Hag did not play a no.6 with a no.6. He did not play with a midfield configuration that was particularly different from the norm. Schone did not have a more disciplined role than De Jong. Schone positioning himself as a deep lying midfielder doesn't mean he played like a first function midfielder. A no.6 (first function midfielder) absolutely should be played alongside a no.8 (second function midfielder), but I thought Schone's role was more no.8 because I observed him playing as a second function midfielder in their Champions League Knockout Round games. De Jong's role was not much much deeper than a normal deep lying midfielder. De Jong did not play deeper than centre back. I was not tricked into thinking one player went forward because another player moved backwards.
Xavi would be BETTER complimented by Pirlo than Modric or Veron. De Jong would be BETTER complimented by Xavi or Modric than Pirlo or Busquets. And De Jong has as much to offer in defence as Busquets does.
Frenkie goes to Holywood (Disneyland)
All you have been telling me is that A no.6 (first function midfielder) absolutely should be played alongside a no.8 (second function midfielder). By using that ''absolutely'' word you are not talking about the Ajax 18/19 but you were more referring to fixed principle that you had watched how team's midfield should operate and refuse to accept that a manager could make it work in different way. Why don't you provide proofs of how Ajax 18/19 play. Using Busquets and Xavi as example doesn't prove anything about how Schone and De Jong play in 18/19 season either. So it doesn't work like that mate.
In 18/19, Schone doesn't get license to go forward, while FDJ gets the roam in many areas, sometime the same line as CB, same like as Schone, and even sometime deeper than defender like a modern libero he also allows to run with the ball from the defense line. I had shown this with the screen shots as proof or even video of how Ajax 18/19 played. Your turn to prove it wrong if that's not how they played in 18/19.
Better or not better is not the point here, the point here is that if Xavi plays alongside Pirlo then one of them would be sacrificed because both like to dictate the tempo, that's their speciality. The same with FDJ if he plays with Xavi or Modric, one of them would be sacrificed. Remember Alonso and Modric? Modric was at one time voted as La Liga worst signing because of this. So being better and not is irrelevant when there is proof that Modric was voted as La Liga worst signing because Alonso and Modric didn't work. Busquets' reading the game and positioning are world class, can't believe some people still underrate Busquets defensive aspect.
We would never solve everything in one summer window. IMO sorting out the midfield issue and signing new centre back should be the first summer window's task. Therefore, £60m for De Jong is ideal as part of the midfield rebuild.
That's what I'm saying: if we want a player, we need to send the people to get it done quickly and quietly. Just fecking pay up, get the player, no muss, no fuss.
I love him as a player but I fear City will get him. They have the CL and he seems like the perfect fit for them if one or both of Bernardo and Gundogan leave and they want a more defensive option to play in a 3 with De Bruyne and Rodri, and he can be the backup for Rodri too with Fernandinho leaving, which would give Pep the option of playing with a more offensively skilled #6 like he did (foolishly) in that CL final against Chelsea.
They also don't really have any major squad positions to fill apart from buying a quality left-back and getting half the money for that by selling Zinchenko to a team that wants him to start in midfield, and the only really expensive one I can see them going for is Theo Hernandez, and I don't think Milan would sell for anything but a massive figure, so they'll just sign someone cheaper like Raum, Sosa or Cucarella (the most expensive, but you'd think Brighton would take 35M and like a 2 year loan for Cole Palmer).
They also don't really have any major squad positions to fill apart from buying a quality left-back and getting half the money for that by selling Zinchenko to a team that wants him to start in midfield, and the only really expensive one I can see them going for is Theo Hernandez, and I don't think Milan would sell for anything but a massive figure, so they'll just sign someone cheaper like Raum, Sosa or Cucarella (the most expensive, but you'd think Brighton would take 35M and like a 2 year loan for Cole Palmer).
Haaland has release clause. As soon as both City and Haaland and his agent are in agreement then it's an easy deal, just active the release clause. FDJ's case doesn't have release clause (well, he has like 500m or some ridiculous number). So the club needs to deal with player, agent, and Barcelona.
Still need someone to do the pressing and win the ball alongside him, Fred could maybe work but feel we need an upgrade
Yeah definitely fear a City approach especially with Fernandinho leaving and Gundogan
Overpaying for players is how we ended up in this shit. He doesn't want to come? Whatever. Move on to the next Frenkie is not the only midfielder in the world and he certainly isn't the only midfielder to be able to replace McFred. United should stop overspending on every shiny toy, it has gotten us nowhere. Back in the days of SAF, sometimes we would spend some serious money on a great player, but often times we took talents that were unknown or were just getting their stride. Klopp is employing the same strategy at Liverpool. Bayern, who are the best run club in the world, almost never break the bank on players. And I understand their position as hegemon in the Bundesliga gives them certain perks, but still - they've done a lot without getting crazy
At the end of the day, we can't just throw money at every club like it is in unlimited supply. We're not CIty and PSG and we have to come to terms with that.
@sherrinford I have enjoyed your Back and forth with UNITED ACADEMY , keeping on the same conversation do you believe Mejbri is somebody whose skill set could in theory compliment De Jong or could be developed into that player by United .
Did you see all the reports from English media or Barca media, their manager and their president?
I know feck all but I'd say they'd fit together in a three man midfield (no Bruno no no)
Raphina is a bit overrated imo. Anthony is a bit small and Ralf correctly diagnosed United’s squad weakness as a physical problem
I haven't seen the stats myself but based on people I trust here, Raphinia's general game is rought around the edges, much more so than is the case with top players, somewhat in the Bruno mold of risk taking / depending on moments rather than consistent excellence. Whereas Antony has a higher ceiling.
Again I wouldn't say I've seen enough to say myself but the above is what I understand to probably be the case. I have of course seen more of Raphinha and he strikes me as squad player material at a big club rather than a starter. Someone who can do exciting things but would be an impact player at a better team rather than someone you rely on for consistently great displays.
Ralf was not fully correct with that. Our problem is both a technical and physical one. In midfield and fullbacks for example we have feck all in terms of technical ability (Shaw aside). Physicality is an issue but I believe he's talking about more about intensity, stamina, legs and tenacity than pure physical strengthen. City have no real physical strength in their front 6 aside from Rodri but it works because everyone puts in so much. Someone like B Silva is a good example. Tiny bugger but brilliant off the ball. Mjebri will hopefully be in that category for us.
Bruno is a interesting case I just don't believe him in the middle would ever allow us to control games properly but would have to wait and see how Ten Hag is planning to use him and how he responds to better coaching and clear structure hopefully he improves and we don't have another expensive mistake to regret.
Not in a double pivot and especially not in a high defensive line in the EPL.
Hannibal can be developed as a similar player in a deeper role imo, and at Monaco in their u17s, he was utilised to initiate attacks from deeper and was the conduit who knitted everything together. But in the EPL it's important to have someone next to you with a strong defensive presence when out off possession. Because if you don't, then having the creative freedom to drop back into the backline or advance the play via dribbling the ball up-field will be a issue against opposition counters imo. And both de Jong and Hannibal are good at dribbling the ball and advancing play.
It's important to pair a first function midfielder on the ball with a first function midfielder off the ball in a high defensive line. Or what we'll happen is that a large space in such a high risk approach won't be controlled against opposition transitions.
So someone like a Tchouameni would potentially provide the presence/balance defensively whilst also having the ability to be more than useful in possession in a team that will look to play the game in the opponents half with and without the ball.
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Ideally, I want 2 midfielders and 1 centre back to be prioritised this summer to sort out the midfield issues and centre back issue. I consider those areas as the spine for ETH to build his team imo and we are currently have big problems in those areas.
He looks genuinely miserable in that video 
All this 'first function' and 'second function' midfielder stuff is new to me - what exactly does it mean?
maybe the conversation was in a hotel and the FoyerVoyeur was there?
First function of a midfielder on the ball in a deeper role is the ability to make plays/dictate play etc. And their attributes on the ball standout. So for example Frenkie de Jong and Hannibal fit into this category potentially due to their standout attributes in possession.
First function midfielder in the defensive transition is what a midfielder does off the ball. So someone like a Aurelien Tchouaméni whose defensive attributes are a standout make him a first function midfielder to control a large space against opposition transitions off the ball, whilst also being more than useful on the ball. So pairing both profiles in a team that wants to commit players in attack has the potential to create a well balanced midfield.
But in reality they're just words to describe/interpret different roles on the pitch with and without the ball.
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totally agree Bojan. He'd be constantly injured, depressed with the weather, going somewhere sunny for medical, be outstanding 10% of time, then go missing. I don't know if I could cope with that, it would give me flashbacks.
I agree, think he's the real deal and seems like he'd handle bigger expectations and CL teams.
I agree, but only to a certain degree. We needed two transfer windows to get f**** Herrera, two transfer windows to sign Jadon. Not to mention players we chased and never got (Sneijder topic is still a laughing stock on the forum). ETH wants signings to be made when he takes the charge, do you really think we'll manage that? Not in this Universe
Thanks very much!
People said much the same that about Fletcher and Butt. And look at the likes of Henderson (and to an extent Milner) at Liverpool. Don't tell me they are world class but fit a system with top class players next to them. Given the number of players who seem disinterested in the shirt right now, McT is not one I'd usher out the door in a hurry
What now?
Not sure people understand just how highly rated he was in the academy. Fletcher got a lot of stick because he was being integrated into the team at the same time as Ronaldo, for long periods we alternated between them out wide, which didn’t really suit Fletcher (or the fans). He grew into a sublime player where we, due to his illness, barely got to see glimpses of just how brilliant he could’ve been over time
I've not really ever watched FDJ play much, so I can't comment on how good he would be for us or how he improves us.
The main thing that worries me is that most, if not all reports, say he doesn't really want to come. But then I think, Ten Hag only wants players who really want to play for the club. So, hopefully if we do get Frenkie, he really does want to come.
The main thing that worries me is that most, if not all reports, say he doesn't really want to come. But then I think, Ten Hag only wants players who really want to play for the club. So, hopefully if we do get Frenkie, he really does want to come.
Are you serious? Those players were way more talented than Scott. McTominay is 25 and has taken over from Lingard as the oldest “young player” around. Milner broke Rooney’s record (or vice versa) as the youngest player in the league. He had bundles of talent and showed it early. Henderson was the jewel of the Sunderland academy and everyone knew his name before going to Liverpool.
What about players who really want to play for the manager? That would still benefit the club though.
Compared to McT these players are Diego Armando maradona. Ffs even Savage was a better player then Mct
For the record I struggle the hype surrounding fletch and Butt. They were average players who were lucky to be carried by exceptional ones
I agree with this.
All it takes is a world class manager like SAF and Klopp to have average to good players playing great.
SAF & Klopp had players like Cleverley, Butt, Fletcher, Oshea, Kagawa, Milner, Henderson and so many more playing an above standard than a manager like Ole or Rangick can. Karius & chamberlain was getting to CL finals.
Who the feck made up that first and second function midfielder nonsense? What did you use and can I get it somewhere?
Tchouameni ideally, but wouldn't Konrad Laimer be a good, cheap shout? If indeed Tchouameni is off to somewhere else.
Yeah he would but fear is Bayern bound
Seems like Bayern are all in for Laimer and already have Kimmich, Goretzka, Gravenburch and Sabitzer plus Roca and Tolisso are still around which is why I don’t buy any links Bayern have to De Jong and why they won’t be in for Tchouameni either.
With Barca making a 32m bid for Lewandowski they have been guaranteed income, but from where? don’t forget his wages won’t be low.
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