Yes definaltey - he was the reason Blind was here
Frenkie de Jong| Off to Barca - Confirmed
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Yes definaltey - he was the reason Blind was here
Based on what? The only downside I can think of is that he's not mature or experienced enough, or isn't instantly able to give that 'consistency' Mourinho keeps banging on about in press conferences. But then again even Pogba couldn't give us that and he supposedly ticked all boxes of a 'Mourinho player'.
Saying he's not a Mourinho player because he only wants extremely tall and strong players is pure nonsense. Countless of examples out there like I've mentioned, and have we conveniently forgotten that at one point he won the CL with the midgets Cambiasso and Sneijder being 2/3 of his midfield? Ricardo Carvalho was probably his favourite defender considering they worked together at three different clubs, yet people make it sound like Robert Huth was his chosen one and he doesn't give a feck about defenders being good on the ball or adventurous.
On top of that Frenkie's not weak at all. 180 cm's means he's not even short, he actually held his own playing as a CB in various big Eredivisie matches and even in Europe. He's a pure footballer yes, but you also saw that tackle on Kanté right? If anything it's surprising he shows so many great defensive instincts too given his profile and relatively little top flight experience.
I'd say we'd be howling mad to not try everything to get both De Jong & De Ligt as a package deal next summer. De Ligt already switched to Raiola this summer and that fat cnut owes us big time - and maybe he wants to move Pogba and needs to offer something in return to get it done. Maybe City end up getting a transfer ban, Barca is stacked with guys like Busquets, Vidal, Rakitic, Arthur in midfield.
Bringing other type of DM to Matic would make out tactic selection wider and more unpredictable, that's a good thing.
The board showing they want exciting young players... what are we waiting for ?
The board showing they want exciting young players... what are we waiting for ?
I only watched the highlight but this kid is amazing. Well, we wont get him..
I only watched the highlight but this kid is amazing. Well, we wont get him..
I would agree on this and I don´t think we are so howling mad that we are not trying everything. Us trying does not mean that we will succeed though. And tbf, at this moment there is not much we have to offer except money. De Jong and De Ligt will be two of the hottest prospects on the market this summer and they will have their pick of where to go.
I predict they will go elsewhere due to their own preferences and the Caf having a meltdown; lambasting Ed, the Glazers and Fred the Red for not "being in for them".
The problem isn’t whether he’s a ‘Mourinho player’, it’s more about Mourinho’s style - and by associate Manchester United - not appealing to the player.
There were quotes from Jorginho last summer dismissing any links to us because of our style of football. Maybe not the exact same player, but you’d be pretty silly to not consider the reservations players of this particular skill-set have over joining us.
Financial incentives can only go so far.
There were quotes from Jorginho last summer dismissing any links to us because of our style of football. Maybe not the exact same player, but you’d be pretty silly to not consider the reservations players of this particular skill-set have over joining us.
Financial incentives can only go so far.
It's a fair point. But let's not forget that aside from the 'oh he's just not a Mourinho player' narrative - which I think is nonsense anyway - there's also a realistic chance that Mourinho's gone after this season. So I can definitely see various scenarios where they'd end up playing for United.
There's still a pretty decent emotional connection with United for Dutch players, more so than with City or Barca over the last five or ten years for instance. De Jong and De Ligt were 16 and 13 years old when Van Persie was a national hero winning the league with Fergie, followed by Van Gaal's period in charge, to Mourinho's United playing Ajax in the Europa League final in which De Ligt obviously featured.
And then Raiola is Dutch and he's now De Ligt's agent, at the same time two of his biggest deals have been with United in the last years... So I have some hope. We should offer them the next step in their career like Tottenham did with Eriksen and Vertonghen, conveniently we're also pretty much on their level with more money.
How far is a club like Barca willing to go for them given the players they already have and what perspective can they offer them? A club like Bayern would be a really nice fit for them too, but not if they're not willing to pay as much as the English clubs which I doubt they would. So all in all I would say it's not completely hopeless, but maybe I'm just deluding myself.
Don’t remember when was the last time young defensive midfielder got so much attention, and rightly so. Even someone like Busquets, who grew into the greatest DM of his generation was relatively unhyped. The kid is special.
If Barca manage to sell Dembele, they might find money for both. That said, you are making a good point. After failing to sign Jorginho, City will be desperate to buy Frenkie and will offer more money than Barca ot any other club. Madrid might get interested too.
Barcelonas problem is not so much to pay the transfer fees (it is just an asset investment, as it was with Dembele, watch them recoup that investment when they sell him to Liverpool nxt summer), its their spiralling wage budget. If they get rid of a couple of older players they can easily fit in De Jong there though. And De Ligt as well.
Apart from the fact that Mourinho hasn't been delivering on the pitch with results and style of play, I don't think we'll able to attract any of the young talent in World football unless money is the only driving factor. De Jong is an undeniable talent and would be a shame if he goes to Barca, Madrid or City with us not even trying.
Getting De Jong and De Ligt would be a start to something we would be building towards and promoting some of the youth would work wonders if we had a manager that knew how to nurture talent
If only our squad for next season were the following.
GK
De Gea - V Captain
Romero
Grant
Defenders
De Ligt/ Skriniar/ Koulibaly - New
Dalot
Shaw
Lindelof
Bailly
Tuanzebe
Foshu Mensah
Central Midfielders
Pogba - Captain
De Jong - New
Fred
Pereira
Herrera
Angel Gomes
Forwards/ Strikers
Lukaku
Martial
Rashford
O Dembele/ Pulisic - New
Mason Greenwood
Chong
Lingard
Mata
Need to be sold immediately
Fellaini
Matic
Smalling
Jones
Rojo
Young
Valencia
Sanchez
Getting De Jong and De Ligt would be a start to something we would be building towards and promoting some of the youth would work wonders if we had a manager that knew how to nurture talent
If only our squad for next season were the following.
GK
De Gea - V Captain
Romero
Grant
Defenders
De Ligt/ Skriniar/ Koulibaly - New
Dalot
Shaw
Lindelof
Bailly
Tuanzebe
Foshu Mensah
Central Midfielders
Pogba - Captain
De Jong - New
Fred
Pereira
Herrera
Angel Gomes
Forwards/ Strikers
Lukaku
Martial
Rashford
O Dembele/ Pulisic - New
Mason Greenwood
Chong
Lingard
Mata
Need to be sold immediately
Fellaini
Matic
Smalling
Jones
Rojo
Young
Valencia
Sanchez
I very much doubt that Liverpool will pay so much. Barca will lose at least 20-30m on Dembele if he doesn't improve.
Yeah, thats probably a fair assessment tbf. I should have written "the major part of". Without having a clear picture of exactly how Dembele´s fee was structured I would guess something like that as well. You could argue if its because he has flopped or its because he has burned two years of his contract which will also devalue his transfer fee. Its probably a combination of both.
Regardless, Its still not a major loss on Barcelona´s part though even if the original transfer fee looked insane.
I was trying to make the point that there is not really that much downside or even cost to invest money in a talented young player nowadays. Even a Dembele who has arguably flopped (at least compared to the expectations and his transfer fee) will - if sold - return the main part of the money that Barca invested in him to the club.
EDIT
To keep this on thread: This is just the reason why I dont think it will be a money-issue if we dont get De Jong and/or De Ligt next summer. There is plenty of evidence that the Glazers are more than happy to invest large amount of money in a young player if he is good. Woodward´s quote about Varane should be seen from that perspective.
If we dont get them its not because we were not in for them or would not pay the required transfer fee/wages.
It will be because they choose to go elsewhere.
An absolute dream that. Shame it is unlikely though
I think you're deluding yourself. As a Dutchman, I can't say Van Persie was a national hero over here back then. There is hardly any emotional connection between the Netherlands and Man United. There is very much a connection between Ajax and Barcelona for the obvious reasons. Frenkie already said in the past he wants to play with Messi. I believe Barca will prefer to get De Ligt and aren't going to buy both. Pep's presence at Man City will give them a better chance to get him than United. The way Pep plays is a style Frenkie likes to play. Much more than the way Mourinho plays with United atm.
According to the Mirror City will sign him for £60m.
Frenkie, what a great name.
Going to hold off on the hype.
We all thought Weigl was going to be the ultimate beast CM.
We all thought Weigl was going to be the ultimate beast CM.
And that Serbia Kid last summer. The truth is, a young player is far more likely to not make it than to make it. He looks tidy but being a starting player for 40 odd games in one of the top clubs is a huge step up for him.
This is even more stupid than what I posted because other than the obvious historical connection between Ajax and Barca (but really not so much in the last ten years like I said) none of it is true.
if anything Van Gaal's stint hurt United's link to Dutch players because of his perceived treatment back here.
de jong literally talks about how he used to watch every single one of barca's games under pep, and recently how the players he watched on youtube were Messi, Iniesta, Xavi.
De Ligt I think would be more keen on United than de Jong, based on his mentions of Vidic and Ferdinand in the past (though also Terry and Moore)
but not because of Van Persie. unlike De Jong, De Ligt is an Ajax kid through and through. His heroes growing up would have been Vertonghen, Suarez, and from the Dutch team Sneijder and maybe Robben. Van Persie in his United days wasn't loved like that in and around Amsterdam. His performances for the national team simply weren't that good when it mattered, when Sneijder's and Robben's were instead.
And saying "to Mourinho's United playing Ajax in the Europa League final" is absolutely a laughable point to try to make. Mourinho didn't win any admirers in Holland with that performance. If anything that hurt United's reputation in Holland, even though it was a deserved win.
Yeah well when you put it like that it's an assessment I can't really disagree with too much to be honest, other than maybe the RVP part because everyone loved him except perhaps the most bitter Ajax loving twats who of course also never wasted a good moment to push the Huntelaar agenda.
uhhh alright? Van Persie simply didn't perform to his club level in any of our tournament knockout stages.
I would hope we try out Gomes in that role. Initially I wanted him to stay as a 10, but my only constant criticism of his is that he can hide in games. In CM, that criticism goes away and he's always great at keeping possession and handles any pressure with class. I don't think he'll ever be as good of a passer (long range passing is inconsistent) as De Jong or even Garner, but I do hold his technique above practically everyone save for like 5 or so players.
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That's pretty much what I meant with bitter twats I guess. The guy scored goals against big teams like Ivory Coast in 2006, France in 2008, Germany 2012, Spain 2014. All time leading top scorer of the Netherlands while not playing as a #9 until he was 26 years old, and you come up with shite like that. Which again isn't even really true, watch back the semi-final 2010 against Uruguay for example and tell me again he didn't reach club level.
Frenkie knows of course. But then again aren't his whole family Feyenoord fans anyway?
https://www.voetbalzone.nl/doc.asp?uid=321261
The hype around this guy is crazy.
In fairness, compared to other over hyped youngsters he does look extremely talented. I think he is gonna be the dogs bollocks and if and when we miss out on him because I think we will, a lot of us will be pretty pissed. Shit happens.
uhhh mate. what stage of the tournaments were every single one of those goals in? what stage did I say he didn't perform in?
so? He probably has the most minutes as a striker in Holland's history as well. That Huntelaar who you (rightly) implied wasn't Holland star material is second on that same list. Huntelaar is 8 goals behind Van Persie with 26 caps fewer. In fact, Van Persie scored a goal every 147 minutes for Holland; Huntelaar every 104. And I'm not saying Huntelaar should have been played ahead of him, I'm far more a fan of the type of striker Van Persie is (and for what it's worth I felt Van Persie was the best nr 9 in the world alongside Zlatan for about 2 seasons of his career). My point is, though, that that record doesn't necessarily support the case for his performances being good in the way you're implying.
maybe you're right, I genuinely can't remember much of our performance that night. I remember us not playing too well, scoring an amazing goal, and me being a bucket of nerves on Museumplein.
So asked about a particular player, a national great, he says he's "kind of always been a fan, so it would have been nice to play against him". In your mind that increases the chance of him choosing a move to United?
Yeah his family is a Feyenoord-family, but he himself turned the club down as a kid for Willem 2. He also said in an interview that really his family aren't that die-hard; his father's main football idol is by far Cruijff. De Jong has said (when he was 14) that Feyenoord was his favourite Dutch team, but it's pretty obvious in every way that De Jong grew up supporting Pep's Barca.
According to the Mirror he will sign for City over Barcelona. And in another article on the same day, he will choose Barcelona over Liverpool. Both articles written in the Sunday Mirror by Steve Bates..
The other story by Bates is about Barcelona beating Liverpool to the signing of Matthijs de Ligt.According to the Mirror he will sign for City over Barcelona. And in another article on the same day, he will choose Barcelona over Liverpool. Both articles written in the Sunday Mirror by Steve Bates..
They are right though. The Cruyff-Guardiola-Xavi lineage is much more likely to appeal to De Jong than RvP-United. Guardiola is the heir of Cruyff's understanding of football, played as a No 6, helped Xavi become an all-time great, created a team that De Jog admired, etc. If Barca can't get De Jong, chances are he'll end up at City.
He deserves the hype.
As long as we have Mourinho we will not be buying players like him.
That's a bit of a generic premise isn't it? A young player who is all the hype, is not quite there. And it's true, in general.
However, if you applied that same logic on Mbappé without really watching him, and hold it off, you would have looked pretty silly by now.
So you have to look at the individual. And the thing with Frenkie is, the hype was already there last season, and one could have hold it off. But this season, he's proving it isn't just hype, as he's now playing in the big games, internationally and in the CL, and he is the anti-Özil - he doesn't disappear there but steps up like it's nothing. If you play two games against France with their destroyer midfield, and they aim at you and fail and you bossed that midfield and were the main pivot, the quality is inherent. It's for everyone to see.
Maybe it's important to explain that in no way I claimed that this wasn't the case. Or that I was trying to say we have a better chance than City or Barca to sign this fella - read back the original post and see how I picked my words pretty carefully.
Point was simply to illustrate that our our chances on maybe signing De Jong or De Ligt aren't as bad or 100% hopeless/impossible like some people make it out to be. Of course I can see why those clubs you mentioned would be favourites, but for example the Ajax/City connection isn't really that strong obviously, other than Pep being coach there (for how long?). How often have they done business together? Ajax knocked City out of Europe once, that was pretty awesome!
And neither has the Ajax-Barca connection been that strong over the last ten years. Rijkaard was a long time ago, other than fringe players like Vermaelen, Cillessen and of course superstar Suarez it's been very meager wouldn't you agree?
And don't forget what those cnunts did to Johan Cruijff... You can say Van Gaal's treatment by United somehow makes the club less appealing for Dutch players, which I think is nonsense by the way. Importantly, the reality is that cnuts like Sandra Rosell completely ruined the Barca connection for Cruijff and nobody at that club really stood up for him. It got to a point where Cruijff didn't even want to be honorary president anymore and gave back that title. And in the years before his death the conflict rose to a point where he didn't even go to watch a Barca - Ajax CL game anymore despite living in Barcelona - but this disgusting treatment of Cruijff by Barca who are supposedly 'mes que un club' doesn't get mentioned by you.
https://www.nu.nl/voetbal/3572576/cruijff-vanwege-ruzie-met-rosell-niet-bij-Barcelona-Ajax.html
http://www.espn.com/soccer/news/story/_/id/1556399/johan-cruyff-sandro-rosell-continue-Barcelona-row
This makes the sanctimonious drooling over St. Pep and the magical Barca and Ajax connection by both you and @Ajaxsuarez a bit funny. Obviously at the same I very much an understand why you guys being Ajax fans would say some of the things and you make plenty of fair points.
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Yeah, the hype is real on this one. As sure to be the real thing as there is. I would be shocked if he wouldnt be considered one of the best midfielders in the coming years. Wise career move and staying injury free, sky is the limit really. Once he plays for a top club (no disrespect to Ajax) under a top manager, with CL football and European Championship and World Cup with Netherlands, thats when he will explode and cement his place at the top.
Think it is pretty clear why De Jong would prefer to go to Barca. And why he might wish to work with Guardiola. You were told that he admired Guardiola's Barca, he's on record saying that he would like to play with Messi and that he watches Messi, Xavi and Iniesta in youtube. That Ajax-Barca relashionship isn't as strong now as it used to be is a moot point. Ajax wouldn't refuse to sell to Barca on the grounds you are describing.
Of course, it is not 100% impossible that he signs with us in the summer. What about 90%? Any financial offer could be matched by City if Barca do not want to pay what is required. City are absolutely desperate to sign a replacement for Fernandinho and he ticks all boxes, they dont need other players and are probably ready to over pay for him, Jose/United will be after several players and over paying for De Jong is not likely to be on the cards.
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